Catholic Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1081

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

The excesses of the RC Church were more pronounced during the dark ages. I think you know enough about her history to concur with this. I guess your meaning is the institution has been reformed, and bringing up the dark ages isn’t really fair anymore. I would argue the institution has not reformed it’s foundation, and that’s the main problem.

I intended to point at institutional evils, not individuals that do evil, and are part of an institution or association, like say a highschool coaching association. The Ustachi is an interesting example to consider, as you say it was disavowed. It would be worth researching how closely they tied their actions to their Catholicism. But I’ll leave that to you. However, such institutional brutality as the inquisition was official practice.
[/quote]

Your advances against the Catholic Church do not answer my question as to who we should look to as an authority to know which books to include in the Bible.

Your advance here is flawed factually and logically.

Factually:

  1. Jesus showed his authority and answered where he got it from, this isn’t my perceived need. Authority is fundamental to Judeo-Christian religions. It’s also fundamental to those outside of radical individualism. You can’t just go around doing whatever you want.
  2. The Catholic Church does not teach such things about knowing right. After all, we are the care takers of Natural Law, which states plainly the law is written on man’s heart because his Creator put it there.
  3. There is a difference between the royal priesthood, which is conferred on to us as well as being a king and prophet, and the hierarchical priesthood which we see when Jesus ordains the Apostles.

Logically:

  1. You presume that a personal relationship requires that there is nothing that you have to go through. You give a false dichotomy, either we have a personal relationship or we have to go through something. Yet, you haven’t explained why there is only two options and it is either/or.
  2. Argumentum Ad hominem. Whether there is a need or not for authority that stems from the dark ages (which St. Augustine came out of), has not answered the question at hand. It maybe true that I may need to reevaluate my need for authority. But, I think next time I go to the doctor, I’ll still ask him where he got his education from. And, I’ll still ask the cop for his ID, and the lawyer for proof he passed the bar.

Further, this does not in anyway answer my question of why your bible is authoritative, and what authority do I look to, to know the the books in your bible are the only ones I’m supposed to follow. If I am to follow the truth, since truth sets me free, I want to make good and well sure that I am actually following the truth.

1082

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
If you understand God better than a 2,000 year old tradition, you must be pretty smart.
[/quote]

My sentiments.[/quote]

Disappointing to see you concur with this guy Chris.[/quote]

Why is it disappointing?

1083

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
If you understand God better than a 2,000 year old tradition, you must be pretty smart.
[/quote]

My sentiments.[/quote]

Disappointing to see you concur with this guy Chris.[/quote]

Why is it disappointing?[/quote]

I gave an example of how the traditions of his church are obviously flawed in regard to who was the first pope. So, it wouldn’t take much for me to be smarter. It seems like you skipped that post, and I’m dissappointed.

1084

Chris,

As we read earlier in Mark 7, there are traditions that develop over time that may need to be rejected. How is this to be done correctly? Is it necessary for us to wait for the same institution that produced these errors to reform itself?

1085

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There is a difference between the royal priesthood, which is conferred on to us as well as being a king and prophet, and the hierarchical priesthood which we see when Jesus ordains the Apostles. [/quote]

By whose authority do you make this statement? Is this authority inherently more trustworthy than my statements that follow, which are based on a simple reading of the bible text?

Fact 1) Jesus never once calls anyone in the Gospels a “priest”, except those Jewish priests.

Fact 2) He did not initiate any hierarchy beyond that of the office of apostle. No such discussion is in the Gospels anywhere. (And no, He did not do it in Mt 6:18 as our reading of Acts clarifies. Besides, “that Rock was Christ.” (1Co 10:4 KJV)

Don’t you see- if their is such a tradition that believes in what you describe above, it’s the product of men’s imaginations. It has no basis in Scripture that it should be respected.

Yes, I know. How do I know which bible I should read to overthrow the tradition? That’s good to ask. Better than asking which tradition I should follow in order to overthrow the plain reading of the bible. If you feel undone, God did not intend for you to be so. How do you know God loved you and sent his Son to die for your sins? Did you need the Church to verify it for you? I don’t think so. When you read it, it was the Spirit of God that witnessed to your soul directly and began to draw you to Himself.

Your analogy of checking out your doctor’s credentials will be helpful here, and I’ll expand on that- You would want to know what school he graduated from. I would say more than that. How about what place in his class did he graduate? Every school puts out some good and some mediocre doctors. Can’t find that out? How about what kind of reputation does he have for dealing with the issue you are facing. And you better read up on the problem yourself too.

I’ll give you an example from my own life. Both my wife and I supplement our thyroid. She also needs Estradiol and Progesterone. If I hadn’t done some reading about synthetic T4 only vs. dessicated porcine thyroid, and synthetic vs bio-identical E and P, I could have easily been lead astray by any number of traditional mainstream doctors. But you might ask- well if you read 6 books, they’ve studied for 4 years? Yep it’s weird, I can find out what they should know but don’t. There are several reasons for this. I have no bias for one. I don’t have a previous body of outdated and incorrect knowledge in my head to clean out for another. I don’t have to admit I was wrong for the last 10 years. After taking responsibility for myself, I was able to get a good bearing on the issues, and then find a doctor that knows what he should know, and he helped us get squared away. The trick is to get going in the right direction, then find others to help you walk with a firmer step. Am I smarter than one of the mainstream doctors I say would’ve led me astray? Maybe, maybe not. But I read the right stuff, and payed attention to what I should pay attention to.

God gave you reason, which is actually a clumsy tool at times, and intuition, which can function above reason when you feel at a loss. Ask God to help you, as you "believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6 KJV) I’ve given an example above about finding the right practical knowledge. Don’t you think the Spirit of God will direct you to that living water with which God desires you to quench your soul by?

We’ve had a long discussion Chris, I’ll have to leave it here. I don’t have as much free time to hang out on PWI as I’d like. I’ll try to drop in again when I can.

1086

Monsieur Fibroid,

You have no avatar, may I suggest this one?

1087


Pity Savonarola was executed, by his own mother church which he tried to reform. And by the pope no less.

I’m thinkin’ you would have been on the side of his executioners, official tradition and all. Then this one is more appropriate.

1088

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:<<< But you might ask- well if you read 6 books, they’ve studied for 4 years? Yep it’s weird, I can find out what they should know but don’t. >>>[/quote]This is huge. Not just here, but all over life. I remember TC saying once that he probably knew much more than most lettered doctors when it came to medical knowledge of testosterone. I do not doubt that at all. All “education” itself actually is, is study. People can do that on their own and not having the stamp of approval of some institution is not automatic disqualification from having authoritative input on a given subject.

Having that stamp of approval is not necessarily meaningless. That’s not what I’m saying, but by itself it doesn’t impress me. I’ll go to the big guys in the gym over a scrawny doctor every time when I wanna know how to get bigger. I seek godly counsel from the men I’ve spent time in prayer with and whose lives I’ve watched, whether they have a seminary degree or not. The track record of the Catholic “magesterium” is utterly abysmal on every level. I would look just about anywhere but there for the authority of Christ who alone is the head and husband of His church bride.

1089

In interesting article Bro Chris on Savonarola here: http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/tfm1869.htm

Notice it was his getting a hold of a copy of Holy Scripture that set him on the path to reform. He was truly a man ahead of his time. And the institution that inhumanly and barbarously tortured him, is now forced to acknowledge the same.

A few sentences from the article:

But especially was he emphatic in his testimony to the preciousness of the Scriptures. “The ruin of the church,” he said, “is to be traced to this, that Christians no longer read the Scriptures; it is owing to this that thick darkness broods over the Christian people, and that impiety gets so much the upper hand.” He very imperfectly understood the Scriptures, but he was alone in demanding that they should be read, and their lessons taught to the people.

1090

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There is a difference between the royal priesthood, which is conferred on to us as well as being a king and prophet, and the hierarchical priesthood which we see when Jesus ordains the Apostles. [/quote]

By whose authority do you make this statement? Is this authority inherently more trustworthy than my statements that follow, which are based on a simple reading of the bible text?

Fact 1) Jesus never once calls anyone in the Gospels a “priest”, except those Jewish priests.

Fact 2) He did not initiate any hierarchy beyond that of the office of apostle…

[/quote]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.HTM

1091

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
If you understand God better than a 2,000 year old tradition, you must be pretty smart.
[/quote]

My sentiments.[/quote]

Disappointing to see you concur with this guy Chris.[/quote]

Why is it disappointing?[/quote]

I gave an example of how the traditions of his church are obviously flawed in regard to who was the first pope. So, it wouldn’t take much for me to be smarter. It seems like you skipped that post, and I’m dissappointed. [/quote]

He was talking about the bible. We’re all talking about the Bible right now, and you keep making non-sequitors.

1092

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Chris,

As we read earlier in Mark 7, there are traditions that develop over time that may need to be rejected. How is this to be done correctly? Is it necessary for us to wait for the same institution that produced these errors to reform itself?[/quote]

What does this have to do with who we look to, to know which books are in the Bible?

1093

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There is a difference between the royal priesthood, which is conferred on to us as well as being a king and prophet, and the hierarchical priesthood which we see when Jesus ordains the Apostles. [/quote]

By whose authority do you make this statement? Is this authority inherently more trustworthy than my statements that follow, which are based on a simple reading of the bible text?[/quote]

Yes, it’s historical and it’s in your own Bible (assuming you are using the reformed-protestant canon and not one of the other dozen canons by protestant or Luther’s canon).

However, what does this have to do with by what authority do we know which books are in the Bible?

1094

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Pity Savonarola was executed, by his own mother church which he tried to reform. And by the pope no less.

I’m thinkin’ you would have been on the side of his executioners, official tradition and all. Then this one is more appropriate.[/quote]

Actually he wasn’t killed by his Mother Church, he was killed by the Florentine political party Arrabbiati. What does this have to do with which authority to look to?

1095

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
In interesting article Bro Chris on Savonarola here: http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/tfm1869.htm

Notice it was his getting a hold of a copy of Holy Scripture that set him on the path to reform. He was truly a man ahead of his time. And the institution that inhumanly and barbarously tortured him, is now forced to acknowledge the same.

A few sentences from the article:

But especially was he emphatic in his testimony to the preciousness of the Scriptures. “The ruin of the church,” he said, “is to be traced to this, that Christians no longer read the Scriptures; it is owing to this that thick darkness broods over the Christian people, and that impiety gets so much the upper hand.” He very imperfectly understood the Scriptures, but he was alone in demanding that they should be read, and their lessons taught to the people.[/quote]

I studied Savonarola for my second history project in high school…as a Calvinist. However, I don’t not understand how this has anything to do with my question.

1096

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:<<< But you might ask- well if you read 6 books, they’ve studied for 4 years? Yep it’s weird, I can find out what they should know but don’t. >>>[/quote]This is huge. Not just here, but all over life. I remember TC saying once that he probably knew much more than most lettered doctors when it came to medical knowledge of testosterone. I do not doubt that at all. All “education” itself actually is, is study. People can do that on their own and not having the stamp of approval of some institution is not automatic disqualification from having authoritative input on a given subject.

Having that stamp of approval is not necessarily meaningless. That’s not what I’m saying, but by itself it doesn’t impress me. I’ll go to the big guys in the gym over a scrawny doctor every time when I wanna know how to get bigger. I seek godly counsel from the men I’ve spent time in prayer with and whose lives I’ve watched, whether they have a seminary degree or not. The track record of the Catholic “magesterium” is utterly abysmal on every level. I would look just about anywhere but there for the authority of Christ who alone is the head and husband of His church bride.

[/quote]

Yes, that is well and good, but where are we supposed to look for truth? What is the bulwark and pillar of truth???

How do I know which books are supposed to be in the Bible? I AM SO CONFUSED!

1097

I’ll restate it plainly for those who say I am wrong:

You say that I am to follow Luther’s doctrine Sola Scriptura, so how do I know which books belong in the Bible?

1098

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Pity Savonarola was executed, by his own mother church which he tried to reform. And by the pope no less.

I’m thinkin’ you would have been on the side of his executioners, official tradition and all. Then this one is more appropriate.[/quote]

Ahh the good ol’ days…He got off easy.

1099

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
If you understand God better than a 2,000 year old tradition, you must be pretty smart.
[/quote]

My sentiments.[/quote]

Disappointing to see you concur with this guy Chris.[/quote]

Why is it disappointing?[/quote]

Well, he’s a troll, now you know… He started off whacked and it went downhill from there. Knowing anything about Catholic doctrine cannot save him from himself.

1100

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There is a difference between the royal priesthood, which is conferred on to us as well as being a king and prophet, and the hierarchical priesthood which we see when Jesus ordains the Apostles. [/quote]

By whose authority do you make this statement? Is this authority inherently more trustworthy than my statements that follow, which are based on a simple reading of the bible text?

Fact 1) Jesus never once calls anyone in the Gospels a “priest”, except those Jewish priests.
[/quote]
Ne never said anyone should read the bible or go ‘sola scriptura’ but you and millions of other do it anyway.
The apostles, whom he put in charge of the church established it’s early order and gave permission to successors to do the same.
Jesus never said a lot of things we do and you do, but we do it anyway. I don’t see the point.
For instance, when did Jesus say go to church on sundays and wednesdays? Never. He never proclaimed to have moved the sabbath from saturday to sunday either, but that’s what we do…

It’s Matt 16:18 and it’s a square pag in a round hole. It’s something that I don’t get about protestants as to why that bothers them so much. Peter means ‘rock’ Jesus purposely changed his name to that, told him that he was going to build His church on Peter, Peter was the leader, the head cheese in the A.D. and apostolic succession started then by Jesus’s own prescription.
You cannot make a convincing argument that for 1500 years until Martin Luther came along, everybody had it wrong from the apostles forward. That dog, just don’t hunt.

King James is a heavily errant translation. It has over 800 well known errors. It was a translation to satisfy man, not to be true to the word of God. There’s better translations out there. For accuracy’s sake I would recommend either the ESV or NRSV. Those are the closest to the original texts you can get with out knowing arimaic, hewbrew and greek.

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