[quote]forbes wrote:
Man sinned, and the consequence for sin is death (physical and spiritual). God’s perfect holiness requires atonement. It’s either us or something else that must taste the FULL wrath of God for it to be complete. Fortunately God loves us, and did not want to see us suffer. So he sent Jesus to pay the price in FULL.
Jesus was the one and only sacrifice that was needed. His blood purifies us. The fires of purgatory basically say “Jesus, your sacrifice was pretty good, but not good enough. I still have the stink of sin on me”.
In my opinion this is the worst doctrine of the RCC faith.[/quote]
I would agree with forbes on this point, in my non-RCC opinion. Either Jesus Christ was effective in consuming the sin of the world on our behalf, or He wasn’t. I believe, He accomplished His work effectively.
I can understand talking about it BRIEFLY, in order to identify that Christ has already wiped it clean. But the more talking/lecturing/chiding/condescending/patronizing/judging/negotiating (etc., ad nauseam) there is about sins/hell/purgatory/penances/indulgences/heresies/unworthiness…the further and further one gets away from Christ and His glorious work.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to lure you into debate. I just wanted to know what the three most offensive things were, to you, about the Catholic Church. My intent was not to debate them with you. I was curious as to what you thought about the quote I posted above though.[/quote] No, it’s not your fault and there’s no need to apologize. This has been going on for months now. I told you what I thought of the quote above in my last post to you though. I understand the whole deposit of the faith thing. I understand the idea that the scriptures were born from the RCC and that only the RCC is authorized to interpret them. I understand the idea that RCC tradition and scripture together make up the whole of divine revelation and that it was the very tradition I now scorn that gave me the very scriptures I now love.
Why I do not buy any of this is readily available in my dozens of posts over the last several months detailing some of my reasons which would require volumes to adequately convey. In my view any person in whom dwells the living Christ of the New Testament should be revolted by every anti Christian thing the RCC is. You have a sound doctrine of God, theology proper, and it goes wildly careening downhill from there. Close your eyes and point at something else three times and you’ll likely get three things I believe God finds offensive about the Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic sacerdotal and orthodox protestant gospels are not the same. They who believe they are are fooling themselves. If Rome is Christ’s church then He is the devil. It is evil.
[/quote]
OK, now I think I know where you are coming from now. That last statement that you made is a little funny though. “If Rome is Christ’s church then He is the devil.” I think the truth of that statement to you should be more like this, if Rome is Christ’s church then I want no part of it. Because the reality is Christ is God and you should be as you have stated following Him. I just find that last statement a bit ironic basically saying that if the Catholic Church is Christ’s then you hate Him. Kind of make’s you the devil doesn’t it Christ being who He is and all? Gotta poke the angry lion a bit…
Jesus was the one and only sacrifice that was needed. His blood purifies us. The fires of purgatory basically say “Jesus, your sacrifice was pretty good, but not good enough. I still have the stink of sin on me”.
[/quote]
If anything the Catholic Church recognizes the completeness of Jesus’s sacrifice. Going so far as to make it a sin to be Baptized twice.
You are reading too much into this. Even though Jesus suffered and died for our sins, we are still sinners. Hence we need confession to and purification from God to be in full communion with God. Just as you confess your sins during life, you confess your sins during purgatory.
If you believed your logic, you would never have to confess your sins, be sorry, etc. because Jesus already died for that. Jesus, however, called us to confess our sins and denounce the devil.[/quote]
This is wrong. Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t take away from confessing my sins to him or being sorry for sinning. His sacrifice was so that God CAN forgive me and purify me when I do confess.
The Muslims believe that God doesn’t require atonement of sins and that if you sin, God will just forgive you. But God will not just forgive without atonement first. Jesus served as that atonement. So when I do ask for forgiveness and to be purified, God is willing, because his wrath has been quenched.
Jesus served as a FULL sacrifice. Meaning belief in him does PURIFY, does JUSTIFY, and does make RIGHTEOUS whom soever believes in him. There is no requirement for cleansing of sins because Jesus’ blood cleanses us and this is in scripture. Purgatory is not.
[quote]forbes wrote:
OMG this is bulls!@t. I had a whole post that didn’t show up! I have to do it again.
[/quote]
I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), but I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn’t speak in Greek, he spoke in Aramaic. The word for Peter in Aramaic, means big rock…like one that you’d lay down for foundation.
Jesus was the one and only sacrifice that was needed. His blood purifies us. The fires of purgatory basically say “Jesus, your sacrifice was pretty good, but not good enough. I still have the stink of sin on me”.
[/quote]
If anything the Catholic Church recognizes the completeness of Jesus’s sacrifice. Going so far as to make it a sin to be Baptized twice.
You are reading too much into this. Even though Jesus suffered and died for our sins, we are still sinners. Hence we need confession to and purification from God to be in full communion with God. Just as you confess your sins during life, you confess your sins during purgatory.
If you believed your logic, you would never have to confess your sins, be sorry, etc. because Jesus already died for that. Jesus, however, called us to confess our sins and denounce the devil.[/quote]
This is wrong. Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t take away from confessing my sins to him or being sorry for sinning. His sacrifice was so that God CAN forgive me and purify me when I do confess.
The Muslims believe that God doesn’t require atonement of sins and that if you sin, God will just forgive you. But God will not just forgive without atonement first. Jesus served as that atonement. So when I do ask for forgiveness and to be purified, God is willing, because his wrath has been quenched. [/quote]
I don’t think that is what Muslims believe. When you ask for forgiveness do you have a perfectly contrite heart?
[quote]
Jesus served as a FULL sacrifice. Meaning belief in him does PURIFY, does JUSTIFY, and does make RIGHTEOUS whom soever believes in him. There is no requirement for cleansing of sins because Jesus’ blood cleanses us and this is in scripture. Purgatory is not. [/quote]
Actually it is:
“For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (2 Macc. 12:44-45).
“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Matt. 5:25-26).
“Each manâ??s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any manâ??s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey . . .” (1 Peter 3:18-20).
“But nothing unclean shall enter it [heaven] . . .” (Rev. 21:27).
If you really don’t want to be like the first Christians, then fine say that, and I’ll have no more argument. However, if you want to have the faith of the early Christians than believing in purgatory is necessary.
Do you agree we won’t be sinning in Heaven? Well then, we need to be purified, just because we are clean of our sins, doesn’t mean our nature is still not fallen. Between the sinfulness of this world and the glories of Heaven, we have to be purified. This is held by Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Protestants (era 1500’s), Catholics, and Orthodox names be different, but same concept.
[quote]forbes wrote:
OMG this is bulls!@t. I had a whole post that didn’t show up! I have to do it again.
[/quote]
I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), but I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn’t speak in Greek, he spoke in Aramaic. The word for Peter in Aramaic, means big rock…like one that you’d lay down for foundation.[/quote]
Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the message (scriptures) were conveyed in Greek, and therefore we should look at the Greek. Remember the Bible is God inspired so if we wanted the original to be in Aramaic, it would have been. God had it made in Greek so from the Greek I will interpret it.
I first want to say that these debates can get heated and we can lose sight. I created this thread to understand what it truly is Catholics believe. I get more in depth answers when we “debate” rather than when I just ask “what is purgatory, what are indulgenses, what does it mean to intercede? etc” Also, traffic is a b!@ch, but at least its good time to converse with someone else (if they are in the car) or commune with God.
Anyways, a few things.
Muslims do believe what I stated above. I have 5 Muslim friends. They all said “why would God have to come down and die for our sins so we can be forgiven? Why can’t God just forgive you when you apologize?”
The early Christians did not believe in Purgatory and I’m sorry, but none of the scriptures that you posted are talking about it.
Mathew 5:25-26 is talking about making reconciliation with an accuser who is bringing you to court. Ya, you will not get out of prison without either serving your allotted time or paying the amount required to make bail.
1 Peter 3: 18-20 talks about the Holy Spirit ministering to those in prison. The Holy Spirit convicts our spirits to listen to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit doesn’t talk to our flesh, but our own spirits. These prisoners were still alive in the flesh in a physical prison, not in Purgatory. The next verse talks about God saving 8 souls during the days of Noah, from the great flood. Obviously he wasn’t saving 8 literal souls, but 8 individuals who honored God.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is once again not talking about Purgatory. Here is another article (I apologize in advance for the several walls of text I have been leaving, but they are necessary):
The doctrine of Purgatory in the Catholic church is explained in this statement from the Second Vatican Council, p. 63, which says,
"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments. "
The Protestant church has objected to the doctrine of Purgatory by stating that this teaching denies the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. To say that our sins are expiated by our suffering is an insult to the cross of Christ since it says that the cross was not sufficient to cleanse us of our sins. It says that we must suffer, that we must do something to have our sins fully cleansed. Instead, the Protestants maintain that Jesus sacrifice alone is what justifies and removes from us all guilt. We look to the cross and to the cross alone for the complete forgiveness of our sins and, though our works will one day be judged, we have passed out of condemnation (Rom. 8:1). Our works reflect on rewards in heaven, not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins (1 Pet. 2:24). There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, “It is finished,” (John 19:30). In Greek the term “it is finished” is “tetelestai.” It was a term used in legal contexts to state that a debt had been paid in full. "Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning “paid in full.” (Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc., 1983, 1985). Therefore, there is no need for purgatory.
Nevertheless, because the Protestants appeal so much to the Bible, the Catholics have sought to find the doctrine of Purgatory within its pages. One such verse is 1 Cor. 3:15.
"If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
As with any verse in the Bible, to fully understand it, we must look at it in its biblical context. Following is 1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each mans work. 14If any mans work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
The context speaks of Paul having planted the Corinthian church and that another person was building upon that work: verse 6 says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.” Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).
Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.
1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on “that day.” Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, “Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of mens hearts; and then each mans praise will come to him from God.”
Note also, 1 Pet. 1:6-7, “In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
2 Pet. 3:10-13, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”
Purgatory is a dangerous doctrine that makes the Cross of Christ insufficient by requiring the person to undergo suffering in order to be made worthy of being with God. This is a false teaching and is to be avoided. We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), not by faith and works (Rom. 3:28).
Revelation 21:27 is a straightforward statement. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. But remember Jesus cleans and purifies us from our sins. You say that even though we are forgiven, our natures are still sinful. Well at Christ’s second coming, our bodies will be transformed:
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
I do not believe the very first Christians believed in purgatory. It was fabricated by the Roman Catholic Church by the unknowing influence of the evil one. Satan wants people to believe in the insufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice because he knows that such a belief will keep people from salvation.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< OK, now I think I know where you are coming from now. That last statement that you made is a little funny though. “If Rome is Christ’s church then He is the devil.” I think the truth of that statement to you should be more like this, if Rome is Christ’s church then I want no part of it. Because the reality is Christ is God and you should be as you have stated following Him. I just find that last statement a bit ironic basically saying that if the Catholic Church is Christ’s then you hate Him. Kind of make’s you the devil doesn’t it Christ being who He is and all? Gotta poke the angry lion a bit…[/quote]Praise the glorious name of JESUS!!! We have a sighting boys n girls!!! A consistent Catholic!!! HALLELUJAH!!! I’ll sleep good tonight knowing you guys still exist. I have done everything I could possibly pray up, FOR MONTHS, to get somebody to finally declare me an evil satanic sinner and here you do it on your first try. Well done guvner.
They wouldn’t call me even presently lost because I kept saying that salvation is not found in the RCC gospel and they knew that if they said the same about me and mine it would destroy their all important testimony of universally tolerant grooviness. So to avoid that they simply kept telling me that I would probably go to heaven despite my unleashed vitriol against “the one true most holy apostolic church”. Well not just me in heaven, but practicing open homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and generally Christ denying God hating atheistic pagans as well. (I’m reeling that one in slow Chris. Don’t let me down buddy. That’s a good one there)
What you have just demonstrated is that there can be no spiritual concord between people who believe what I believe and people who believe what you believe. I sincerely congratulate you for recognizing it. This was once common knowledge in a time when protestantism knew what it was and the vatican still had a pair. Now that neither is true, the devil (the beguiler in chief) rejoices in convincing truly regenerate believers that Rome, while still being very much in error mind you, is their friend and full of fellow Christians who’s only problem is some funny practices.
I repeat. The protestant orthodox and RCC gospels are not the same. They just aren’t and as soon as some of my well meaning neo ecumenical brethren here learn enough about Rome (and, not to sound the wrong way, maybe even their own faith as well) they will see that too. Actually I would grant that the true gospel of Christ may still be submerged somewhere 20,000 leagues under the unholy see (hey, not bad huh? =] ) It’s just crusted over with such a thick armor of satanic barnacles that it is an even greater than usual work of God’s unfathomable grace if anybody actually finds it there.
Angry? You don’t know me at all friend. I’ll confess to a spell of aggravation here and there when dealing with the subject of false religion, but if you could be secretly listening in my private prayer time you would KNOW that I am angry with NOBODY here and just the very opposite is true. You don’t understand that because your legalistic man made religion keeps that sort of thing hidden from you while you make logically consistent but wholly erroneous posts like the one above. I’ve got another new Catholic on my prayer list =] You guys are gonna get your own time soon and I’m not even kidding.
What is my goal in all this? I want as many people to be certain as I have anything to do with that knowledgeable adherents of Roman Catholicism and protestant orthodoxy cannot both consistently have the same salvation. I would have stopped right from the beginning if the Catholics here would have just said that. Instead we get the bloated waddling pontification about how we are saved only because the RCC exists. Just keep lookin brothers. Mary and the saints and relics and the mass and transubstantiation and scredotal ceremonialism are all just symptoms.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), >>>[/quote]Will you knock it off while driving. Good God man, you’re gonna get in an accident over some forum posts. We’ll wait. You need to get married Chris. You got waaaay too much time on your hands.
[quote]forbes wrote:
OMG this is bulls!@t. I had a whole post that didn’t show up! I have to do it again.
[/quote]
I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), but I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn’t speak in Greek, he spoke in Aramaic. The word for Peter in Aramaic, means big rock…like one that you’d lay down for foundation.[/quote]
Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the message (scriptures) were conveyed in Greek, and therefore we should look at the Greek. Remember the Bible is God inspired so if we wanted the original to be in Aramaic, it would have been. God had it made in Greek so from the Greek I will interpret it.[/quote]
You know we don’t actually have the originals, right? Most of the authors of the books in the Bible knew Aramaic as a first language. The Aramaic of what Jesus said, means big rock.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), >>>[/quote]Will you knock it off while driving. Good God man, you’re gonna get in an accident over some forum posts. We’ll wait. You need to get married Chris. You got waaaay too much time on your hands.
[/quote]
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< OK, now I think I know where you are coming from now. That last statement that you made is a little funny though. “If Rome is Christ’s church then He is the devil.” I think the truth of that statement to you should be more like this, if Rome is Christ’s church then I want no part of it. Because the reality is Christ is God and you should be as you have stated following Him. I just find that last statement a bit ironic basically saying that if the Catholic Church is Christ’s then you hate Him. Kind of make’s you the devil doesn’t it Christ being who He is and all? Gotta poke the angry lion a bit…[/quote]Praise the glorious name of JESUS!!! We have a sighting boys n girls!!! A consistent Catholic!!! HALLELUJAH!!! I’ll sleep good tonight knowing you guys still exist. I have done everything I could possibly pray up, FOR MONTHS, to get somebody to finally declare me an evil satanic sinner and here you do it on your first try. Well done guvner.
They wouldn’t call me even presently lost because I kept saying that salvation is not found in the RCC gospel and they knew that if they said the same about me and mine it would destroy their all important testimony of universally tolerant grooviness. So to avoid that they simply kept telling me that I would probably go to heaven despite my unleashed vitriol against “the one true most holy apostolic church”. Well not just me in heaven, but practicing open homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and generally Christ denying God hating atheistic pagans as well. (I’m reeling that one in slow Chris. Don’t let me down buddy. That’s a good one there)
What you have just demonstrated is that there can be no spiritual concord between people who believe what I believe and people who believe what you believe. I sincerely congratulate you for recognizing it. This was once common knowledge in a time when protestantism knew what it was and the vatican still had a pair. Now that neither is true, the devil (the beguiler in chief) rejoices in convincing truly regenerate believers that Rome, while still being very much in error mind you, is their friend and full of fellow Christians who’s only problem is some funny practices.
I repeat. The protestant orthodox and RCC gospels are not the same. They just aren’t and as soon as some of my well meaning neo ecumenical brethren here learn enough about Rome (and, not to sound the wrong way, maybe even their own faith as well) they will see that too. Actually I would grant that the true gospel of Christ may still be submerged somewhere 20,000 leagues under the unholy see (hey, not bad huh? =] ) It’s just crusted over with such a thick armor of satanic barnacles that it is an even greater than usual work of God’s unfathomable grace if anybody actually finds it there.
Angry? You don’t know me at all friend. I’ll confess to a spell of aggravation here and there when dealing with the subject of false religion, but if you could be secretly listening in my private prayer time you would KNOW that I am angry with NOBODY here and just the very opposite is true. You don’t understand that because your legalistic man made religion keeps that sort of thing hidden from you while you make logically consistent but wholly erroneous posts like the one above. I’ve got another new Catholic on my prayer list =] You guys are gonna get your own time soon and I’m not even kidding.
What is my goal in all this? I want as many people to be certain as I have anything to do with that knowledgeable adherents of Roman Catholicism and protestant orthodoxy cannot both consistently have the same salvation. I would have stopped right from the beginning if the Catholics here would have just said that. Instead we get the bloated waddling pontification about how we are saved only because the RCC exists. Just keep lookin brothers. Mary and the saints and relics and the mass and transubstantiation and scredotal ceremonialism are all just symptoms.
[/quote]
Sorry, Tirib I am not going to condemn someone when speaking on theology. However, I have always held you are lost. I now see that you are uncharitable and ignorant. Your sarcasm is not welcome.
P.S. The reason you think Catholics are not consistent is because you expect us to form to your ignorance, you don’t hate the Catholic Church, you and James White hate what you guys dreamed up as the Catholic Church.
[quote]forbes wrote:
OMG this is bulls!@t. I had a whole post that didn’t show up! I have to do it again.
[/quote]
I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), but I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn’t speak in Greek, he spoke in Aramaic. The word for Peter in Aramaic, means big rock…like one that you’d lay down for foundation.[/quote]
Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the message (scriptures) were conveyed in Greek, and therefore we should look at the Greek. Remember the Bible is God inspired so if we wanted the original to be in Aramaic, it would have been. God had it made in Greek so from the Greek I will interpret it.[/quote]
You know we don’t actually have the originals, right? Most of the authors of the books in the Bible knew Aramaic as a first language. The Aramaic of what Jesus said, means big rock.[/quote]
Yes but none the less scholars agree that it was written in Greek. Not one book of the N.T has been preserved in Hebrew or Aramaic, only Greek. Therefore, I will look at the Greek and interpret scriptures based on that, because if god wanted us to know the meaning of the words in Aramaic, he would have preserved that Aramaic version too, if there was any.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), >>>[/quote]Will you knock it off while driving. Good God man, you’re gonna get in an accident over some forum posts. We’ll wait. You need to get married Chris. You got waaaay too much time on your hands.
[/quote]
What if I don’t want to get married?[/quote]You do
OK, then I’ll shut up directly about the RCC in these forums for at least one week and let you guys do all the talkin. We’ll see what’s dreamed up and I’ll still be your very best friend. Starting riiiiiight now. 7 pm Sunday the 9th.
I first want to say that these debates can get heated and we can lose sight. I created this thread to understand what it truly is Catholics believe. I get more in depth answers when we “debate” rather than when I just ask “what is purgatory, what are indulgenses, what does it mean to intercede? etc” Also, traffic is a b!@ch, but at least its good time to converse with someone else (if they are in the car) or commune with God.
Anyways, a few things.
Muslims do believe what I stated above. I have 5 Muslim friends. They all said “why would God have to come down and die for our sins so we can be forgiven? Why can’t God just forgive you when you apologize?”
[/quote]
I guess Muslims like Protestants can make up what they want. I have studied a little bit about Islam and they do recognized purgatory. Imams, as well as, devout Muslims have explained their beliefs on purgatory.
Which document is this from?
There are three things which are doctrine on purgatory 1) there is a final purification after death and it does exist, 2) that it involves some kind of pain, 3) the purification process can be helped by prayers and offerings by the living to God.
So, the early Fathers of the Church believed in purgatory…and 1500 years later someone comes along and says it didn’t happen…so therefore it didn’t happen. Sorry, I will hold to the early Church Fathers.
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: â??Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteousâ??” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).
“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).
“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3â??4 [A.D. 202])
“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
“But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (ibid., 172:2).
“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).
“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).
“The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death” (ibid., 29:109).
“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of deathâ??birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).
“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1â??2 [A.D. 216]).
Sorry, I’ll be believing Augustine and Tertullian, before I believe some heretic from the 16th century.
Sorry, I disagree. This is not the faith that the early Christians and Jews held.
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Revelation 21:27 is a straightforward statement. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. But remember Jesus cleans and purifies us from our sins. You say that even though we are forgiven, our natures are still sinful. Well at Christ’s second coming, our bodies will be transformed:
1 Corinthians 15:52
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
I do not believe the very first Christians believed in purgatory. It was fabricated by the Roman Catholic Church by the unknowing influence of the evil one. Satan wants people to believe in the insufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice because he knows that such a belief will keep people from salvation. [/quote]
I’ll show you some more of what the early Church Fathers believed (and if you think the Church was deceived, you also believe that Jesus lied):
“The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord” (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).
“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
“Let us help and commemorate them. If Jobâ??s sons were purified by their fatherâ??s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
I rest my case that the early Christian’s faith included purgatory or final purification, just as Jews, Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox believe.
[quote]forbes wrote:
OMG this is bulls!@t. I had a whole post that didn’t show up! I have to do it again.
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I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), but I just wanted to point out that Jesus didn’t speak in Greek, he spoke in Aramaic. The word for Peter in Aramaic, means big rock…like one that you’d lay down for foundation.[/quote]
Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the message (scriptures) were conveyed in Greek, and therefore we should look at the Greek. Remember the Bible is God inspired so if we wanted the original to be in Aramaic, it would have been. God had it made in Greek so from the Greek I will interpret it.[/quote]
You know we don’t actually have the originals, right? Most of the authors of the books in the Bible knew Aramaic as a first language. The Aramaic of what Jesus said, means big rock.[/quote]
Yes but none the less scholars agree that it was written in Greek. Not one book of the N.T has been preserved in Hebrew or Aramaic, only Greek. Therefore, I will look at the Greek and interpret scriptures based on that, because if god wanted us to know the meaning of the words in Aramaic, he would have preserved that Aramaic version too, if there was any.[/quote]
Okay, let me rephrase this, we do not have an original copy of any of the books in the Bible. And, by the way Jesus still spoke in Aramaic, and Greek isn’t a perfect translation from Aramaic, so it might be important to know Aramaic…since that is the language which Jesus spoke. Yes, ask Pushharder, he has a copy of certain books in Aramaic. And, I’ll repeat, we do no have an original writing from the Apostles, at closest we are two copies away from the original.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), >>>[/quote]Will you knock it off while driving. Good God man, you’re gonna get in an accident over some forum posts. We’ll wait. You need to get married Chris. You got waaaay too much time on your hands.
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What if I don’t want to get married?[/quote]You do
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That ultimately doesn’t matter, as if God wanted me to be married, he would have married me.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I couldn’t read all that (I am in traffic and was stopped), >>>[/quote]Will you knock it off while driving. Good God man, you’re gonna get in an accident over some forum posts. We’ll wait. You need to get married Chris. You got waaaay too much time on your hands.
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What if I don’t want to get married?[/quote]You do
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That ultimately doesn’t matter, as if God wanted me to be married, he would have married me. [/quote]Aw now come on Chris. I AM NOT picking on you for not being married for Pete’s sake.