[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This will never be settled in an internet forum. Hyoooj topics abound, but with that said you can’t possibly know how badly I wish I could believe like you guys. I know these 4 things with unshakable certainty. There has never been an extended time in history when Rome was not immersed in some kind of loud public Christ dishonoring corruption. 2. The gospel, Jesus and epistemology I find unmistakably staring me in the face in the scriptures answers sweetly to the Spirit of the most high God who never fails to meet me in prayer. He’s there first. Not to mention His faithful walk with me through my days (and nights too). That gospel, Jesus and epistemology by their very nature utterly preclude the slightest possibility of Catholicism having anything whatever to do with them, except as a hostile adversary. (I don’t mean individual people). They cannot both be true
There is no possible way, just NO WAY, the God I know could ever sanction anything like the romish bureaucracy and most especially that abhorrent and abominable vatican city. 4. What this BlakeAJackson guy is saying. Catholicism displays absolutely no transforming power of the living God in the lives of it’s people whatsoever. They are with few exceptions just as dead as the world and for good reason. The church has taken the very Greek pagans that Paul denounced as the basis for their belief system. I have seen that blindingly displayed before my very eyes times too numerous to count right here in these forums. To say nothing of the rest of my life.
I don’t have all the answers at the moment, but I will go my earthly grave believing what I just said. You’re a decent man and a sharp guy and very well educated, but do not fool yourself into believing you have that magic info I’ve never heard that will change my mind [/quote]
You’re ignoring spiritual suicide. A man has the free will to reject the Church and her Faith in Christ. Rarely is a man forced to, and usually is becomes a martyr if they are killed, to renounce his faith.
As a saint said, those who create scandal are guilty of spiritual murder. Those who succumb to scandal are committing spiritual suicide…G-d could not ordain the Vatican City? Yet, Jesus himself sanctioned Judas AND Peter to teach.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You’ve probably elaborated on this before, but if you don’t mind…What is it about the Vatican City that is so offensive to you?[/quote]
He read a Dan Brown novel.[/quote]
Or, Roman Catholicism.
If you ever want to learn where all Anti-Catholic statements, ‘facts,’ and where you yourself can make a million dollars by putting yourself up against the Church…read Roman Catholicism. Most expensive toilet paper you’ll ever buy.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
… 4. What this BlakeAJackson guy is saying. Catholicism displays absolutely no transforming power of the living God in the lives of it’s people whatsoever. They are with few exceptions just as dead as the world and for good reason. The church has taken the very Greek pagans that Paul denounced as the basis for their belief system. I have seen that blindingly displayed before my very eyes times too numerous to count right here in these forums. To say nothing of the rest of my life.
[/quote]
Thank you for stating so clearly what it was that drove me away. I really have no questions that I need answered by the Church, I have found my answers elsewhere.
One thing that I found in my own personal quest for answers was the Philokalia. I think that this is something that serves as a great example of the type of thing that could help add value to the church as a whole. Prayer and learning prayers are present but learning how to pray is something that I never encountered, and I think most Catholics never have or will as things stand, clergy included.
Unfortunately this was not introduced to me by any living Christian, but was found through JD Salinger’s, Franny and Zooey which led me to The Way of The Pilgrim and then to the Philokalia. I would recommend that everyone take the journey to this book in that way if at all possible.
I was very happy to see someone had mentioned the Jesus prayer and reciting it 100 times a day earlier in this thread. I know that some found the specified 100 funny, but if you know the end purpose of what this practice is to be, it is something that any Christian would strive for with all their efforts. If we did not have to suffer the burden of living in a world as we do that requires so much of our time to be spent on our jobs and building identities that bring us further from knowing our true selves and g-d we would all without a doubt want to achieve what this prayer has done for so many of the Ascetics. After finding out about this it made the Catholic clergy even more depraved a bunch to me. It certainly made it clear that the practice of Catholicism, as I was a part, was insufficient and would not bring spirituality or g-d in to my life in any purposeful way. It is funny that Catholics pray through the saints and they chose to focus on miracles rather than the life long efforts that they put in to practicing Ascetic lives. If we all strived to be such Christians there would be no need for the church and no money for the coffers. How many priests are confirmed saints is all I am asking?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
… 4. What this BlakeAJackson guy is saying. Catholicism displays absolutely no transforming power of the living God in the lives of it’s people whatsoever. They are with few exceptions just as dead as the world and for good reason. The church has taken the very Greek pagans that Paul denounced as the basis for their belief system. I have seen that blindingly displayed before my very eyes times too numerous to count right here in these forums. To say nothing of the rest of my life.
[/quote]
Thank you for stating so clearly what it was that drove me away. I really have no questions that I need answered by the Church, I have found my answers elsewhere.
One thing that I found in my own personal quest for answers was the Philokalia. I think that this is something that serves as a great example of the type of thing that could help add value to the church as a whole. Prayer and learning prayers are present but learning how to pray is something that I never encountered, and I think most Catholics never have or will as things stand, clergy included.
Unfortunately this was not introduced to me by any living Christian, but was found through JD Salinger’s, Franny and Zooey which led me to The Way of The Pilgrim and then to the Philokalia. I would recommend that everyone take the journey to this book in that way if at all possible.
I was very happy to see someone had mentioned the Jesus prayer and reciting it 100 times a day earlier in this thread. I know that some found the specified 100 funny, but if you know the end purpose of what this practice is to be, it is something that any Christian would strive for with all their efforts. If we did not have to suffer the burden of living in a world as we do that requires so much of our time to be spent on our jobs and building identities that bring us further from knowing our true selves and g-d we would all without a doubt want to achieve what this prayer has done for so many of the Ascetics. After finding out about this it made the Catholic clergy even more depraved a bunch to me. It certainly made it clear that the practice of Catholicism, as I was a part, was insufficient and would not bring spirituality or g-d in to my life in any purposeful way. It is funny that Catholics pray through the saints and they chose to focus on miracles rather than the life long efforts that they put in to practicing Ascetic lives. If we all strived to be such Christians there would be no need for the church and no money for the coffers. How many priests are confirmed saints is all I am asking?
[/quote]
So, you claim Eastern Orthodox, but you hate your Catholic brothers? The guys with the same faith as you? And, they are called mystics, and almost all of them that wrote talked about the need for the Church. Maybe you should read them again.
And, why do you condemn Catholics for focusing on the mysteries of Christ? So, if we just try to live Ascetic lives we’ll make it to heaven? Good people don’t make it to heaven, those saved by the Grace of the Lord go to Heaven.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
… 4. What this BlakeAJackson guy is saying. Catholicism displays absolutely no transforming power of the living God in the lives of it’s people whatsoever. They are with few exceptions just as dead as the world and for good reason. The church has taken the very Greek pagans that Paul denounced as the basis for their belief system. I have seen that blindingly displayed before my very eyes times too numerous to count right here in these forums. To say nothing of the rest of my life.
[/quote]
Thank you for stating so clearly what it was that drove me away. I really have no questions that I need answered by the Church, I have found my answers elsewhere.
One thing that I found in my own personal quest for answers was the Philokalia. I think that this is something that serves as a great example of the type of thing that could help add value to the church as a whole. Prayer and learning prayers are present but learning how to pray is something that I never encountered, and I think most Catholics never have or will as things stand, clergy included.
Unfortunately this was not introduced to me by any living Christian, but was found through JD Salinger’s, Franny and Zooey which led me to The Way of The Pilgrim and then to the Philokalia. I would recommend that everyone take the journey to this book in that way if at all possible.
I was very happy to see someone had mentioned the Jesus prayer and reciting it 100 times a day earlier in this thread. I know that some found the specified 100 funny, but if you know the end purpose of what this practice is to be, it is something that any Christian would strive for with all their efforts. If we did not have to suffer the burden of living in a world as we do that requires so much of our time to be spent on our jobs and building identities that bring us further from knowing our true selves and g-d we would all without a doubt want to achieve what this prayer has done for so many of the Ascetics. After finding out about this it made the Catholic clergy even more depraved a bunch to me. It certainly made it clear that the practice of Catholicism, as I was a part, was insufficient and would not bring spirituality or g-d in to my life in any purposeful way. It is funny that Catholics pray through the saints and they chose to focus on miracles rather than the life long efforts that they put in to practicing Ascetic lives. If we all strived to be such Christians there would be no need for the church and no money for the coffers. How many priests are confirmed saints is all I am asking?
[/quote]
So, you claim Eastern Orthodox, but you hate your Catholic brothers? The guys with the same faith as you? And, they are called mystics, and almost all of them that wrote talked about the need for the Church. Maybe you should read them again.
And, why do you condemn Catholics for focusing on the mysteries of Christ? So, if we just try to live Ascetic lives we’ll make it to heaven? Good people don’t make it to heaven, those saved by the Grace of the Lord go to Heaven. [/quote]
I do not hate anyone. I am not claiming any organized religion. I really think that the church is not necessary and as it stands is failing it members. I am sharing my experience and stating where the church fell short for me and how it failed to strenghthen my realationship with g-d and even made me believe it is a sham.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Good people don’t make it to heaven, those saved by the Grace of the Lord go to Heaven. [/quote]
You have any guarantee on how one gets to heaven? A scapular should be enough right?
edit:I am only joking about this. Don’t feel the need to address this meaningless part of my post as you keep choosing to do with all the other less meaningful parts of my posts. Feel free however to give me examples of how the church helps to develop ones relationship with the Lord and help get one in his Grace to be saved.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
You have any guarantee on how one gets to heaven? A scapular should be enough right?[/quote]
A scapular? What are you talking about?
Yes, I have a guarantee on HOW to get to Heaven. Die in the body of Christ which means no mortal sin on your soul. That requires Eucharist and Confession.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.
Yes, I have a guarantee on HOW to get to Heaven. Die in the body of Christ which means no mortal sin on your soul. That requires Eucharist and Confession.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
Sorry, I know that eucharist and confession can be made without conviction or belief. Mortal sins are following the ten comanadments correct? I am many years removed at this point forgive me.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. >>>[/quote]I DO. And so can you and so can he. That guarantee is the finished work of the Son of God who cannot fail. As long as you keep believing that anything you do commends or condemns you before God you will go on day in and day out wondering how it will all end up. How tragic Chris. You traded one bondage for another. You can be free and free indeed. That freedom will drive you into His arms and away from sin in ways you will never know while enslaved to all that ritual.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. >>>[/quote]I DO. And so can you and so can he. That guarantee is the finished work of the Son of God who cannot fail. As long as you keep believing that anything you do commends or condemns you before God you will go on day in and day out wondering how it will all end up. How tragic Chris. You traded one bondage for another. You can be free and free indeed. That freedom will drive you into His arms and away from sin in ways you will never know while enslaved to all that ritual.
[/quote]
As just an observant by-stander here, Trib, I agree with what you said with the obvious qualifier that we should be ever diligent over ourselves. But, what you are proposing would negate the ‘necessity’ of the catholic church, who thrives on the fear (of hell, etc) they constantly present to their flock in order to keep said flock dependent. Yes, it is quite sad.
Yes, I have a guarantee on HOW to get to Heaven. Die in the body of Christ which means no mortal sin on your soul. That requires Eucharist and Confession.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
Sorry, I know that eucharist and confession can be made without conviction or belief. Mortal sins are following the ten comanadments correct? I am many years removed at this point forgive me. [/quote]
Concerning mortal sins, in Orthodoxy there is only 1, the sin against the Holy Spirit which is rejection of forgiveness. Confession and Eucharist as well as other sacraments and prayer such as the Jesus prayer, and fasting help us never to forget in our hearts God’s forgiveness. We say the prayers of absolution at the funeral. We do not know exactly how God will deal with those outside the Church. We would say that they would be saved through the church. The reason for formal sacramental confession is not because God does not forgive without formal confession, but because formal confession heals us so that we can better combat temptation in the future.
Sacraments done without conviction do not do you any good, though they can harm you.
Yes, I have a guarantee on HOW to get to Heaven. Die in the body of Christ which means no mortal sin on your soul. That requires Eucharist and Confession.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
Sorry, I know that eucharist and confession can be made without conviction or belief. Mortal sins are following the ten comanadments correct? I am many years removed at this point forgive me. [/quote]
What do you mean they can be made without conviction or belief? That’s sacrilege, Paul warns us to discern the Eucharist. Mortal sin is that which is 1 a grave matter 2 you have full knowledge and 3 you have willful intent to go against G-d’s will.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
This is verbal diareha. [/quote]
Really? So you think the Bible is verbal diarrhea? The second statement is right from the Bible.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
This is verbal diareha. [/quote]
Really? So you think the Bible is verbal diarrhea? The second statement is right from the Bible.[/quote]
I do when they are directed as a response and lack meaning and do not give any explanation to the question. It felt like plagiarism/regurgitation. I would say I thought it lacked conviction, but I do not believe that to be true after seeing your dedication to replying to every issue or question brought to this forum.
Anyway, I cannot justify my beliefs or feelings simply with bible quotes, and I spent a good portion of the night reading through the pages here. I can say without a doubt that I am impressed with yours and many others command of verse. I think that you were given a stronger foundation for your faith than I and in many ways I am truly jealous of this. It says you are 21 yrs old in your profile, and I again am super jealous/impressed with both your conviction and steadfast adherence to the bible and doctrine provided by the church at our age, I am 28. It has been an inspiration to me. To what do you most attribute your faith, outside of the bible and church teachings? A strong family leader?
I am now questioning if maybe my lack of recall for verse could be compounding my doubts and will try and read through the New Testament in the coming weeks. I do not think it will bring me back to the RCC but perhaps it will help re-kindle the desire to seek out an organized religion to match my beliefs. I do identify a bit more with many of the Orthodox notions I have come across.
In my departure from organized religion I have sought reconciliation of beliefs from many different disciplines, philosophy, science, literature, other religions and have built a belief system that provides stability in justification of my beliefs, but it will always lack the cohesion and community aspect that I found greatest fault with and which causes my greatest doubts in the RCC. This is the aspect that I most long for and see offering the greatest value to the world. This lack of community in having my own belief system makes it an equally lonely venture, and requires that acceptance be a cornerstone of my beliefs. The great irony being I could have kept my RCC faith had I adopted this as a cornerstone while I was a practicing Catholic. The sad part is I had to journey away to accept and bring this notion in to my belief set. I am secretly a fascist when it comes to notions of organized religion and cannot understand why one would maintain a connection, if you agree that it is obvious that little connection existed amongst the congregation other than going through the ceremony. This almost seems base and vile to my understanding of what we are to be doing.
The cafeteria Catholics and the un-inspirational laity are in my view a visible symptom of a sickness that exists in the faith, which I believe stems from the lack of spiritual development being taught by the church on how to build ones relationship with G-d. Simply stated ceremony is not enough.
I am not sure if this is possible for you or others but give me an honest heart felt reply that does not involve bible verse. Our experiences are what give value to our beliefs and I would truly be interested in hearing other experiences of the faith or church and how it has help them in their journey towards Grace.
What do you mean they can be made without conviction or belief? That’s sacrilege, Paul warns us to discern the Eucharist. Mortal sin is that which is 1 a grave matter 2 you have full knowledge and 3 you have willful intent to go against G-d’s will.[/quote]
I agree that it is sacrilege, but you can walk in to any service and find members of the congregation sleeping through the service. I have never seen a priest address this, which is horrendous. The problem is that based on your definition of a mortal sin this behavior can exist and can be justified to an extent because they may not have willful intent to go against G-d’s will. They may not be spiritually mature enough to have willful intent due to lack of spiritual development. There is an age of accountability, but if accountability is never taught or learned then age is irrelevant.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
We do not know exactly how God will deal with those outside the Church. We would say that they would be saved through the church. The reason for formal sacramental confession is not because God does not forgive without formal confession, but because formal confession heals us so that we can better combat temptation in the future.
Sacraments done without conviction do not do you any good, though they can harm you.[/quote]
I truly believe this idea about those outside being save through the church, but I again am a little bit more for a hard line approach. I have heard this idea stated as We are saved as a community or condemned as a community. I believe this because I can see and feel it in the world around me, but I further understand it to mean that any moral failure is all of ours to carry, your actions effect everyone else. I am for creating as much personal and community responsibly as possible, as I think it is what gives organized religion meaning.
I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. Salvation and justification is a process in which day in and day out we pick up our crosses and suffer and persevere to the end working out our salvation with fear and trembling, all by the Grace of G-d.[/quote]
This is verbal diareha. [/quote]
Really? So you think the Bible is verbal diarrhea? The second statement is right from the Bible.[/quote]
I do when they are directed as a response and lack meaning and do not give any explanation to the question. It felt like plagiarism/regurgitation. I would say I thought it lacked conviction, but I do not believe that to be true after seeing your dedication to replying to every issue or question brought to this forum. [/quote]
Yes, it would seem so. I suppose if I was in you, I would 100% think the same thing. I picked up talking in ‘Gospel’ from an old pious nun who all she could talk about was Jesus.
I humbly appreciate your words. However, I cannot claim any of this as my own. It would be false and intellectually weak.
A quick bit about me. I came into the Church Easter Vigil 2010 (my anniversary will be coming up in a week or so). So, this is all new to me.
What do I attribute my faith to? No, I was not blessed to have such strong family members to bring me and to keep me in the body of the Lord. I was allowed to run a muck and stain the body of Christ. However, I did have family members who prayed to my spiritual mother Mary to bring me into her heart. So, I attribute it to the Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary, she pulled me out of the immoral cesspool and gave me to the Lord to do as he commands, as a good mother does. And only by the grace of G-d am I not like any other man. So, I can only be humble, because I know if it wasn’t for that grace I could be like the murders, the thieves, and the like.
Yes, the Orthodox are pious people, and such nice and holy people. I pray everyday with my local Greek Orthodox priest that reconciliation between the East and West should happen. That one day we can humble ourselves and become brothers in arms again.
I agree, there does seem to be a lack of community with those that go to Mass. Catholics have been of late to be ones to allow others to come to them, then to go to others. This is fine, and there is reason for it. However, connection with others is there, it just seems to be hidden. It isn’t broad casted as much as other congregations. There are a lot of social/charitable organizations within the Church, there is the Knights of Columbus, several fraternities like to KofC, there is bible studies, social groups, book clubs, &c.
In the United States it is a sad fact that Catholics have been throughout reserved in saying they are Catholic. It is not so in other countries, because Catholicism is usually the religion. Everyone is Catholic, and therefore lack of Catholic social groups is not a worry, because every group is basically Catholic. This can be found in certain areas of the United States though, such as Louisiana. Most social groups are Catholic in form.
[quote]
The cafeteria Catholics and the un-inspirational laity are in my view a visible symptom of a sickness that exists in the faith, which I believe stems from the lack of spiritual development being taught by the church on how to build ones relationship with G-d. Simply stated ceremony is not enough.[/quote]
Oh, I agree! I blame all faults of the world on the Bishops and Priests. It is their fault, they were given responsible and they did not challenge the faith of Catholics. They allowed lax preaching. However, I just realise that they are my brother and I have to pray for them, I cannot cast the first stone. And, I realize that they are heretic in such cases and tell them to have a nice day and I’ll keep them in my prayers.
[quote]
I am not sure if this is possible for you or others but give me an honest heart felt reply that does not involve bible verse. Our experiences are what give value to our beliefs and I would truly be interested in hearing other experiences of the faith or church and how it has help them in their journey towards Grace. [/quote]
There is a conversion within the Church. Truly, truly there is a conversion in the Church. If you know the 10 lepers in the Bible, well there is a convent in the desert of Arizona with five nuns all by themselves. They are the most pious ladies I have ever met, they take turns throughout the day to sit at the feet of Jesus and thank him for the rest of the people who do not thank the Lord. Just like the only leper that came back to Jesus to thank them, that is there duty in life is to thank Jesus, day in and day out, never ceasing.
To go to the 40 day vigil, where dozens of people would be outside Planned Parenthood and pray for the end of abortion for 24 hours a day for 40 days straight. It is amazing the conversion in the Church to the teaching and the faithfulness to the whole teaching. To see groups like FOCUS in which they go onto the moral cesspools of American universities and colleges and evangelize and bring people to the Lord doing amazing work in which they have sometimes doubled and even tripled the faithful.
As well, listening to the new priests, in which they actually teach their flock their faith everyday. That are not indifferent to the truth, and will not have any nonsense when it comes to their parish.
What do you mean they can be made without conviction or belief? That’s sacrilege, Paul warns us to discern the Eucharist. Mortal sin is that which is 1 a grave matter 2 you have full knowledge and 3 you have willful intent to go against G-d’s will.[/quote]
I agree that it is sacrilege, but you can walk in to any service and find members of the congregation sleeping through the service. I have never seen a priest address this, which is horrendous. The problem is that based on your definition of a mortal sin this behavior can exist and can be justified to an extent because they may not have willful intent to go against G-d’s will. They may not be spiritually mature enough to have willful intent due to lack of spiritual development. There is an age of accountability, but if accountability is never taught or learned then age is irrelevant.[/quote]
Yes, it is a tough subject, I have to go to class. So I’ll get back to this later.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
We do not know exactly how God will deal with those outside the Church. We would say that they would be saved through the church. The reason for formal sacramental confession is not because God does not forgive without formal confession, but because formal confession heals us so that we can better combat temptation in the future.
Sacraments done without conviction do not do you any good, though they can harm you.[/quote]
I truly believe this idea about those outside being save through the church, but I again am a little bit more for a hard line approach. I have heard this idea stated as We are saved as a community or condemned as a community. I believe this because I can see and feel it in the world around me, but I further understand it to mean that any moral failure is all of ours to carry, your actions effect everyone else. I am for creating as much personal and community responsibly as possible, as I think it is what gives organized religion meaning.[/quote]
I agree, that is the teaching of the Church and the Bible. Where there is one person there is the Church, and when I do something sinful it affects everyone else in the Church. And, when a Bishop or Priest does something sinful it affects everyone much more. It is like the military.
When a private is a trader and goes to the side of the enemy, damage is done. However, when one of the Colonels or Generals is a trader and goes to the side of the enemy, 100 fold damage can be done. That is why even though we are all priest, prophet, and king only ordained men can be authoritative priests and bishops. Because a certain formation has to be there, otherwise much damage can be done. And the root of the problem was the formation, if your basic training is bad your battle will be bad. The seminaries allowed heretical and untruthful things to be taught, Bishops allowed seminaries to pressure seminarians to deny the Truth for the untruth. That has changed, it has gotten better and will continue to get better.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:<<< I will try and read through the New Testament in the coming weeks. >>>[/quote]Please do. Ask God to guide you. I am absolutely serious. Speaking of open minds. Open yours to Him and go to His word. He is flawlessly faithful and cannot lie. He promises to answer the heart that seeks Him. Boy I can hear this already. No guys that is not works and it ain’t up to me if he ends up a Catholic. That’s God’s business. Mine is to simply testify.