Chomsky At It Again

[quote]The Mage wrote:
If Noam Chomsky is an intellectual, Then Michael Moore is the leading expert on diet and exercise.
[/quote]

Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any living scholar, and the eighth most cited source overall.

Oh well, I guess conservatives aren’t big fans of intellectuals.

[quote]fahd wrote:
Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any living scholar, and the eighth most cited source overall.

Oh well, I guess conservatives aren’t big fans of intellectuals.[/quote]

I believe Thomas Kuhn once held that position, as well; that doesn’t make me any more inclined to take Kuhn’s positions for granted than it does Chomsky’s. I’ve never denied his ability as a linguist. I have only asserted that he ought to stick to his specialty. Any physicist could write stunning diatribes that anyone without a degree in Quantum Physics would be utterly unable to fathom. That, however, would not make him qualified as a political theorist, nor relevant in that subject matter.

We have enough kooks in political theory as it is; you linguists keep Chomsky to yourselves. We’re already well-stocked with crazy.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Any physicist could write stunning diatribes that anyone without a degree in Quantum Physics would be utterly unable to fathom. That, however, would not make him qualified as a political theorist, nor relevant in that subject matter.

[/quote]

I agree with you. The reason for my post was that I found the mage’s post very ignorant and uneducated.

[quote]fahd wrote:

Oh well, I guess conservatives aren’t big fans of intellectuals.[/quote]

‘Intellectuals’ are largely a self-appointed group. And to add to your quoute, I don’t think ‘intellectuals’ are big fans of conservatives. And most conservatives are ecstatic about that.

But it’s important to remember the real world distinction between ‘intellectuals’ and people who are intelligent. Most assuredly, they are worlds apart.

Chomsky is a distinguished linguist, but beyond that he is pure hack. Outside the incestuous circle of academia, Chomsky doesn’t have much currency.

arguably means “not subject to argument, irrefutable”.

no current professional in linguistics thinks chomsky has made a contribution in 20 years. in fact, the old joke is that the only way to get him to shut up is to ask him a linguistics question.

sadly, he is famous overseas. but anyone who thinks he is an intellectual for his linguistics or political insights - that’s just sad. plenty of brilliant people on the left. chomsky is none of them.

The article from the Guardian was a bunch of twisted lies about Chomsky, here’s a rebuttal:

Also, for a wealth of information on what he says, as opposed to lies about him, you can check his website:
www.chomsky.info

A point was made that he’s not an expert in politics. That fits in with the cult of the expert, where you gotta have a piece of paper to prove you know anything. Considering most experts are paid by somebody, that’s pretty thin. It’s better to listen to the arguments, and form your own opinion. In Chomsky’s case, the wealth of sources he quotes is so impressive, it would be difficult to find a comparable expert.

I’ve read a fair bit by him, and on him, so I can make comparisons. His critics usually take quotes out of context, or just plain manufacture them. A good way to “Manufacture Consent”, his best book in my opinion.

Also, he’s not a communist, and never was. Nor is he particularly ideological, though through his opposition to ideologies he leaves himself open to be labelled as such.
Dan

Typical hatchet job against Chomsky. Would be impressive if the starter of this thread changed his first post to reflect that Chmosky did not in fact say what he was accused of. Clowns.

The guy’s a clown. Few would dispute his brilliance as a linguist, but as an apologist for communism and genocide he has few peers. He was a guest of those benevolent socialists in Hanoi at the same time Jane Fonda was, those same kindly nationalists who shot over 60,000 people (more than we lost in the whole war) within a couple of months of taking power in 1975.

I don’t understand how any smart, free-thinking person can take someone like Chomsky seriously. I read one of his books, What Uncle Same Really Wants, years ago, and even the basic premise of a slim (100 pages?) polemic like that is garbage: the majority of U.S. armed interventions in the Caribbean have been for political reasons, promotion of democracy, national security, not some payoff to United Fruit. Noam Chomsky is maybe marginally more credible than Michael Moore. Maybe.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
The guy’s a clown. Few would dispute his brilliance as a linguist, but as an apologist for communism and genocide he has few peers. He was a guest of those benevolent socialists in Hanoi at the same time Jane Fonda was, those same kindly nationalists who shot over 60,000 people (more than we lost in the whole war) within a couple of months of taking power in 1975.

I would be very interested if you could provide just one original quote where he’s apologizing for communists. This claim has been made often about him, but it is unsubstantiated.

I don’t understand how any smart, free-thinking person can take someone like Chomsky seriously. I read one of his books, What Uncle Same Really Wants, years ago, and even the basic premise of a slim (100 pages?) polemic like that is garbage:

If you read one thing by Chomsky, I would recommend the first chapter in “Manufacturing Consent”, which is quite an eye opener as to how the media works. This book is read by every aspiring journalist, and is required reading in political science courses in many countries. It sure sounds like he’s rather knowledgeable.
On a more personal note, I’ve been through the stage you might be experiencing. When I first read Chomsky, it was such a shock, it went so against everything I “knew”, that it was hard to believe. But, I like to read both sides, and what determined the issue for me is the plethora of original, relevant and serious sources he cites, sources which tend to be missing from right wing propaganda.

the majority of U.S. armed interventions in the Caribbean have been for political reasons, promotion of democracy, national security, not some payoff to United Fruit. Noam Chomsky is maybe marginally more credible than Michael Moore. Maybe.[/quote]

Whenever I hear the above comment, that the US is fighting for democracy and national security, I find it difficult to stay civil, but I’ll do my best; after all, I used to believe that stuff too. So, here’s the American political system in a nutshell (the argument applies to other so called “democracies” to varying degrees):
To get elected, a politician needs money to campaign. In the US, 70%-80% of campaign contributions come from business. If you want to know who has power in a place, whether it’s a government or a business, you don’t look at what they say (propaganda) or their circuses (elections); you look at who owns the place. In the US, that’s business. In turn, politicians serve their paymasters, or they won’t be there for long, and they know it. As for the public, who does have nominal power through elections, they can be “managed” through advertising (more big business) and news (yes, also big business). So it is not at all far fetched that foreign policy serves business interests.
I am not arguing here that Americans are stupid; they’re as smart as anybody else. But, people make decisions on the basis of the information they’re presented with, and in the US, it ain’t much. As a stark example, a poll sometime ago showed about half of Americans believe the US invaded Iraq because of 9/11, though the government never said so, they simply alluded to it, and it’s always been known that there is no connection. This is an example of the effectiveness of propaganda; there are many more.
And now, to the argument that they fight for democracy and national security. Let me dismiss national security first as being simply laughable; we worry about Panama, Haiti, Grenada, Cuba ?! Seriously, this is why the rest of the world tends to laugh at Americans. I’m not trying to be offensive, just consider, the world’s only superpower “defending” itself against some third world Caribbean islands… Come on! “Defending American interests” is a phrase that at least has the merit of being closer to the truth.
As for supporting democracy, it’s a lovely bit of propaganda, essential to be believed by the young men who do the killing and the dying, as well as by the lesser creatures we just have to police for their own good, but it’s just not borne out by the facts. Strictly speaking, the US doesn’t support democracies any more than they support dictatorships; what they support is client regimes. If they happen to be democracies, that’ fine, but dictatorships are actually prefered, since they’re more dependent on foreign support as opposed to popular support, and popular support is likely to demand certain things like minimum wage, better working conditions, corporate taxes etc., all of which are inimical to foreign business interests. A study was done a few years ago, I wish I could quote the source, that tried to correlate US support for regimes, and those regimes abuse of human rights, from suppressing negative reporting to torture and genocide. The study found the correlation to be positive and strong, meaning the worse the suppression of their own population, the stronger US support for these governments (which didn’t have to be dictatorships, btw). Examples are Indonesia in East Timor, Turkey murdering the Kurds, Israel occupying the Palestinians, and various military juntas in Central and South America. This is not coincidental, the whole point is to keep the population down, so that the local government can all the more depend on foreign support, and leave their country open to the benefits of “free trade”, i.e. colonial economic domination. This is all presented as supporting “stability”; Condoleeza Rice practically admitted this in a speech she gave in Egypt earlier this year.

[quote]harris447 wrote:

Noam Chomsky is probably the most respected and cited linguist in the world. Whether or not you agree with his political beliefs, to think of him as dumb only reflects badly upon yourself.[/quote]

Where exactly did I say he was dumb? It is easy to argue against me when you make up what I say.

[quote]fahd wrote:

Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in The 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine Prospect. According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any living scholar, and the eighth most cited source overall.

Oh well, I guess conservatives aren’t big fans of intellectuals.[/quote]

Oh boy, first I must respect the popularity contest, and then you attack me, and all conservatives. (Actually I am probably somewhere between conservative and libertarian.)

I don’t care if he is voted prom queen or not, and just because he has been cited quite a bit does not mean he is correct. It just means a lot of people want him to be.

Now when was that vote? I don’t remember being asked to vote on this myself. Was this a popular vote, or was it and Electoral College type of election? And if so was he selected, not elected?

[quote]fahd wrote:

I agree with you. The reason for my post was that I found the mage’s post very ignorant and uneducated.[/quote]

What do you mean? I dun gradeated the 6th grade.

You must be suffering from a superiority complex.

I admit my ignorance.

What makes a linguist an expert on international politics?

I thought a linguist was someone who spoke a bunch of languages.

[quote]doogie wrote:
I admit my ignorance.

What makes a linguist an expert on international politics?

I thought a linguist was someone who spoke a bunch of languages.[/quote]

Linguistics is the study of language. (And that is barely the tip of the iceberg of that definition.) Linguists are the boring people who study language.

Language is a very complex thing, and linguistics is very connected to politics as most politicians use words to twist everything.

Too often people who gain some education start to think they are smarter then the masses. This is a similar thing that happens when some people get promoted and turn into assholes, or politicians get power and it goes to their heads, or somebody takes a martial arts class and suddenly thinks he can kick anybody’s ass.

The results are the educated people suddenly think they have the authority to speak on any issue as an expert, and sometimes ends up looking like a fool, or he fools other people into thinking he is some intellectual guru.

The promoted prick either falls flat on his face, discovering he has lost control of his employees, or he actually gets promoted further up the chain and becomes an even bigger prick.

The politician who lets the power go to his head, (all of them I think,) loses the next election, or gets caught in some scandal, (or is made to look like there is a scandal from another power crazed politician,) or he actually becomes a very powerful, and dangerous man.

And the supposed black belts who can get his ass kicked by 12 year old girls. Or they end up talking big, showing off, and fooling people into believing they actually can kick ass.

[quote]The Mage wrote:

I don’t care if he is voted prom queen or not, and just because he has been cited quite a bit does not mean he is correct. It just means a lot of people want him to be.
[/quote]

In your first post you said he’s as much of an intellectual as Michael Moore is an exercise/nutrition guru. You can deny and refute all his political ideas, but you can’t deny his status and intellectual capacity.

I’m not surprised.

[quote]
Was this a popular vote, or was it and Electoral College type of election? And if so was he selected, not elected?[/quote]

Intellectuals Poll is a list of the 100 most important living public intellectuals in the world, which has been compiled by the Prospect Magazine (UK), on the basis of a reader’s ballot consisted of more than 20,000 votes.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7110

Note, he is getting praise not so much for any scientific advancement, but for “exposing the high crimes and misdemeanours of the most powerful country in the world and its complicity with venal and brutal rulers across four continents over half a century or more.”

More:

The first part of the article celebrates Chomsky as a “truth-teller” to power.

I thought this was a defense of him being an intellectual?

The criticism of him, in the second part, explains that his polemics are not the basis of his ‘intellectualism’:

“In his book Public Intellectuals: A Study of Decline, Richard Posner noted that “a successful academic may be able to use his success to reach the general public on matters about which he is an idiot.” Judging by caustic remarks elsewhere in the book, he was thinking of Noam Chomsky. He was not wrong.”

Nice.

Here is the list, just for fun:

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/intellectuals/results

Krugman at 6? Wow.

I had the dubious pleasure of listening to Chomsky give a lecture in ?93 or so. It was like having to sit through two hours of a rambling, flesh and blood Pelonious. At one point he stated how people were born with this special language center in the brain, I believe he called it the LED or AED. My physiological psychology professor asked, where was located it on the brain. Chomsky couldn?t tell him & grew a little irate at the question. Nothing like seeing a great intellectual have a temper tantrum at being questioned on his theories.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
doogie wrote:
I admit my ignorance.

What makes a linguist an expert on international politics?

I thought a linguist was someone who spoke a bunch of languages.

Linguistics is the study of language. (And that is barely the tip of the iceberg of that definition.) Linguists are the boring people who study language.

Language is a very complex thing, and linguistics is very connected to politics as most politicians use words to twist everything.

Too often people who gain some education start to think they are smarter then the masses. This is a similar thing that happens when some people get promoted and turn into assholes, or politicians get power and it goes to their heads, or somebody takes a martial arts class and suddenly thinks he can kick anybody’s ass.

The results are the educated people suddenly think they have the authority to speak on any issue as an expert, and sometimes ends up looking like a fool, or he fools other people into thinking he is some intellectual guru.

The promoted prick either falls flat on his face, discovering he has lost control of his employees, or he actually gets promoted further up the chain and becomes an even bigger prick.

The politician who lets the power go to his head, (all of them I think,) loses the next election, or gets caught in some scandal, (or is made to look like there is a scandal from another power crazed politician,) or he actually becomes a very powerful, and dangerous man.

And the supposed black belts who can get his ass kicked by 12 year old girls. Or they end up talking big, showing off, and fooling people into believing they actually can kick ass. [/quote]

Best post on this thread!

[quote]fahd wrote:
In your first post you said he’s as much of an intellectual as Michael Moore is an exercise/nutrition guru. You can deny and refute all his political ideas, but you can’t deny his status and intellectual capacity. [/quote]

When the hell did I refute his status? I only refuted the idea that he is an intellectual, and I don’t think I should believe he is just because some people tell me to. To call him an intellectual you would have to call Rush Limbaugh an intellectual. Why? Because he does the exact same thing politically, just on the other side. For some reason I don’t think you are about to do that.

[quote]
The Mage wrote:
I don’t remember being asked to vote on this myself.

fahd wrote:
I’m not surprised. [/quote]

Ah, here comes the snobbery.

Well I am sure glad magazine readers votes are prized so highly. Again just a popularity contest. Didn’t the list of best movies come out recently? Didn’t vote for that one either. What was the vote in Teen Beat? Eminem?

Anyway I am not too impressed by the idea of voting on who the superior human is.

Anyway notice that it say’s, “The world’s top public intellectual?” with the nice big question mark at the end?

[quote]joemurphy wrote:
arguably means “not subject to argument, irrefutable”.

no current professional in linguistics thinks chomsky has made a contribution in 20 years. in fact, the old joke is that the only way to get him to shut up is to ask him a linguistics question.

sadly, he is famous overseas. but anyone who thinks he is an intellectual for his linguistics or political insights - that’s just sad. plenty of brilliant people on the left. chomsky is none of them.[/quote]

argu?a?bly adv.

Open to argument: an arguable question, still unresolved.
That can be argued plausibly; defensible in argument: three arguable points of law.

So…what in the name of fuck are you talking about? Did you get “arguably” mixed up with “inflammable”?