[quote]theo wrote:
While expecting our third child, which turned out to be a son, my wife and I discussed much of the same things mentioned here but as the date approached we were both undecided. I leaned towards no cirumcision. After his birth he and I were lined up to see the doc for something which included circumcision and I watched in horror as the young obgyn made a mess of the screaming infant before us. It was an easy decision after that. our son is a normal 10 yr old boy now neither he nor his parents having been traumatized by circumcision. If he wants to be cut he can make that decision himself.[/quote]
Traumatized? Don’t you need to have some concept of the real world to be “traumatized” by it?
[quote]
Traumatized? Don’t you need to have some concept of the real world to be “traumatized” by it?[/quote]
Dude,
Our 4th child was taken cesearian 6 weeks early because of our doctors blunder. She was in neonatal intensive care for two weeks. Unless you experience this you will never understand. This is trauma. With 4 kids we are well aquated with trauma. I’ve watched 4 people die either with me or next to me.
I think you need to find someone else to verbally bully. My guess is you don’t have any children. Legit kids anyway
Traumatized? Don’t you need to have some concept of the real world to be “traumatized” by it?
Dude,
Our 4th child was taken cesearian 6 weeks early because of our doctors blunder. She was in neonatal intensive care for two weeks. Unless you experience this you will never understand. This is trauma. With 4 kids we are well aquated with trauma. I’ve watched 4 people die either with me or next to me.
I think you need to find someone else to verbally bully. My guess is you don’t have any children. Legit kids anyway
[/quote]
Bully? I am talking about an infant. An infant can’t be “traumatized” by a circumcision. I am sorry for every bad event you have ever had in your life, but none of that had anything to do with a circumcision in and of itself.
In fact, when you wrote this, were you of the impression that no one else had experienced bad things in their life?
Uh, is this where I go, “I know you are but what am I”? This topic is about circumcisions. I doubt anyone is trivializing any emotional event you went through with the birth of your kids…but that was NOT the topic.
Many guys that have NOT been cut eventually start getting rips and tears in their foreskin because it dries out just like the skin elsewhere. When the man gets hard and the skin stretches it can actually open up,start bleeding and be painful to the point you wouldnt even want to use your super-sensitive glans.
Having the operation done as an adult is one of the more painful operations as described by the guys who do it. It literally immobolizes them for days on end.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Don’t know if this has been brought up yet:
Many guys that have NOT been cut eventually start getting rips and tears in their foreskin because it dries out just like the skin elsewhere. When the man gets hard and the skin stretches it can actually open up,start bleeding and be painful to the point you wouldnt even want to use your super-sensitive glans.
[/quote]
Wow, also this is something utterly new to me. At what age can I expect to see my foreskin rip?
To speak the truth, I have worked in an old people’s home and never have I seen that what you describe. I have’nt even heard of it before now. Men have lived and multiplied with and without foreskin for thousands of years. Foreskin is not more relevant than the blind gut. Physiologically, that is.
Traumatized? Don’t you need to have some concept of the real world to be “traumatized” by it?
[/quote]
Well, think about it like this for a minute: You have no experience in life whatsoever except for warmth and feeling secure (one would hope) to suddenly being stabbed by something very sharp (needle) and then cut w/ something. Anywhere on the body. It has to be traumatic. It can’t be fun, most certainly.
[quote]Carrie77 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
theo wrote:
Traumatized? Don’t you need to have some concept of the real world to be “traumatized” by it?
Well, think about it like this for a minute: You have no experience in life whatsoever except for warmth and feeling secure (one would hope) to suddenly being stabbed by something very sharp (needle) and then cut w/ something. Anywhere on the body. It has to be traumatic. It can’t be fun, most certainly.
[/quote]
Psychological trauma implies a lasting memory of the event that harms you in some way. You could go through the worst experience of your life, but if your memory were wiped afterwards, how “traumatic” could it be? That was the point being made. Babies don’t have a lasting memory of a circumcision. Not one man walking around remembers when he was circumcized. Therefore, while it may not be pleasant, it also can’t be “traumatic”.
Psychological trauma implies a lasting memory of the event that harms you in some way. You could go through the worst experience of your life, but if your memory were wiped afterwards, how “traumatic” could it be? That was the point being made. Babies don’t have a lasting memory of a circumcision. Not one man walking around remembers when he was circumcized. Therefore, while it may not be pleasant, it also can’t be “traumatic”.[/quote]
Hmm. But can’t the mind block out events that you can’t deal with? Something along the lines of repressed memories?
Psychological trauma implies a lasting memory of the event that harms you in some way. You could go through the worst experience of your life, but if your memory were wiped afterwards, how “traumatic” could it be? That was the point being made. Babies don’t have a lasting memory of a circumcision. Not one man walking around remembers when he was circumcized. Therefore, while it may not be pleasant, it also can’t be “traumatic”.
Hmm. But can’t the mind block out events that you can’t deal with? Something along the lines of repressed memories?[/quote]
Are you implying that infancy gets blocked out? Who remembers their first diaper change? Without any concept of reality, you can’t be “traumatized” by it. That would at least need some concept of time and linear memory. Babies don’t have either even though they are working on it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Are you implying that infancy gets blocked out? Who remembers their first diaper change? Without any concept of reality, you can’t be “traumatized” by it. That would at least need some concept of time and linear memory. Babies don’t have either even though they are working on it.[/quote]
No, no, not at all. I’m asking.
Although, my brother remembers as a newborn wanting to be back in my mother’s arms. (Everyone passed him around, of course, as happens after births.) He also remembers the little christening-type gown that he wore at a few months old.
I realize the guy is the exception - I doubt many more ppl remember that far back. I remember when the oldest of my brothers was born. He and I are 20 mos apart.
In any case, you taught me something about babies & memory. So thnaks for that.
Professor X, the definition of traumatize is to wound or injure. Playing with the semantics of the word (“psychological trauma entails ___”) has no bearing on whether or not an infant’s life could be affected by “trauma.” While I agree that most or all mature adults have no memory of their early childhood, that lack of memory does not imply any lack of pertinency to adulthood.
I do not know whether or not circumcision, specifically, causes (or could cause, potentially) any notable changes in adult behavior, but you are treading thin ice when you say that an infant cannot be traumatized simply because of the definition of the word.
Studies have shown that early childhood experiences (can’t remember the exact ages, but for the most part before memory develops) actually determine many the parenting skills of that human being later in adult life. Not to mention that Freud (whom I do not strictly follow, but as you know influenced modern psychology and therefore modern medicine greatly) had similar assertions.
While I somewhat doubt that circumcision is traumatic enough to affect adult life significantly, any possibility is enough to steer me clear of the practice for my future children. And by the way, I also disagree with your assertion that infant circumcision circumvents any possibility of reduced sensitivity.
Not only will the calloused skin develop over time, the bottom line is that any reduced sensitivity would not be significant enough to induce adaptation-response nerve growth.
It’s pretty simple…if there are a finite number of nerve endings in the penis past a given point, whether that point is age 1 or age 15, and there is no protective covering, they will be worn down more quickly by constant mild stimulation/friction.
[quote]conwict wrote:
I do not know whether or not circumcision, specifically, causes (or could cause, potentially) any notable changes in adult behavior, but you are treading thin ice when you say that an infant cannot be traumatized simply because of the definition of the word.[/quote]
No, I’m not, and we aren’t just talking about an infant but a NEWBORN. NEWBORNS have no memory of their birth and thusly have no memory of a circumcision done at that time.
[quote]
Studies have shown that early childhood experiences (can’t remember the exact ages, but for the most part before memory develops) actually determine many the parenting skills of that human being later in adult life. Not to mention that Freud (whom I do not strictly follow, but as you know influenced modern psychology and therefore modern medicine greatly) had similar assertions.[/quote]
Early childhood experiences are not the same as a NEWBORN fresh from the womb. Kids are like sponges. the moment they begin to process images, their minds are building connections. NEWBORNS are barely aware of their own existance.
There is no possibility. No kid remembers his BIRTH.
[quote]
Not only will the calloused skin develop over time, the bottom line is that any reduced sensitivity would not be significant enough to induce adaptation-response nerve growth
It’s pretty simple…if there are a finite number of nerve endings in the penis past a given point, whether that point is age 1 or age 15, and there is no protective covering, they will be worn down more quickly by constant mild stimulation/friction.[/quote]
Worn down? Nerve endings are not worn down. These aren’t finger nails we are talking about and nerves can regenerate to a degree. That chance is even more likely in a newborn. There are millions of men who have had circumcisions. Don’t you think we would know above all others whether we feel as if sex just isn’t where it should be?
[quote]Carrie77 wrote:
…Although, my brother remembers as a newborn wanting to be back in my mother’s arms. (Everyone passed him around, of course, as happens after births.) He also remembers the little christening-type gown that he wore at a few months old.
…[/quote]