Chinese Epic Fail

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Who needs an army when you hold America and many European countries’ economies by the balls?[/quote]

Yes, because if we stop buying their shit they’ll continue to thrive. Not buying their crap is what’s fueling their insane construction expansion, improved wages, increase in living standards, and their acquisition of resources. Soon they won’t even need us to buy their crap let alone provide them with all the food their huge population needs. You’re totally right bro America depends on them and not the other way around.

The west just gets whatever country that is cheapest and most willing to do work for us to be our slaves. The US has moved from one section of the world to the next. Africa, the Carribean, China, Tawain, India, and it is currently moving to Thailand and Vietnam.

The Epic Chinese Failure here is that they have a population they can’t feed, an economy dependent on foreign consumption, suburbs filled with skyscrapers that house no people, and a working class that is demanding higher wages/standards of living. The Chinese will soon be removing the whole reason the west did business with them in the first place.[/quote]

  1. Chinese expansion will continue after Western Collapse. Your theory is totally flawed. Did the USA stop production after Europe destroyed itself in WW1 or WW2? The opposite was true. China’s power started by an influx of foreign revenues to get the capital (tools and expertise) they need to build themselves up. But ironically, the state controlled economy is more effective and recession proof than the US one because they have direct command and control over their corporations and resources. Meaning, psychological bullshit like stock market crashes won’t pop the market as it would in S.Korea or USA because they can simply mandate many thigns that we can’t. China’s goal for perhaps the last 10 years, has been developing an interrnal market in order to shield themselves from the outside world. This has been evident in everything they do and part of the reason, they’ve kept the yuan devalued (so their citizens, HAVE to buy domestically made products).
  2. If you actually think outsourced production centers are going to move to Africa or the Carribean, you’ve gone made. It’s not about cheapest workforce, it’s about cheapest manageable and reasonably intelligent work force. Put the big ‘racist’ stamp on me if you read into that to much, but Haiti’s trade relationship with the USA is nearly 300 years old…there is a reason why we didn’t outsource there like we did to China. Use your head. If we’d go anywhere, it’d prolly be Central Asia, but then their land-loccked environment would make it much more difficult and expensive.[/quote]

SIGH

I’ll give you some advice. Start lubing up your ear cause you are about to get skull fucked sooooooooooo bad. Useless internet beatdown with some actual enlightenment on the subject will commence in about 10-15 minutes…as soon as I finish my bean soup and make some green tea.

***** Tick Tock *****

I have absolutely no problem with you having a different point of view from me. In fact I love a good debate. The problem is/was there was nothing good about the bucket of vomit you slung in here.

Alrighty then where to begin? I guess I’ll start out by giving you a general outline of how this is going to work

Step 1: Destroy your nonexistent credibility.
Step 2: Show you how things actually are.
Step 3: PROFIT!!!

Step 1
In all due seriousness it is very hard for you to be taken seriously when you don’t know what you are talking about and you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote. How does this work? Well when you were in school was there ever a kid in your class that obviously didn’t read the book that he was giving a book report on? Everyone but that kid knows that he/she is full of shit but that doesn’t stop them. It’s very hard to give a book report/review if you didn’t read the material. In this case I’m referring to my post as the book you didn’t read.

Your entire 2nd bullet point, paragraph or whatever you want to call it is…well it’s fucked. You said “If you actually think outsourced production centers are going to move to Africa or the Caribbean, you’ve gone made”. I said “The US has moved from one section of the world to the next. Africa, the Caribbean, China, Taiwan, India, and it is currently moving to Thailand and Vietnam.” Now I will admit I didn’t word that the best, but I said it is currently moving to Thailand and Vietnam. I never said it was moving to Africa or the Caribbean. I implied that it had already been there. But, that’s ok maybe reading comprehension isn’t your thing.

The sad thing is you believe it is spreading in Asia, albeit just the wrong part. Whereas, I too believe it is spreading to other parts of Asia. So your whole point was that I was dumb because I didn’t know about our trading history with Africa, the Caribbeans, and the future being Asia outside of China. When clearly I had almost the exact same point of view as you on it. At this point you need to ask yourself…are you wanting to listen and debate? Or are you just waiting for your turn to talk?

Step 2
I could and probably should just stop there but this part is actually important. This is the part where I still ridicule you but I actually provide information, and sound reasoning.

We need to completely dismantle your first post and any sense of logic you had behind it. You seriously compared modern China and the current Global Economic Crisis with WW1&2? “Chinese expansion will continue after Western Collapse. Your theory is totally flawed. Did the USA stop production after Europe destroyed itself in WW1 or WW2? The opposite was true.”

You are comparing the WW2 US to China. I really don’t know where to being. You are comparing the largest wartime manufacturing effort and military campaign in history to modern China? First off the US and China are two completely different countries with two completely different cultures with two completely different sets of resources and two completely different sets of infrastructure. And my theory is totally flawed? This isn’t comparing apples to apples…its not even comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing the smell of a flower to the view of a single cell organism under a microscope. But, wait that doesn’t make any sense those things aren’t even related. THAT’S EXACTLY MY POINT!

Your second part of the paragraph goes on to proclaim the benefits of the Chinese economic policy and how it benefits them. They have complete control thanks to the state and they don’t have the bad psychological factors affecting things like their stock market. With that said I clearly need to come in and explain some things to you. Asians in general love love love LOVE LOVE LOVE to gamble. They have a very long history of gambling, price fixing, and frauds. There stock market has seen many crashes and their banks have had many runs due to people gambling on the markets and wild speculation. That gambling and superstition is just part of their culture. For better or worse that’s who they are. It’s actually very interesting and there are plenty of books that study it. History/Discovery/Nat Geo have specials on the Chinese culture from time to time that illustrate this very well. Look into the history of Hong Kong…I know I know they were “owned” by the British for a while.

Another hole in your argument about the Chinese Govt/Economy is that they aren’t as state controlled as you think they are. Every year that goes by they become more liberal and the people gain more liberties. How else do you think their quality of life would be improving? They are getting paid more, given more choice to choose their profession, and being coming large consumers. Their is nothing more western and less socialist than buying a bunch of shit you don’t need. Their consumption of bullshit instant fast food is on the rise and they are piling up garbage in their cities because they are consuming stuff so quickly that they don’t have the infrastructure to keep up with sanitation.

It’s getting late so I’ll try and wrap this up. China has huge ghosts towns due to their insane real estate bubble. They are leasing large parts of Australia, New Zealand, Africa, Brazil, and are expanding into other South American countries. The sole reason they are leasing this land is to grow food and send it back home to feed their people. China has very little arable land. This combined with the fact that they have one of if not the largest population on Earth is a major problem. They also don’t have enough clean drinkable water. These aren’t my ideas, random musings, wishes, speculations, or made up points to try and make me look good. These are cold hard tangible facts. If you really don’t believe me you have google and you can look it up.

So putting this all together. You either didn’t read my post, didn’t understand my post, or both. You are drawing conclusions by comparing two completely different countries at different points in time under different circumstances to get the same result. You don’t show any indication of knowledge about the Chinese culture or their economy. You don’t know about or completely ignore some gigantic fucking problems China has to overcome. But, China is going to come out on top.

The one and only thing China has going for it right now is tons and tons and tons of our cheap money. They are slowly starting to realize that the US will never pay them back or if we do it will be with trillions of devalued dollars. So what they are doing is buying up astronomical sums of gold and silver from around the world with our worthless paper. It’s actually a brilliant move on their part. They are turning an almost useless resource that they have a large quantity of into an asset that has held it’s value for thousands of years. If China is to ever come out ahead of this mess it will because they will acquire a vast portion of the World’s wealth in precious metals. But, how long can they hold onto them when they are having to ship water, food, and other basic necessities to them from thousands of miles away?

Step 3
Be like China and use our worthless money to buy real assets. And don’t be “that kid” in class ever again. PROFIT BITCHES!!!

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Who needs an army when you hold America and many European countries’ economies by the balls?[/quote]

Yes, because if we stop buying their shit they’ll continue to thrive. Not buying their crap is what’s fueling their insane construction expansion, improved wages, increase in living standards, and their acquisition of resources. Soon they won’t even need us to buy their crap let alone provide them with all the food their huge population needs. You’re totally right bro America depends on them and not the other way around.

The west just gets whatever country that is cheapest and most willing to do work for us to be our slaves. The US has moved from one section of the world to the next. Africa, the Carribean, China, Tawain, India, and it is currently moving to Thailand and Vietnam.

The Epic Chinese Failure here is that they have a population they can’t feed, an economy dependent on foreign consumption, suburbs filled with skyscrapers that house no people, and a working class that is demanding higher wages/standards of living. The Chinese will soon be removing the whole reason the west did business with them in the first place.[/quote]

  1. Chinese expansion will continue after Western Collapse. Your theory is totally flawed. Did the USA stop production after Europe destroyed itself in WW1 or WW2? The opposite was true. China’s power started by an influx of foreign revenues to get the capital (tools and expertise) they need to build themselves up. But ironically, the state controlled economy is more effective and recession proof than the US one because they have direct command and control over their corporations and resources. Meaning, psychological bullshit like stock market crashes won’t pop the market as it would in S.Korea or USA because they can simply mandate many thigns that we can’t. China’s goal for perhaps the last 10 years, has been developing an interrnal market in order to shield themselves from the outside world. This has been evident in everything they do and part of the reason, they’ve kept the yuan devalued (so their citizens, HAVE to buy domestically made products).
  2. If you actually think outsourced production centers are going to move to Africa or the Carribean, you’ve gone made. It’s not about cheapest workforce, it’s about cheapest manageable and reasonably intelligent work force. Put the big ‘racist’ stamp on me if you read into that to much, but Haiti’s trade relationship with the USA is nearly 300 years old…there is a reason why we didn’t outsource there like we did to China. Use your head. If we’d go anywhere, it’d prolly be Central Asia, but then their land-loccked environment would make it much more difficult and expensive.[/quote]

India? Southeast Asia (Indonesia, Vietnam, etc)?[/quote]
Were already there, I was talking about going some place new. Also, wages are climbing in those countries as well.

Ghorig, as a fellow Missourian I see no point in enmity betweeen us. However, it appears to me you are as much the loud mouth who wants to hear himself talk and project his ego over the internet as anyone else here.

Apparently we agree about the production center thing, so there is no point to argue. My intention is not to argue with you, it’s simply through dialectic discourse we can unveil the truth. As a man so impassioned, I know that you do indeed, desire the TRUTH. So in this, we are working together, not fighting.

However, without doing a complex research paper, I would say that and I believe many would agree with me…comparing China to the industrial revolution United States and its rapid ascent into industrial super power is a fair analysis. What other country do you have to compare it to? What other precedent?

The USA is NOT the manufacturing superpower anymore, it lifted that and planted it in China, this is the whole reason for the vaccuum in our economy.

From my viewpoint and anyone else who uses precedents instead of random guessing to see how things turn out.
Western collapse would not halt China’s production, as I said before, most especially because of the command and control they have over their economy. They can mobilize and control their populace with much greater ease and inefficiency than we can ours.

The Chinese are not stupid, if they didnt already make one 10 years ago and regularly update it, they are doing it now as far as contingency for Western Collapse goes. Thats the tragedy of Western civilization, our post-modern intellectual democratic institutions can’t sit down and follow-through on one gameplan for any period of time. Whereas China using that neo-Soviet model injected with Capitalism, follows through on long term plans that they cook up every 5, 10 and 20 years.

Look into Expansive vs Intensive efforts. Micro managed private sector does wonders in Intensive, and Macro managed corporate/government sector does wonders in expansive. China has the best of both. We had the best of intensive, but its seeming more every day, now we have the best of neither.

So despite Western Cold War propaganda, the Communist party can work (albeit perhaps transformed into State Corporatism). Obviously, even better than the 4-8 year manic depressive episodes of government policy and intiative we go trough, that leave a scorched Earth of broken international political bridges and failed expansive projects in their wake.

[quote]winkel wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
They probably own the rights to the movie.[/quote]

So, as (I hope) the U.S. bounces back and flourishes, is China just gonna ride that and always be more powerful than us? Once they pass us (if they haven’t already) will we ever become #1 again?[/quote]

China is going to fall apart regardless of what the US does. [/quote]

Explain please?[/quote]

There is a 100 million disparity between males and females in China. China will be fucked down the road.

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]winkel wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
They probably own the rights to the movie.[/quote]

So, as (I hope) the U.S. bounces back and flourishes, is China just gonna ride that and always be more powerful than us? Once they pass us (if they haven’t already) will we ever become #1 again?[/quote]

China is going to fall apart regardless of what the US does. [/quote]

Explain please?[/quote]

There is a 100 million disparity between males and females in China. China will be fucked down the road.[/quote]
I heard it was 50 million, anyways, this more eludes to them either 1) becoming saudis and trotting the globe in search of brides, or 2) going to war to shed off excess male population.

Major wars are generally kicked off by dudes who can’t get laid.

WW1, Iran/Iraq just to name two. Like I said any dialogue on a forum is simply sophomoric, none of us are writing a research paper, so we’re doing pure speculation… altho these can form the basis for greater research. However arguing with eachother just kicks off an pseudo-intellectual fap session, that I believe any reasonable man would be uninterested in.

[quote]winkel wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
They probably own the rights to the movie.[/quote]

So, as (I hope) the U.S. bounces back and flourishes, is China just gonna ride that and always be more powerful than us? Once they pass us (if they haven’t already) will we ever become #1 again?[/quote]

China is going to fall apart regardless of what the US does. [/quote]

Explain please?[/quote]

China doesn’t pay it bills to its own people and contractors.

China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?

Their whole economy is built on an economic imbalance that cannot last. When the bubble bursts there will be big problems.

China is all sorts of messed up. The government artificially inflates the value of their currency to help fuel the economic boom there. What happens when that comes crashing down? Or will the government simply not let it the economy crash?

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?
[/quote]

They have plenty of money. The price of goods will get cheaper. The law of supply and demand is universal.

Whether or not their factories get retooled to build different goods is an other matter.

We can also expect there will be some unemployment increases.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?
[/quote]

They have plenty of money. The price of goods will get cheaper. The law of supply and demand is universal.

Whether or not their factories get retooled to build different goods is an other matter.

We can also expect there will be some unemployment increases.[/quote]

They may have plenty of money but will they share it with the workers?

Right now their workers are practically slave laborers and in order to make the transition they will have to be more like western consumers. I don’t see it happening.

You of all people should know how ridiculous it is to expect a totalitarian government to manage this. Turmoil ahead for China!

[quote]grayman19 wrote:
China is all sorts of messed up. The government artificially inflates the value of their currency to help fuel the economic boom there. What happens when that comes crashing down? Or will the government simply not let it the economy crash?[/quote]
You know nothing. Have you have even been reading about the trade war? Chinese currency is and has been devalued to about half of its actual worth to snuff out Western competition abroad, and to stimulate internal growth.

The exact opposite is true.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?
[/quote]

They have plenty of money. The price of goods will get cheaper. The law of supply and demand is universal.

Whether or not their factories get retooled to build different goods is an other matter.

We can also expect there will be some unemployment increases.[/quote]

They may have plenty of money but will they share it with the workers?

Right now their workers are practically slave laborers and in order to make the transition they will have to be more like western consumers. I don’t see it happening.

You of all people should know how ridiculous it is to expect a totalitarian government to manage this. Turmoil ahead for China![/quote]

They don’t need to be consumers at all but if they reduce trade around the world who else will consume the goods but poor Chinese workers? Prices will come down regardless in terms of the Chinese currency. The government does not need to “share” anything for this to happen and indeed, if they don’t it will only happen that much more quickly.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?
[/quote]

They have plenty of money. The price of goods will get cheaper. The law of supply and demand is universal.

Whether or not their factories get retooled to build different goods is an other matter.

We can also expect there will be some unemployment increases.[/quote]

They may have plenty of money but will they share it with the workers?

Right now their workers are practically slave laborers and in order to make the transition they will have to be more like western consumers. I don’t see it happening.

You of all people should know how ridiculous it is to expect a totalitarian government to manage this. Turmoil ahead for China![/quote]

They don’t need to be consumers at all but if they reduce trade around the world who else will consume the goods but poor Chinese workers? Prices will come down regardless in terms of the Chinese currency. The government does not need to “share” anything for this to happen and indeed, if they don’t it will only happen that much more quickly.[/quote]

Either they export, their workers get paid more and consume or system collapse.

Prices of goods will not fall far enough for the workers to buy.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
China is uprooting farmers and driving them into new cities which are 1/2 empty.

They are hoping that when America goes broke they can start selling their garbage to their own people. That isn’t going to work because the people don’t have any money. What will they do then? Raise the pay for their workers? Have their workers strike?
[/quote]

They have plenty of money. The price of goods will get cheaper. The law of supply and demand is universal.

Whether or not their factories get retooled to build different goods is an other matter.

We can also expect there will be some unemployment increases.[/quote]

They may have plenty of money but will they share it with the workers?

Right now their workers are practically slave laborers and in order to make the transition they will have to be more like western consumers. I don’t see it happening.

You of all people should know how ridiculous it is to expect a totalitarian government to manage this. Turmoil ahead for China![/quote]

They don’t need to be consumers at all but if they reduce trade around the world who else will consume the goods but poor Chinese workers? Prices will come down regardless in terms of the Chinese currency. The government does not need to “share” anything for this to happen and indeed, if they don’t it will only happen that much more quickly.[/quote]

Either they export, their workers get paid more and consume or system collapse.

Prices of goods will not fall far enough for the workers to buy. [/quote]

You mean kinda like the housing market here in the US?

I’m not convinced.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You mean kinda like the housing market here in the US?

I’m not convinced.[/quote]

Kind of.

It is not a given but if the US economy tanks it is likely to screw up China too.

Another possibility is sloooow US decline that lets the Chinese adapt their industry.

Awesome comment from the Gizmodo pics…

“Yo China! I’m really happy for you, and Imma let you finish, but Top Gun had one of the best maneuvers of all time!”

China’s internal economics is all screwed up. It’s still a very poor country w/r/t most of its population. If you want to understand some of the imbalances that have built up, I suggest looking at this post http://mpettis.com/2010/09/the-politics-of-chinese-adjustment/ (and then exploring the rest of the blog - really good stuff).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
China’s internal economics is all screwed up. It’s still a very poor country w/r/t most of its population. If you want to understand some of the imbalances that have built up, I suggest looking at this post http://mpettis.com/2010/09/the-politics-of-chinese-adjustment/ (and then exploring the rest of the blog - really good stuff).[/quote]

I have a good friend who’s done alot of business in China, he tells me the same thing. Get outside of the major cities and it’s crazy dirt poor.

Good to see you back BB.