Christ Would Oppose USA?

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 3:17am

[quote]John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?

And lets not forget Islam, lots of tolerance for other beliefs there.

We have no idea whether or not you are going to hell.

Hell is for people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and many many others who committed crimes against humanity and it is gives comfort to victims who believe that although these people did not suffer any consequences on earth during their lifetimes, they are suffering eternally for their crimes.

That’s the reason for the belief in hell. Whether it is a real place or a concept, it exists because of all the injustice in the world.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion, but this is one of the major problems I have with organized Christianity.

According to what many teach (and John S. mentioned this earlier), we all fall short of the glory of god, in other words, we all sin and are deserving of hellfire. The only way that we can escape this is by professing Jesus is the one and only son of God and asking for his forgiveness (repentance).

Also, once you repent your sins are automatically/instantaneously forgiven (after all Jesus died for all the sins of mankind through all of eternity).

So, according to this line of thinking, if Hitler (or really any mass murdering, child molesting rapist) repented with his last dying breath his sins, he would be automatically forgiven and he would get to go to heaven. He would not suffer for his crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, someone else could live a relatively moral life. They could make it a point to avoid lying, never kill or sexually assault anyone, never steal, be faithful to their spouse, help those in need, etc… but never profess Jesus as the son of God. And according to the above line of thinking, this person (who was an overall good person) would burn in hell for all eternity.

Does that really make sense?

I think Jesus was a great man and one of the most influential people to ever live (supposing he did). But people (church leaders, Constantine, etc…) have long since realized his influence and added terms of allegiance which people must adhere to in order to control them.

If hitler was to truly proclaim Jesus was the sun of God then yes he would go to heaven. Jesus died for all of our sins great and small. His forgiveness is that great. If you look at the bible it is not all that hard to get into heaven. Yes there have been things added to the different denominations that why I choose no denomination I get my word from the bible and know were else.
[/quote]

But are you not even the slightest bit curious where the stories in your bible came from? What the original text was that was miss edited, badly translated, deliberately changed, cribbed from older legends etc. actually was?

Why would the NIV have the correct wording given that it has been changed multiple times since the stories were first written down?

If you are happy to take a moral code by skimming the top of the stories and if it makes you live a good life then that is cool by me but from the second that I discovered that there were different versions of the stories in the Bible (as quite a young kid) I was fascinated to try and find out more about where all the stories came from.

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 3:24am

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

So, the evil man gets to go to heaven, and the good man has to go to hell?

Heaven for the climate, hell for the company. If Fred Phelps is going to heaven, and George Carlin to hell, I know where I want to end up.

What’s the incentive to live a moral life then?

Albert Schweitzer said it best: “Reverence for Life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, assisting, and enhancing life and that to destroy, harm, or to hinder life is evil.”

Basically, most of the atrocities that have been done in the name of God use this same general concept as their justification (regardless of denomination or sect).

Google “Lord’s Resistance Army.” Atrocious people can find justification for their atrocity anywhere. Or as Plato said, “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.”

I agree with you.

I was not arguing that religion is what makes a person good or bad, nor am I in favor of living an immoral life.

My point was that, most religions/mythologies hold a concept of hell as an afterlife meant to punish those who were wicked in life, and heaven as a place where the good are rewarded.

If christianity is suggesting that the deeds committed in life have no bearing on where one goes in the afterlife, and the single determining factor is simply whether or not that individual utters a specific phrase, then why so much emphasis on right and wrong?

This suggests that the only thing punishable by hellfire is not uttering a phrase of words and that all other offenses (pretty much breaking every single one of the ten commandments, multiple times possibly) are forgiveable. Those are some messed up priorities IMO.[/quote]

You’re looking at it the wrong way round. You have to think from the point of view of if you were making up a religion and wanted to compete against the existing religions (which is exactly the situation that confronted the authors of the early writings that the New Testament comes from,) then what is one of the most important things that you need to do to ensure the survival of your religion?

You need to make it a sin not to totally believe everything in the religion especially the myths surrounding the central figures.

If you had a religion that said be nice to each other, but don’t worry so much about who the head honcho is or why then pretty quickly Darwinian natural selection evolves other religions over the top of yours.

Varqanir · February 9, 2009, 6:47am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

You’re looking at it the wrong way round. You have to think from the point of view of if you were making up a religion and wanted to compete against the existing religions (which is exactly the situation that confronted the authors of the early writings that the New Testament comes from,) then what is one of the most important things that you need to do to ensure the survival of your religion?

You need to make it a sin not to totally believe everything in the religion especially the myths surrounding the central figures.

If you had a religion that said be nice to each other, but don’t worry so much about who the head honcho is or why then pretty quickly Darwinian natural selection evolves other religions over the top of yours.[/quote]

Well… it also sometimes helps when rulers of vast empires gaze at the sun too long, have sudden conversions to your religion, declare it to be the state religion, edit the holy books so that they align with the official dogma, outlaw all the sects that don’t adhere to this dogma, and declare all the other religions in the empire treasonous and unlawful.

But how often does that happen?

John_S1 · February 9, 2009, 6:56am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?

And lets not forget Islam, lots of tolerance for other beliefs there.

We have no idea whether or not you are going to hell.

Hell is for people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and many many others who committed crimes against humanity and it is gives comfort to victims who believe that although these people did not suffer any consequences on earth during their lifetimes, they are suffering eternally for their crimes.

That’s the reason for the belief in hell. Whether it is a real place or a concept, it exists because of all the injustice in the world.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion, but this is one of the major problems I have with organized Christianity.

According to what many teach (and John S. mentioned this earlier), we all fall short of the glory of god, in other words, we all sin and are deserving of hellfire. The only way that we can escape this is by professing Jesus is the one and only son of God and asking for his forgiveness (repentance).

Also, once you repent your sins are automatically/instantaneously forgiven (after all Jesus died for all the sins of mankind through all of eternity).

So, according to this line of thinking, if Hitler (or really any mass murdering, child molesting rapist) repented with his last dying breath his sins, he would be automatically forgiven and he would get to go to heaven. He would not suffer for his crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, someone else could live a relatively moral life. They could make it a point to avoid lying, never kill or sexually assault anyone, never steal, be faithful to their spouse, help those in need, etc… but never profess Jesus as the son of God. And according to the above line of thinking, this person (who was an overall good person) would burn in hell for all eternity.

Does that really make sense?

I think Jesus was a great man and one of the most influential people to ever live (supposing he did). But people (church leaders, Constantine, etc…) have long since realized his influence and added terms of allegiance which people must adhere to in order to control them.

If hitler was to truly proclaim Jesus was the sun of God then yes he would go to heaven. Jesus died for all of our sins great and small. His forgiveness is that great. If you look at the bible it is not all that hard to get into heaven. Yes there have been things added to the different denominations that why I choose no denomination I get my word from the bible and know were else.

But are you not even the slightest bit curious where the stories in your bible came from? What the original text was that was miss edited, badly translated, deliberately changed, cribbed from older legends etc. actually was?

Why would the NIV have the correct wording given that it has been changed multiple times since the stories were first written down?

If you are happy to take a moral code by skimming the top of the stories and if it makes you live a good life then that is cool by me but from the second that I discovered that there were different versions of the stories in the Bible (as quite a young kid) I was fascinated to try and find out more about where all the stories came from.[/quote]

I was taught out of the New King James version, Picked up the NIV that my dad had and went from there. If it was good enough for him it was good enough for me.

I have looked and learned a lot about where the stories came from and I believe that the NIV explains it to me the best.

John_S1 · February 9, 2009, 7:02am

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?

And lets not forget Islam, lots of tolerance for other beliefs there.

We have no idea whether or not you are going to hell.

Hell is for people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and many many others who committed crimes against humanity and it is gives comfort to victims who believe that although these people did not suffer any consequences on earth during their lifetimes, they are suffering eternally for their crimes.

That’s the reason for the belief in hell. Whether it is a real place or a concept, it exists because of all the injustice in the world.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion, but this is one of the major problems I have with organized Christianity.

According to what many teach (and John S. mentioned this earlier), we all fall short of the glory of god, in other words, we all sin and are deserving of hellfire. The only way that we can escape this is by professing Jesus is the one and only son of God and asking for his forgiveness (repentance).

Also, once you repent your sins are automatically/instantaneously forgiven (after all Jesus died for all the sins of mankind through all of eternity).

So, according to this line of thinking, if Hitler (or really any mass murdering, child molesting rapist) repented with his last dying breath his sins, he would be automatically forgiven and he would get to go to heaven. He would not suffer for his crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, someone else could live a relatively moral life. They could make it a point to avoid lying, never kill or sexually assault anyone, never steal, be faithful to their spouse, help those in need, etc… but never profess Jesus as the son of God. And according to the above line of thinking, this person (who was an overall good person) would burn in hell for all eternity.

Does that really make sense?

I think Jesus was a great man and one of the most influential people to ever live (supposing he did). But people (church leaders, Constantine, etc…) have long since realized his influence and added terms of allegiance which people must adhere to in order to control them.

If hitler was to truly proclaim Jesus was the sun of God then yes he would go to heaven. Jesus died for all of our sins great and small. His forgiveness is that great. If you look at the bible it is not all that hard to get into heaven. Yes there have been things added to the different denominations that why I choose no denomination I get my word from the bible and know were else.

So, the evil man gets to go to heaven, and the good man has to go to hell? What’s the incentive to live a moral life then?

Also, if Jesus died for all of mankind’s sins great and small, then all of mankinds sins have already been forgiven and we’re all going to heaven anyhow.

It’s the whole “we’re the only ones who are right, everyone else is damned and must be converted” mindset that caused the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, slaughtering of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the conflict in current day Isreal, Muslim suicide bombers, etc…

Basically, most of the atrocities that have been done in the name of God use this same general concept as their justification (regardless of denomination or sect). [/quote]

Jesus died for all the sins yes, but unless you accept that he did and to do that is to believe he is the son of God lived a perfect life died and rose again on the third day and then ascended to heaven you have not accepted that he has died for your sins. The good man is evil in the eyes of the God until he confesses his sins.

Listen I am not on here to convert you or anything like that its your choice what you decide to do is your thing.

Makavali · February 9, 2009, 7:39am

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
But how often does that happen?[/quote]

Every second Tuesday?

orion · February 9, 2009, 6:45pm

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

You’re looking at it the wrong way round. You have to think from the point of view of if you were making up a religion and wanted to compete against the existing religions (which is exactly the situation that confronted the authors of the early writings that the New Testament comes from,) then what is one of the most important things that you need to do to ensure the survival of your religion?

You need to make it a sin not to totally believe everything in the religion especially the myths surrounding the central figures.

If you had a religion that said be nice to each other, but don’t worry so much about who the head honcho is or why then pretty quickly Darwinian natural selection evolves other religions over the top of yours.

Well… it also sometimes helps when rulers of vast empires gaze at the sun too long, have sudden conversions to your religion, declare it to be the state religion, edit the holy books so that they align with the official dogma, outlaw all the sects that don’t adhere to this dogma, and declare all the other religions in the empire treasonous and unlawful.

But how often does that happen?[/quote]

If you allow for a lose definition of “religion”, practically each generation.

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 6:56pm

[quote]John S. wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?

And lets not forget Islam, lots of tolerance for other beliefs there.

We have no idea whether or not you are going to hell.

Hell is for people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and many many others who committed crimes against humanity and it is gives comfort to victims who believe that although these people did not suffer any consequences on earth during their lifetimes, they are suffering eternally for their crimes.

That’s the reason for the belief in hell. Whether it is a real place or a concept, it exists because of all the injustice in the world.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion, but this is one of the major problems I have with organized Christianity.

According to what many teach (and John S. mentioned this earlier), we all fall short of the glory of god, in other words, we all sin and are deserving of hellfire. The only way that we can escape this is by professing Jesus is the one and only son of God and asking for his forgiveness (repentance).

Also, once you repent your sins are automatically/instantaneously forgiven (after all Jesus died for all the sins of mankind through all of eternity).

So, according to this line of thinking, if Hitler (or really any mass murdering, child molesting rapist) repented with his last dying breath his sins, he would be automatically forgiven and he would get to go to heaven. He would not suffer for his crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, someone else could live a relatively moral life. They could make it a point to avoid lying, never kill or sexually assault anyone, never steal, be faithful to their spouse, help those in need, etc… but never profess Jesus as the son of God. And according to the above line of thinking, this person (who was an overall good person) would burn in hell for all eternity.

Does that really make sense?

I think Jesus was a great man and one of the most influential people to ever live (supposing he did). But people (church leaders, Constantine, etc…) have long since realized his influence and added terms of allegiance which people must adhere to in order to control them.

If hitler was to truly proclaim Jesus was the sun of God then yes he would go to heaven. Jesus died for all of our sins great and small. His forgiveness is that great. If you look at the bible it is not all that hard to get into heaven. Yes there have been things added to the different denominations that why I choose no denomination I get my word from the bible and know were else.

But are you not even the slightest bit curious where the stories in your bible came from? What the original text was that was miss edited, badly translated, deliberately changed, cribbed from older legends etc. actually was?

Why would the NIV have the correct wording given that it has been changed multiple times since the stories were first written down?

If you are happy to take a moral code by skimming the top of the stories and if it makes you live a good life then that is cool by me but from the second that I discovered that there were different versions of the stories in the Bible (as quite a young kid) I was fascinated to try and find out more about where all the stories came from.

I was taught out of the New King James version, Picked up the NIV that my dad had and went from there. If it was good enough for him it was good enough for me.

I have looked and learned a lot about where the stories came from and I believe that the NIV explains it to me the best.
[/quote]
I was referring more to things like the Egyptian Book of the Dead but thats cool.

Sentoguy · February 9, 2009, 7:10pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
If christianity is suggesting that the deeds committed in life have no bearing on where one goes in the afterlife, and the single determining factor is simply whether or not that individual utters a specific phrase…

It isn’t.[/quote]

I don’t believe it is either, but that’s the way that a lot of religious officials paint things (especially evangelicals).

Of course it’s a much better marketing strategy than say the Puritans used. Who the hell wants to live like that?

Sentoguy · February 10, 2009, 12:15am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

So, the evil man gets to go to heaven, and the good man has to go to hell?

Heaven for the climate, hell for the company. If Fred Phelps is going to heaven, and George Carlin to hell, I know where I want to end up.

What’s the incentive to live a moral life then?

Albert Schweitzer said it best: “Reverence for Life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, assisting, and enhancing life and that to destroy, harm, or to hinder life is evil.”

Basically, most of the atrocities that have been done in the name of God use this same general concept as their justification (regardless of denomination or sect).

Google “Lord’s Resistance Army.” Atrocious people can find justification for their atrocity anywhere. Or as Plato said, “Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.”

I agree with you.

I was not arguing that religion is what makes a person good or bad, nor am I in favor of living an immoral life.

My point was that, most religions/mythologies hold a concept of hell as an afterlife meant to punish those who were wicked in life, and heaven as a place where the good are rewarded.

If christianity is suggesting that the deeds committed in life have no bearing on where one goes in the afterlife, and the single determining factor is simply whether or not that individual utters a specific phrase, then why so much emphasis on right and wrong?

This suggests that the only thing punishable by hellfire is not uttering a phrase of words and that all other offenses (pretty much breaking every single one of the ten commandments, multiple times possibly) are forgiveable. Those are some messed up priorities IMO.

You’re looking at it the wrong way round. You have to think from the point of view of if you were making up a religion and wanted to compete against the existing religions (which is exactly the situation that confronted the authors of the early writings that the New Testament comes from,) then what is one of the most important things that you need to do to ensure the survival of your religion?

You need to make it a sin not to totally believe everything in the religion especially the myths surrounding the central figures.

If you had a religion that said be nice to each other, but don’t worry so much about who the head honcho is or why then pretty quickly Darwinian natural selection evolves other religions over the top of yours.[/quote]

Actually that’s exactly what I was suggesting by saying that people had realized the influential power of the Messiah story and attached terms of allegance to it to control people.

Perhaps this wasn’t in the original books of the New Testament, but I’d be really surprised if it didn’t cross Constantine’s mind when he decided to make Christianity the official religion of Rome. And I’d bet that he added that term of allegiance if the earlier authors hadn’t.

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 7:51pm

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

You’re looking at it the wrong way round. You have to think from the point of view of if you were making up a religion and wanted to compete against the existing religions (which is exactly the situation that confronted the authors of the early writings that the New Testament comes from,) then what is one of the most important things that you need to do to ensure the survival of your religion?

You need to make it a sin not to totally believe everything in the religion especially the myths surrounding the central figures.

If you had a religion that said be nice to each other, but don’t worry so much about who the head honcho is or why then pretty quickly Darwinian natural selection evolves other religions over the top of yours.

Well… it also sometimes helps when rulers of vast empires gaze at the sun too long, have sudden conversions to your religion, declare it to be the state religion, edit the holy books so that they align with the official dogma, outlaw all the sects that don’t adhere to this dogma, and declare all the other religions in the empire treasonous and unlawful.

But how often does that happen?[/quote]

Actually given the schisms within the church at the moment, they could do with another Constantine to pare things down otherwise a few more generations will see Christianity fully breaking up into separate religions.

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 7:54pm

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Actually that’s exactly what I was suggesting by saying that people had realized the influential power of the Messiah story and attached terms of allegance to it to control people.

Perhaps this wasn’t in the original books of the New Testament, but I’d be really surprised if it didn’t cross Constantine’s mind when he decided to make Christianity the official religion of Rome. And I’d bet that he added that term of allegiance if the earlier authors hadn’t.[/quote]

Oh it was in the OT all right.

Most of the OT is a totally fabricated back story to try and give Judaism some sort of identity. The rest of it is plagerised straight from other popular religions of the time.

Sentoguy · February 9, 2009, 7:57pm

[quote]John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?

And lets not forget Islam, lots of tolerance for other beliefs there.

We have no idea whether or not you are going to hell.

Hell is for people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and many many others who committed crimes against humanity and it is gives comfort to victims who believe that although these people did not suffer any consequences on earth during their lifetimes, they are suffering eternally for their crimes.

That’s the reason for the belief in hell. Whether it is a real place or a concept, it exists because of all the injustice in the world.

I hesitate to get involved with this discussion, but this is one of the major problems I have with organized Christianity.

According to what many teach (and John S. mentioned this earlier), we all fall short of the glory of god, in other words, we all sin and are deserving of hellfire. The only way that we can escape this is by professing Jesus is the one and only son of God and asking for his forgiveness (repentance).

Also, once you repent your sins are automatically/instantaneously forgiven (after all Jesus died for all the sins of mankind through all of eternity).

So, according to this line of thinking, if Hitler (or really any mass murdering, child molesting rapist) repented with his last dying breath his sins, he would be automatically forgiven and he would get to go to heaven. He would not suffer for his crimes against humanity.

On the other hand, someone else could live a relatively moral life. They could make it a point to avoid lying, never kill or sexually assault anyone, never steal, be faithful to their spouse, help those in need, etc… but never profess Jesus as the son of God. And according to the above line of thinking, this person (who was an overall good person) would burn in hell for all eternity.

Does that really make sense?

I think Jesus was a great man and one of the most influential people to ever live (supposing he did). But people (church leaders, Constantine, etc…) have long since realized his influence and added terms of allegiance which people must adhere to in order to control them.

If hitler was to truly proclaim Jesus was the sun of God then yes he would go to heaven. Jesus died for all of our sins great and small. His forgiveness is that great. If you look at the bible it is not all that hard to get into heaven. Yes there have been things added to the different denominations that why I choose no denomination I get my word from the bible and know were else.

So, the evil man gets to go to heaven, and the good man has to go to hell? What’s the incentive to live a moral life then?

Also, if Jesus died for all of mankind’s sins great and small, then all of mankinds sins have already been forgiven and we’re all going to heaven anyhow.

It’s the whole “we’re the only ones who are right, everyone else is damned and must be converted” mindset that caused the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, slaughtering of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the conflict in current day Isreal, Muslim suicide bombers, etc…

Basically, most of the atrocities that have been done in the name of God use this same general concept as their justification (regardless of denomination or sect).

Jesus died for all the sins yes, but unless you accept that he did and to do that is to believe he is the son of God lived a perfect life died and rose again on the third day and then ascended to heaven you have not accepted that he has died for your sins. The good man is evil in the eyes of the God until he confesses his sins.

Listen I am not on here to convert you or anything like that its your choice what you decide to do is your thing.[/quote]

Oh, I’ve already proclaimed that Jesus was the one and only son of God, I’ve been baptized (as an adult no less, so I absolutely had a say in the matter), went to church every Sunday (and on most Holidays) for years, paid Tithes, gave offerings to the poor, read the bible, prayed, etc… I’ve been there and done that when it comes to the Christian thing.

What I don’t believe in is this idea that we all must accept Jesus or burn in hell. I don’t believe that we are damned from birth (original sin), nor do I believe that a good man will go to hell simply because he didn’t utter a specific phrase or undergo a man made ritual. As I stated before, I believe that Jesus died for all of mankinds sins, and that we really don’t have to do anything else to make this come true. However, as I believe it was Varqanir mentioned before, living a good moral life has rewards of it’s own.

Like Cockney suggested you have to take into consideration the people who had power over Christianity in the past (the Roman empire, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusaders, etc…) and what influence they might have had on it’s teachings.

I mean, if you were going to draw up a blue print for how to gain a large following and ensure people’s doing what you wanted them to, what better way than to tell everyone that no matter how hard they might try to live a good life, they’re ultimately doomed to suffer for eternity. But, the good news is that you have found the only way to escape this fate. All they have to do is utter a phrase of words (and this is only a recent day development, in the past there were many, many more rules that people had to follow). No matter what sex, age, ethnicity, social class, or past lifestyle they will be saved.

So, in short, everyone is damned (creates a sense of helplessness and basically sets the bar where no one can possibly reach it, so that people will willingly accept your terms) and then make it so that anyone can join your religion (basically doesn’t exclude anyone, so your following can grow exponentially).

Sloth · February 9, 2009, 8:07pm

Do evangelicals really teach that you just have to say some words? I had the impression that for them repentance and conversion had to be true in the mind, heart, and soul (however you want to put it), also.

MaximusB · February 9, 2009, 8:17pm

There are no atheists in fox holes…

Sentoguy · February 9, 2009, 8:40pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Do evangelicals really teach that you just have to say some words? I had the impression that for them repentance and conversion had to be true in the mind, heart, and soul (however you want to put it), also. [/quote]

Well, yeah you’re supposed to believe what you are saying of course. Still, it’s pretty much the act of actually voicing that repentance/conversion that gets you the ticket in though (at least from my understanding).

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 8:58pm

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
There are no atheists in fox holes…[/quote]

How do you know what religion foxes follow?

(by the way, there are plenty of atheists in fox holes.)

Cockney_Blue · February 9, 2009, 9:03pm

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Yeah ok, so the fact that you (I assume based on the widely accepted tennets of your faith,) think that I will go to hell and be tortured for eternity is not at all douche baggy then?