Christianity and War

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
62

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Journeyman wrote:
pushharder wrote:
You’d better do a little more biblical research on exactly who “God’s children” are. To become a child of God, one must accept his Son.

Lord, when did we see thee sick or in prison?

Medical Mary Jane is available in Iowa?

[/quote]

hahahaha, I get it. You think I’m a stoner. I was referencing Matthew 25. Luke 10 has a story that I also find helpful.

If we want to be lawyerly, I will concede that Jew, Muslims, Hindu and atheists are ‘merely’ Gods creation in his own image. If you want such a lawyerly interpretation, I guess that an aborted fetus cannot be one of God’s children. For that matter, neither can a child who has only been baptized.

63

[quote]Journeyman wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And, there’s those darn swords again.

Yes, two of them. Not hundreds like a Barrabus or thousands like a Roman governor. Defend your home, don’t send an Imperial force to take lands thousands of miles from your home.

Jesus must be weeping when he hears talk of ‘shock and awe’ referring to explosives , ‘drain the swamp’ referring to how we treat ‘sand nigg’, err Gods children. Do you honestly believe that the Prince of Peace would have anything to do with this?

I don’t believe that for a second.[/quote]

May I rely on allies to help defend my home?

65

[quote]Sloth wrote:
And they do hate us because of our freedoms.[/quote]

Rubbish. First and foremost, the majority hate you because you bomb the living crap outta them.

67

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And they do hate us because of our freedoms.

Rubbish. First and foremost, the majority hate you because you bomb the living crap outta them.

Sorry, Mak, they hated us long, long before the first bomb ever fell.[/quote]

That’s why I said the majority. I don’t see the majority of people over there as extremists hating the western way of life. I see the people in charge as those types.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
May I rely on allies to help defend my home?[/quote]

You tell me. What is the Christian response? I am some crazy Obama supporter that is swayed by liberation theology and evolutionary biology, so I am clearly some nutcase that doesn’t think straight.

I agree with Vance that self-defense is acceptable. I am not a Quaker. I do agree with Gandhi, and Sun Tzu for that matter, that a military victory is almost as bad as a military defeat. The wisest course is almost always to find a peaceful solution.

I think that Jesus showed that he didn’t care much about earthly power. He was tempted by Satan and refused earthly power and pleasures. He blessed the weak, the poor, and the peace makers.

He advocated repeatedly turning the other cheek when wronged. He tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. His only anger was reserved for people that abused their power for personal gain.

I can’t see him signing on to a war where a ‘secretary of defense’ brags about shock and awe.

I can see Jesus working in kind acts of soldiers and civilians who find humanity toward each other. I can also see evil at work in the hatred spawned by the war.

All things considered, I cannot see Jesus advocating war, but I can see him doing his best in a bad situation. If we are to be Christ-like, that is what I think we should do.

69

I was actually interested in your response. If it’s just that I help my neighbor defend himself, what about someone in the next city over? In antoher state? In another nation?

70

[quote]Journeyman wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
journeyman you sound like a muslim. hiding in sheep’s clothing.

otherwise you like to pick and chose from the bible and attend the hippie free love church of some of the bible

I suspect that Jesus would have been viewed much the same way that we tend to view hippies. He was out of the mainstream and rejected the status quo. He hung around with the social outcasts and rejected both the organized religion of his day (the scribes and Pharisees) and the authority of the Roman occupiers (he dismissed Pontius Pilot).

But he did not engage in the violent response of Barrabus. Jesus would have been a progressive, not a conservative. After all, he organized his followers in what was basically a communes. The early Church was often organized communally, so they were communists long before Marx existed.

Even Martin Luther said that it was better to be ruled by a wise Muslim than a foolish Christian. So being called a Muslim is a lot better than being called a fool.

So, that was the nicest thing anyone has said to me today.[/quote]

71

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I was actually interested in your response. If it’s just that I help my neighbor defend himself, what about someone in the next city over? In antoher state? In another nation? [/quote]

Well there is a difference whether you take a rifle and head over there to aid your brothers in need, as many did in the Spain resistance, or if your government routinely throws a small country against the wall.

I seriously doubt though that you really see, or ever saw, the Iraqi or the Vietnamese as your brothers in need, and I would call you a liar if you claimed that you honestly believe that people like Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger, Rumsfeld or Bush ever acted because of that reason.

72

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I was actually interested in your response. If it’s just that I help my neighbor defend himself, what about someone in the next city over? In antoher state? In another nation?

Well there is a difference whether you take a rifle and head over there to aid your brothers in need, as many did in the Spain resistance, or if your government routinely throws a small country against the wall.

I seriously doubt though that you really see, or ever saw, the Iraqi or the Vietnamese as your brothers in need, and I would call you a liar if you claimed that you honestly believe that people like Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger, Rumsfeld or Bush ever acted because of that reason.
[/quote]

Really? So you don’t believe the intent to aid anti-communists, or anti baathists and kurds, could possibly be real? Not at all? But your answer does leave them open to redemption if you could believe they saw themselves as fighting an oppresive regime or ideology. Aiding those living under it or threatened with it’s victory.

The first part of your answer seems to leave the door open for interventionism.

73

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I was actually interested in your response. If it’s just that I help my neighbor defend himself, what about someone in the next city over? In antoher state? In another nation?

Well there is a difference whether you take a rifle and head over there to aid your brothers in need, as many did in the Spain resistance, or if your government routinely throws a small country against the wall.

I seriously doubt though that you really see, or ever saw, the Iraqi or the Vietnamese as your brothers in need, and I would call you a liar if you claimed that you honestly believe that people like Johnson, Nixon, Kissinger, Rumsfeld or Bush ever acted because of that reason.

Really? So you don’t believe the intent to aid anti-communists, or anti baathists and kurds, could possibly be real? Not at all? But your answer does leave them open to redemption if you could believe they saw themselves as fighting an oppresive regime or ideology. Aiding those living under it or threatened with it’s victory.

The first part of your answer seems to leave the door open for interventionism.
[/quote]

I do not pretend to have all the answers, I just have an uneasy feeling with American Christian that equate the American military with God´s army and imagine a hun-gutting Jesus.

I think that if American Christians really thoroughly searched their souls before going to war and only even followed the just war theory, the world would be a different, and dare I say better, place.

I also do not think that an American Christian can ignore history.

You fought the Vietnamese and basically China for decades and what good did it do? And yet, decades of trade and peaceful relations later and they become more and more like you.

Why shed the blood if there is a better way?

As a sidenote, I do not like the Nazi card in this argument, I do know that you did not draw it, but Jews searching for a safe place where turned away from Americas shores, yet in hindsight the war is justified in part with their struggle. Not very Christian.

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[quote]orion wrote:

I do not pretend to have all the answers, I just have an uneasy feeling with American Christian that equate the American military with God´s army and imagine a hun-gutting Jesus.[/quote]

No, that’s understandable. I’d rather see Christians be the most peaceful non-pacifists in existence. But that still leaves the reality of needing to defend against well trained, well organized, well funded, and well armed (including planes, navies, armor, etc.) regimes. So I see the role of soldier as honorable. Politicians, and their short-sightedness, not so much.

[quote]
I think that if American Christians really thoroughly searched their souls before going to war and only even followed the just war theory, the world would be a different, and dare I say better, place.[/quote]

Oh, I’m not so sure about being a better place. Maybe for those situated geographically, and armed well enough to fend off communist and other despotic advances on their own.

Who knows what would’ve been without an exhausting war first. Maybe a greater population living under a more arrogant and fresher communist regime?

I have my own reasons for being pretty darn non-interventionist. And it’s not because, let’s say, aiding revolutionary N. Koreans would be immoral. Can anyone say that? A starved populace, literally inprisoned

Well, turned away or not, should they have been left to their fate in the Nazi camps? What was the moral thing to do? Proudly boasting how peaceful and pacifist we all are while refusing their (and others) pleas for help?

Would’ve it been justifiable if it was our next door neighbor? I suspect the Rockwells and the Rothbards of the world would say there was a moral case for bringing violence against those aggressors, in the aid of our neighbor. But, aren’t they anti-statists? So why ignore oppresion, brutality, and mass murder because there’s another state involved? Because the victims aren’t immediate neighbors? Sort of weird reason for being non-interventionist.

75

1st, I really appreciate the respectful tone of this thread. With only a few exceptions, people have stayed away from personal attacks. I hope this can continue.

2nd, I find myself agreeing almost completely with what Journeyman has said.

This thread seems to be focused around two questions 1) Is/was the Iraqi war a “just war” in the Christian sense, and 2) Can Christians ever really support war.

I don’t pretend that I have any special knowledge of God’s will. I find myself asking this question often, and when I ask the second of these questions I often have found myself reflecting on Mark 10: 17-31. Here is the new king james version I quickly found online (I prefer the Oxford study bible myself, but this version will do):

[i][center]Mark 10:17-31 (New King James Version)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, ?Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life??
18 So Jesus said to him, ?Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ?Do not commit adultery,? ?Do not murder,? ?Do not steal,? ?Do not bear false witness,? ?Do not defraud,? ?Honor your father and your mother.??[a]
20 And he answered and said to Him, ?Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.?
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, ?One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.?
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
With God All Things Are Possible

23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, ?How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!? 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, ?Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches[b,] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.?
26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, ?Who then can be saved??
27 But Jesus looked at them and said, ?With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.?
28 Then Peter began to say to Him, ?See, we have left all and followed You.?
29 So Jesus answered and said, ?Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[c] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel?s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time?houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions?and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.?*[/i][/center]

I feel like Jesus gave us the example of what we should be. Let them beat us and crucify us. Yet I also feel like the rich man in the story is a good man. But to be a better Christian I feel like we should live out the example Jesus gave us. Jesus didn’t “fight” or “defend,” he prayed for those who crucified him. That said, I’m no Christ. I’ve fought and defended myself; I’m not sure I was wrong in doing so. I’d like to think that I need not ask forgiveness for those actions, but I’m not so sure. Anyway, I guess to me, the question is one of how much like Christ am I? Would Christ go to war or would he let the aggressor hit us and turn the other cheek? I’ve no answers, but I’m hoping I can find the right questions.

*I centered and Italicized simply to differentiate it from my own text. Hopefully to make my long-ish post easier to read

76

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Good post Journeyman, but I believe the OP is referring to ALL wars being unconscionable if one is to consider himself a Christian (this is the implication I gathered, and I apologize if I am mistaken). The Iraq war is indeed, imo, debatable. All wars, though? That would have to fall into the category of hopeless idealism. To use the simplest example: I cannot, as a Catholic, believe that Christ would have ever condoned Americans NOT doing anything to stop Nazi Germany, even if we were not directly provoked.[/quote]

If you think about how wars are started then yes, all wars are indeed immoral! Aggression is wrong. Defense is not. Preemptive wars are wrong. Defense against them are not.

In this regard the Iraqis who continue to fight against the American military, etc. are moral and the invading countries are not.

There have been no “just” American wars. Indeed, in the history of war there is no such ideal.

78

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

If you think about how wars are started then yes, all wars are indeed immoral! Aggression is wrong. Defense is not. Preemptive wars are wrong. Defense against them are not.

In this regard the Iraqis who continue to fight against the American military, etc. are moral and the invading countries are not.

There have been no “just” American wars. Indeed, in the history of war there is no such ideal.[/quote]

Ok, aggression is wrong, defense is not. Let’s stick with Iraq. Were the Kuwaitis justified? What about Kurds, and anti-baathists? Where they justified to physically resist Sadam’s regime and his state aggression? If so, would they be justified in forming alliances to give themselves a fighting chance? If so, why would justifiable alliances stop at a border?

80

[quote]pushharder wrote:
To remain intellectually honest to his bogus argument he would have to say, “No, the Kuwaiti’s were morally bound to repel Saddam entirely on their own. No help allowed from the Big, Bad Guy from North America. If they wanted help they should have got it from Bahrain and Qatar”.[/quote]

Yes, you are right. You have no right to force me to defend someone I do not wish to. How can that be done without putting a gun to my head?