What do you do with protestant miracles, or new age miracles or voodoo and santerÃ?Âa miracles. Or manifestations of the supernatural in many cases. There are examples of the supernatural from ungodly sources even in the bible. In Exodus 7 and 8 Pharaoh’s magicians were able mimic some the works that God performed though Moses for instance.
In Matthew 24:24 Jesus foretold of false christs and prophets who would show signs and wonders so great “so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9 tells us that “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,”… among others.
I believe in miracles. I believe in miracles for today. How do we know then who is who? By whether what they teach is according the scriptures or not, that’s how. The ministry of ongoing miracles, practically on demand sometimes, has not been seen since John died. I’m even assuming that Catholic miracles approach what they claim which is certainly not a given. Nether is it for alleged protestant miracles of which I also am convinced 99% are a proverbial load of bovine fecal matter.
Show me a pope who feeds five thousand with a few loaves and fishes… twice, heals a man born blind along with countless others, raises a couple of dead people, walks on water and commands the weather all while preaching simple faith once for all delivered to the saints and maybe we’ll have something.
Weeping statues, levitating saints, stigmata, visions of Mary and such, IF they happened at all, smack more of demonic deception than anything we find associated with Jesus or the apostles in the bible. I’m just being totally honest with you man.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< 60-When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61-But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62-Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63-It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64-But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65-And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66-After THIS many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
(John 6:60-66 ESV)
Indeed it is hard to listen when it doesn’t say what you want it to.[/quote]I know you’d never want to violently wrench scripture out of it’s context Pat OR refuse to listen unless it said what you wanted it to so I fixed that for ya. Emphasis mine. There was a cumulative effect here which, while including their misunderstanding of His “eating my flesh” statement, culminated and was finally completed in their learning that Jesus was teaching sovereign election. [/quote]
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< to the point that they put you on ignore. Because this is what you do. >>>[/quote]I have never been put on ignore for what you allege and I can prove it. Just say the word my friend. Did you miss the part where I said that I hold almost all alleged protestant miracles also to be crap? I’ll make it even clearer. Many of them are demonic deception too and just as goofy. Bottom line? Outside of a ministry of miracles as recorded in the new testament? Miracles, even real ones, prove nothing.
[quote]<<< Speaking of offense. This is my thread and as good a place as any to do this. I was myself offensive to the Lord and a poor witness of His character by my shameful public attacks on KingKai25 before allowing him the opportunity of so much as 10 seconds of conversation in my direction. I do hereby repent as promised and declare my premature estimation of this young man to have been among the wrongest in my life. This is one of the horrible sins of my past and I have no excuse. Aragorn recently rightly rebuked me for not taking these things up privately first. I should have.
We’ve talked extensively through PM’s and he’s forgiven me. I’m humbled and grateful. To God be the glory. >>>[/quote]
You don’t know me better than these accusations you’re making by now? I picked from a Catholic perspective, celebrated well known alleged miracles using utterly non sensational language. I said nothing about faces in tortillas. The ones I cited have been confirmed by the church. Ya know what I think? I think you guys liked it better when I WAS snidely and condescendingly and viciously spitting all over your church. You weren’t nearly as angry with me then.(except Pat) Go back and look at both my language and your responses a year ago. I’m learning lessons here.
You’re one of the guys here I’ve gotten closer to than most others as you know. I have no problem arguing or debating with you. Even with some heat. I will not however countenance falsehood directed at me OR YOU GUYS. Did you also miss the part where I defended Chris’s character… again? You are right this minute learning about the PM’s where I defended yours to someone who doesn’t know you like I do. Yes I did. Please allow all horn locking to at least be over things that truly exist. We can do that can’t we?
You are coloring your recent reading of me. You are. Please look.
Weeping statues, levitating saints, stigmata, visions of Mary and such, IF they happened at all, smack more of demonic deception than anything we find associated with Jesus or the apostles in the bible. I’m just being totally honest with you man.[/quote]
Since you are being so “honest,” T, I’ll pay you the respect of being honest, too.
While I do not have any problem with the things you’ve stated above, we have all sorts of miracles that are dead on with the “nice” ones you described above. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them.
Once again, you just picked a number of things out of context and then framed them to look creepy, in the same manner that journalists will seize on an old Mexican woman finding an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in a burned tortilla. They ignore the countless truly unexplainable accounts of healing and, yes, feeding massive amounts of people with nearly nothing and, yes, people who were born without the optical equipment to see even being completely cured of blindness. But the second the kind of miracle pops up that they can seize upon and twist to their agenda, the hyenas all come out, snapping and howling and cackling, “Look at the Catholics! Look what weirdos these people are! See what kind of craziness they believe!” All in the name of “honest” journalism.
You are honestly disappointing me, Tirib. I was hoping you were better than this. I wanted to believe it. But over and over and over again, you come with the cheap shots against the Catholic Church, and yes, we Catholics do take it personally.
Your system starts to look less and less impressive to me the more I see you act like every other insecure, mean, jealous, Catholic HATING Protestant I have ever met. Oh yes you do. The cheap shot about priests giving communion to grave sinners the other day. Your sudden public and very transparent embracing of King Kai as one of your own, so to speak, the minute he posts what appears to be a mean, possibly intentionally offensive post to Chris about Catholics. And now this, trying to paint us and our miracles as weird demonic possession.
I must ask, where do you get off, dude?
Don’t worry, I’m not personally offended by you. I still consider you my friend. But you need to hear this. Because this is exactly why you piss off so many people on this board, so many Catholics specifically, to the point that they put you on ignore. Because this is what you do.
I’m just being totally honest with you man.
[/quote]
Hence, why he’s on permanent ignore. He uses the word to glorify himself and to pit his righteousness against anybody else’s. Since I have nothing good to say, I say nothing. I am not disappointed, this self glorifying gospel of hate is, who he is. He knows the words but are clueless to their meaning, intent and purpose.
Even Makavali said he would do less damage to the scriptures if he wiped his ass with them, I agree wholeheartedly.
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.”
(Matthew 7:6 ESV)
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
In my opinion, the turn to Catholicism for the answer to the desire for doctrinal certainty is an inherently cowardly move.[/quote]
Are you saying that I’m a coward?
PS. I did not “read” myself into the Church. Faith is believing something on the word of a witness, not reasoning.
PPS. Studying 2000 years of miracles through the Saints by God in the Catholic Church is a major factor. However, my eye witness of several miracles is what gave me faith on top of the proclamation of the Jesus and the Gospel by a dear friend of mine.
edit: PS. & PPS.[/quote]
This got ugly fast…
Before going any further in this extremely important discussion (and since I have to leave to pick up my wife in a few minutes), I just want to clarify a few things.
Cortes called me out (and so did Tirib, guys) about my “mean, possibly intentionally offensive post to Chris about Catholics” (Cortes). First of all, my statement about the “inherently cowardly move” was not an accusation against Catholics in general. I am sorry if it came off that way. Contextually, my focus was extremely narrow - I was talking about Protestants who, frustrated with the diversity of interpretations of the same material within Protestant circles, join the Catholic church IN ORDER TO find certainty. I asked Chris in that post if the desire for certainty (i.e., to escape the reality of an often ambiguous Bible) is what lead him to Catholicism. THAT (and that alone) would be, in my opinion, a cowardly reason for becoming a Catholic. I stand by that statement. For those who are simply more convinced by Catholic readings of Scripture and portrayals of the church fathers, I hold a deep respect, regardless of the fact that I remain unconvinced. And Chris (I believe) has implied in this post that the desire for certainty was not his reason. Furthermore, I do believe that there is meaningful distinction between saying that someone did something cowardly or evil or good and characterizing that person in general as cowardly or evil or good.
My post was not intended to be mean. I consider myself a seeker of truth; I have supplied my reasons from Day 1 as to why I do not believe that Catholic church holds the truth (truth being understood in terms of propositional content in this context). I have said several times before exactly what I said in my previous post - the Catholic church’s claims to interpretive authority do not convince me because its leaders have historically shown little interest in developing historical sensitivity or awareness of its own variegated beginnings. There are notable bright spots (John Henry Newman being one) who were wiling to recognize the genuine historical, cultural, and sociological (i.e., contingent) factors that contributed to the development of church doctrines and practices, and even he wouldn’t go far enough.
And all this talk of miracles is worth discussing, but I am out of time. For now I’ll say that I don’t deny that the Spirit is at work powerfully in the Catholic church or among Protestant denominations (at a conference last week, I saw a girl with a silicone eye scream in joy as, after prayer, she was able to SEE THROUGH IT). There was a lot more to my statement, however, about “credentials”…
Witnessing the risen Christ is a further prerequisite of apostolic authority. Nevertheless, even then I ask that the one who works wonders in an apostolic fashion and witnessed the risen Christ “show me logically, with some degree of historical sensitivity, how their beliefs actually harmonize with the words of Paul and Peter in the New Testament.” I’m not denying that God has and continues to work wonders in your midst, brothers - I am saying that such miracles are not SUFFICIENT to render your leaders infallible interpreters of Scripture (just as I don’t buy the widespread Protestant nonsense about needing only my Bible and the Holy Spirit to interpret rightly).
And I cannot disagree with you more, BC, on your definition of faith. Yes, testimony by its nature must be taken on faith (see Bauckham’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses) IN MATTERS WHERE THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE AND THE WITNESS IS TRUSTWORTHY. But that is the critical issue - based on the historical insensitivity to even its own roots that I SEE in the Catholic church, I question the legitimacy of the church’s witness to its own authority. There is other evidence to the contrary. And besides, by your definition, any witness is as legitimate as any other, so I can trust the pagan medicine man as much as I trust a bishop? That doesn’t make sense to me.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< to the point that they put you on ignore. Because this is what you do. >>>[/quote]I have never been put on ignore for what you allege and I can prove it. Just say the word my friend. Did you miss the part where I said that I hold almost all alleged protestant miracles also to be crap? I’ll make it even clearer. Many of them are demonic deception too and just as goofy. Bottom line? Outside of a ministry of miracles as recorded in the new testament? Miracles, even real ones, prove nothing.
[quote]<<< Speaking of offense. This is my thread and as good a place as any to do this. I was myself offensive to the Lord and a poor witness of His character by my shameful public attacks on KingKai25 before allowing him the opportunity of so much as 10 seconds of conversation in my direction. I do hereby repent as promised and declare my premature estimation of this young man to have been among the wrongest in my life. This is one of the horrible sins of my past and I have no excuse. Aragorn recently rightly rebuked me for not taking these things up privately first. I should have.
We’ve talked extensively through PM’s and he’s forgiven me. I’m humbled and grateful. To God be the glory. >>>[/quote]
You don’t know me better than these accusations you’re making by now? I picked from a Catholic perspective, celebrated well known alleged miracles using utterly non sensational language. I said nothing about faces in tortillas. The ones I cited have been confirmed by the church. Ya know what I think? I think you guys liked it better when I WAS snidely and condescendingly and viciously spitting all over your church. You weren’t nearly as angry with me then.(except Pat) Go back and look at both my language and your responses a year ago. I’m learning lessons here.
You’re one of the guys here I’ve gotten closer to than most others as you know. I have no problem arguing or debating with you. Even with some heat. I will not however countenance falsehood directed at me OR YOU GUYS. Did you also miss the part where I defended Chris’s character… again? You are right this minute learning about the PM’s where I defended yours to someone who doesn’t know you like I do. Yes I did. Please allow all horn locking to at least be over things that truly exist. We can do that can’t we?
You are coloring your recent reading of me. You are. Please look.
[/quote]
Religion is the greatest troll job ever perpetrated on humanity. But the game is up – people around the world are waking up to the trickery.
Someday, we will have an ethics based purely on mathematics, logically derived from the axiom: Man Thinks Using Reason.
From that axiom, all else will follow.
(Two thousand years from now, the people reading about Christianity will look at it like we look at people worshipping Ba
al and throwing our first borns into a fire pit.)
Any day now. I can see Headhunter. On his face soaking the floor, begging Christ Jesus his God to cleanse him of his desperate, blasphemous and futile attempts at escaping his creator. The Lord will probably put you next to me in the choirs of heaven. Ephrem on the other side. Wooo Hooo!!! How glorious that would be!!!
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Any day now. I can see Headhunter. On his face soaking the floor, begging Christ Jesus his God to cleanse him of his desperate, blasphemous and futile attempts at escaping his creator. The Lord will probably put you next to me in the choirs of heaven. Ephrem on the other side. Wooo Hooo!!! How glorious that would be!!! [/quote]
I read that and felt like I was in the 12th century, in some Roman pesthole, terrified that a ghost was going to come and steal my last bowl of soup.
All because……I took the Lord’s name in vain!!!
But seriously…do people really and truly believe this stuff? Or are you all trolling?
So God decides that humanity (His creation) is evil so He decides to be re-born as His own Son and let the humans torture Him to death, while they laugh and have a picnic on the grass?
“From the rites of the jungle witch-doctors, which distorted reality into grotesque absurdities, stunted the minds of their victims and kept them in terror of the supernatural for stagnant stretches of centuriesâ??to the supernatural doctrines of the Middle Ages, which kept men huddling on the mud floors of their hovels, in terror that the devil might steal the soup they had worked eighteen hours to earnâ??to the seedy little smiling professor who assures you that your brain has no capacity to think, that you have no means of perception and must blindly obey the omnipotent will of that supernatural force: Societyâ??all of it is the same performance for the same and only purpose: to reduce you to the kind of pulp that has surrendered the validity of its consciousness. But it cannot be done to you without your consent. If you permit it to be done, you deserve it.” John Galt
I know exactly what you will show and say occurred.
What you can show occurred will be subject to interpretation.
What you can say, I’ll bet dollars to donuts will be different than what either Pat or Sloth have to say about what happened.
[quote]Just say the word my friend. Did you miss the part where I said that I hold almost all alleged protestant miracles also to be crap? I’ll make it even clearer. Many of them are demonic deception too and just as goofy. Bottom line? Outside of a ministry of miracles as recorded in the new testament? Miracles, even real ones, prove nothing.
[quote]<<< Speaking of offense. This is my thread and as good a place as any to do this. I was myself offensive to the Lord and a poor witness of His character by my shameful public attacks on KingKai25 before allowing him the opportunity of so much as 10 seconds of conversation in my direction. I do hereby repent as promised and declare my premature estimation of this young man to have been among the wrongest in my life. This is one of the horrible sins of my past and I have no excuse. Aragorn recently rightly rebuked me for not taking these things up privately first. I should have.
We’ve talked extensively through PM’s and he’s forgiven me. I’m humbled and grateful. To God be the glory. >>>[/quote]
You don’t know me better than these accusations you’re making by now? I picked from a Catholic perspective, celebrated well known alleged miracles using utterly non sensational language. I said nothing about faces in tortillas. The ones I cited have been confirmed by the church. Ya know what I think? I think you guys liked it better when I WAS snidely and condescendingly and viciously spitting all over your church. You weren’t nearly as angry with me then.(except Pat) Go back and look at both my language and your responses a year ago. I’m learning lessons here.
You’re one of the guys here I’ve gotten closer to than most others as you know. I have no problem arguing or debating with you. Even with some heat. I will not however countenance falsehood directed at me OR YOU GUYS. Did you also miss the part where I defended Chris’s character… again? You are right this minute learning about the PM’s where I defended yours to someone who doesn’t know you like I do. Yes I did. Please allow all horn locking to at least be over things that truly exist. We can do that can’t we?
You are coloring your recent reading of me. You are. Please look.
[/quote]
You are missing the point.
We are involved in a religious discussion. If, within the confines of that discussion. particularly a public one, I suddenly tell you that the fact of the matter is that your church is separated from Christ and has been nothing more than a tool of the Devil since the time of the schism; that your pastor is a serpent with a sly tongue, coaxing you and countless hapless others directly through the gates of Hell; and that, outside of perhaps some (highly unlikely) miracle only possible though the infinite, incomprehensible grace of God, I cannot see any way for Protestants, particularly Calvinists, to ever reach heaven; it doesn’t matter how bloody nice I sound when I say it to you.
You’ve been told this before. I’ve bitten my tongue a bunch of times in the interest of remaining civil. This is not coming from out of nowhere.
You really don’t see it, I think. But there truly can’t be more than two possibilities. Either you MUST be seriously unaware as to how your posts come off to the rest of us, or you really ARE as haughtily sanctimonious as you sometimes sound. I do hope it is just the former.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< What you can say, I’ll bet dollars to donuts will be different than what either Pat or Sloth have to say about what happened. >>>[/quote]Pat was a reprehensible lying profane human attack dog on me no matter how civil I was. He called me “stupid, dishonest, insane, Hitler, Manson, sick and demented”. He even posted a picture of Charles Manson comparing me to him BECAUSE OF MY THEOLOGY. He put me on ignore when I pushed His face into one of his own falsehoods and everybody saw it. Go here http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/why_did_god_create_satan_part_2_1;jsessionid=AD349DFEE5F3B5573AFC0EB934C07876-mcd01.hydra?id=4767556&pageNo=2 AND INTERPRET AWAY.
Sloth put me on ignore after HE posted a link to a wiki page Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia documenting that the majority of early Americans would have found EVERY LAST THING I believe down to the minute details absolutely mainstream and was in the majors the declared faith of the vast majority (44 of 55) of the delegates to the first constitutional convention. A few weeks later, I put him in remembrance of his doing so. To which he responded:[quote]<<< Newsflash, there’s no more spiritually dead faith in this country than your beloved Calvinistic-Puritan-whatchamadoodle. Oh yes, Tirib, ‘your folks’ certainly were the face of early America, for the most part. But, look at their descendents now. Look at those folks’ country now. Eviscerated. Hollowed out. Their sons and daughters secularists. Where still religious, splintered into a multitude of squabbling denominations who’ve apparently arrived at different understandings, via sola scripture. >>>[/quote]
He stuck his own pistol in his own mouth and put my finger on the trigger. I challenged him on it. I even used used Push’s Yosemite Sam image that he (Push) always tried to insult me with. I upheld my respect for his intelligence and refused to call him a coward and called him friend in CAPITOL letters.
That was 02-10-2012, 10:00 AM http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/forcing_catholics_to_support_birth_control;jsessionid=9B3E639AE3BEDCE3391881C3489CC774-mcd01.hydra?id=5052777&pageNo=7 I cornered him on the following page, same day, as he misrepresented my argument and tried to retreat under the pretense of my having become “a sandwich board type”. I told him he had the opportunity to discredit me then, once and for all and asked him to do so. I PMed him twice. He immediately deleted both. I started to wonder if I had given him too much credit all along, but said this instead:[quote]<<< this is the discussion I’m dyin to have with Sloth. Jist dyin. Not so I can beat up on him. I hold him in very high regard, no matter what he thinks. Always have, but he is wrong. Despite being an impressively capable and principled man or actually because of it, I think he is beginning to hear the crackling in his foundation.
I also think he put me on ignore after my last PM which I assure you people was heartfelt and affectionate. That seems to be the Catholic method when pinned. That broken religion sadly diminishes men that are by God’s grace much better than their beliefs will allow them to be. I don’t care how corny it sounds, I have actual pain in this. As I told him. He has become more to me than some words on a screen. Nonetheless. “Here I stand. I can do not other” [/quote] http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/forcing_catholics_to_support_birth_control?id=5052777&pageNo=10 He put me on ignore right then. He was my lone ally on those late night discussions on morality and family. He was my friend. That hurt me. I pray for him still. He ran away because being the very smart guy that he is, he previewed that discussion in his mind and KNEW he had already lost and it would further weaken his faith in his church which is what this is all about. Poo poo that away all you want. Until I see him gird up his loins like a frickin man and stop this cowardly (there I said it) ignore routine and finish that discussion I stand by my assessment. You and everybody else can reach their own.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< You really don’t see it, I think. But there truly can’t be more than two possibilities. Either you MUST be seriously unaware as to how your posts come off to the rest of us, or you really ARE as haughtily sanctimonious as you sometimes sound. I do hope it is just the former. [/quote]Or… OR… how my posts come off to you are your subjective spin despite my voluminous protestations to the contrary. I’ll try again. I hate your CHURCH. Hate it. I view it as wicked. I love YOU. I can do that. Sloth even said so before he finally started to feel the force of the case against Rome. You DO NOT get to tell me I can’t. Your church is a lie. A world class one of a kind deceiver… without peer. Did you think I ever stopped believing that because I stopped the sarcastic sneering abuse, which I admitted, especially to Chris was hurtful and wrong? Now. Show me I’m wrong about retreat being the Catholic method when pinned. I went over to the bad catholic blog and invited Marc and anybody else to come and join us. They won’t, but I did. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2011/07/because-catholics-are-dead.html
One last thing for now. Ya know why I haven’t answered Joab’s and by extension yours and Chris’s challenge about certainty and God’s knowledge? Because I haven’t found one yet and … hang on. I may never find one and may have to change my view. Maybe. I can do that too. I’ll you why. Because my allegiance and my faith is in God alone and His scriptures. I can change that if need be and it will not destroy my faith because my faith is not tied to A MONOLITHIC HUMAN ORGANIZATION. I will listen to and engage ANYBODY. I am afraid of NOBODY. Not one single person ever will be on ignore by me EVER. It’s childish and cowardly and you can tell them both I said so or quote this post for them.
If we fall out over this Cortes, it is on you. I will be your friend and hopefully brother no matter what you do. I will never run away and I will never be hostile. NEVER. You can call my church whatever you want. You can call my pastor whatever you want. I AM NOT that visible church though I am in communion with her. I will still love and even like you. It honestly does not affect me at all. Not one bit. YOUR Catholic (big C) inability to think that way does not translate into MY inability to speak that way. Can we have this most foundational of all debates without becoming enemies? As far as it depends upon me? I insist. How bout you?
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< What you can say, I’ll bet dollars to donuts will be different than what either Pat or Sloth have to say about what happened. >>>[/quote]Pat was a reprehensible lying profane human attack dog on me no matter how civil I was. He called me “stupid, dishonest, insane, Hitler, Manson, sick and demented”. He even posted a picture of Charles Manson comparing me to him BECAUSE OF MY THEOLOGY. He put me on ignore when I pushed His face into one of his own falsehoods and everybody saw it. Go here http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/why_did_god_create_satan_part_2_1;jsessionid=AD349DFEE5F3B5573AFC0EB934C07876-mcd01.hydra?id=4767556&pageNo=2 AND INTERPRET AWAY.
Sloth put me on ignore after HE posted a link to a wiki page Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia documenting that the majority of early Americans would have found EVERY LAST THING I believe down to the minute details absolutely mainstream and was in the majors the declared faith of the vast majority (44 of 55) of the delegates to the first constitutional convention. A few weeks later, I put him in remembrance of his doing so. To which he responded:[quote]<<< Newsflash, there’s no more spiritually dead faith in this country than your beloved Calvinistic-Puritan-whatchamadoodle. Oh yes, Tirib, ‘your folks’ certainly were the face of early America, for the most part. But, look at their descendents now. Look at those folks’ country now. Eviscerated. Hollowed out. Their sons and daughters secularists. Where still religious, splintered into a multitude of squabbling denominations who’ve apparently arrived at different understandings, via sola scripture. >>>[/quote]
He stuck his own pistol in his own mouth and put my finger on the trigger. I challenged him on it. I even used used Push’s Yosemite Sam image that he (Push) always tried to insult me with. I upheld my respect for his intelligence and refused to call him a coward and called him friend in CAPITOL letters.
That was 02-10-2012, 10:00 AM http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/forcing_catholics_to_support_birth_control;jsessionid=9B3E639AE3BEDCE3391881C3489CC774-mcd01.hydra?id=5052777&pageNo=7 I cornered him on the following page, same day, as he misrepresented my argument and tried to retreat under the pretense of my having become “a sandwich board type”. I told him he had the opportunity to discredit me then, once and for all and asked him to do so. I PMed him twice. He immediately deleted both. I started to wonder if I had given him too much credit all along, but said this instead:[quote]<<< this is the discussion I’m dyin to have with Sloth. Jist dyin. Not so I can beat up on him. I hold him in very high regard, no matter what he thinks. Always have, but he is wrong. Despite being an impressively capable and principled man or actually because of it, I think he is beginning to hear the crackling in his foundation.
I also think he put me on ignore after my last PM which I assure you people was heartfelt and affectionate. That seems to be the Catholic method when pinned. That broken religion sadly diminishes men that are by God’s grace much better than their beliefs will allow them to be. I don’t care how corny it sounds, I have actual pain in this. As I told him. He has become more to me than some words on a screen. Nonetheless. “Here I stand. I can do not other” [/quote] http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/forcing_catholics_to_support_birth_control?id=5052777&pageNo=10 He put me on ignore right then. He was my lone ally on those late night discussions on morality and family. He was my friend. That hurt me. I pray for him still. He ran away because being the very smart guy that he is, he previewed that discussion in his mind and KNEW he had already lost and it would further weaken his faith in his church which is what this is all about. Poo poo that away all you want. Until I see him gird up his loins like a frickin man and stop this cowardly (there I said it) ignore routine and finish that discussion I stand by my assessment. You and everybody else can reach their own.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< You really don’t see it, I think. But there truly can’t be more than two possibilities. Either you MUST be seriously unaware as to how your posts come off to the rest of us, or you really ARE as haughtily sanctimonious as you sometimes sound. I do hope it is just the former. [/quote]Or… OR… how my posts come off to you are your subjective spin despite my voluminous protestations to the contrary. I’ll try again. I hate your CHURCH. Hate it. I view it as wicked. I love YOU. I can do that. Sloth even said so before he finally started to feel the force of the case against Rome. You DO NOT get to tell me I can’t. Your church is a lie. A world class one of a kind deceiver… without peer. Did you think I ever stopped believing that because I stopped the sarcastic sneering abuse, which I admitted, especially to Chris was hurtful and wrong? Now. Show me I’m wrong about retreat being the Catholic method when pinned. I went over to the bad catholic blog and invited Marc and anybody else to come and join us. They won’t, but I did. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2011/07/because-catholics-are-dead.html
One last thing for now. Ya know why I haven’t answered Joab’s and by extension yours and Chris’s challenge about certainty and God’s knowledge? Because I haven’t found one yet and … hang on. I may never find one and may have to change my view. Maybe. I can do that too. I’ll you why. Because my allegiance and my faith is in God alone and His scriptures. I can change that if need be and it will not destroy my faith because my faith is not tied to A MONOLITHIC HUMAN ORGANIZATION. I will listen to and engage ANYBODY. I am afraid of NOBODY. Not one single person ever will be on ignore by me EVER. It’s childish and cowardly and you can tell them both I said so or quote this post for them.
If we fall out over this Cortes, it is on you. I will be your friend and hopefully brother no matter what you do. I will never run away and I will never be hostile. NEVER. You can call my church whatever you want. You can call my pastor whatever you want. I AM NOT that visible church though I am in communion with her. I will still love and even like you. It honestly does not affect me at all. Not one bit. YOUR Catholic (big C) inability to think that way does not translate into MY inability to speak that way. Can we have this most foundational of all debates without becoming enemies? As far as it depends upon me? I insist. How bout you?
I can change my view, too. Indeed, in our PM you appeared to believe that I would, one day. If I did, I would just leave the Catholic Church. You once did this yourself. My trust in the Church is based upon something other than blind devotion. And I do not believe I am alone by any stretch of the imagination. I do hope you understand that.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I can see it comin[/quote]
The only thing in this world that I worship is HUMAN ABILITY.
There is more truth and justice in a child mastering the multiplication tables than all your Holy Books and hossanas and whooping with snakes.
[/quote]
I don’t know what to call your views except… cute. I think that’s the best way to describe them. They are extremely cute, and you are totally entitled to them. But please take your pseudo-intellectual Objectivist nonsense elsewhere. Ayn Rand wrote a bunch of simplistic, neo-romantic garbage, and the only people convinced by her trash were high schoolers (or, as reading levels have dropped substantially in the last half-century, freshman-sophomore undergrads). Seriously, her unfounded humanistic propositions make serious philosophers laugh, so if you want to move humankind back to their appropriate position on the pedestal, start a new thread or something. Please.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
In my opinion, the turn to Catholicism for the answer to the desire for doctrinal certainty is an inherently cowardly move.[/quote]
Are you saying that I’m a coward?
PS. I did not “read” myself into the Church. Faith is believing something on the word of a witness, not reasoning.
PPS. Studying 2000 years of miracles through the Saints by God in the Catholic Church is a major factor. However, my eye witness of several miracles is what gave me faith on top of the proclamation of the Jesus and the Gospel by a dear friend of mine.
edit: PS. & PPS.[/quote]
This got ugly fast…
Before going any further in this extremely important discussion (and since I have to leave to pick up my wife in a few minutes), I just want to clarify a few things.
Cortes called me out (and so did Tirib, guys) about my “mean, possibly intentionally offensive post to Chris about Catholics” (Cortes). First of all, my statement about the “inherently cowardly move” was not an accusation against Catholics in general. I am sorry if it came off that way. Contextually, my focus was extremely narrow - I was talking about Protestants who, frustrated with the diversity of interpretations of the same material within Protestant circles, join the Catholic church IN ORDER TO find certainty. I asked Chris in that post if the desire for certainty (i.e., to escape the reality of an often ambiguous Bible) is what lead him to Catholicism. THAT (and that alone) would be, in my opinion, a cowardly reason for becoming a Catholic. I stand by that statement. For those who are simply more convinced by Catholic readings of Scripture and portrayals of the church fathers, I hold a deep respect, regardless of the fact that I remain unconvinced. And Chris (I believe) has implied in this post that the desire for certainty was not his reason. Furthermore, I do believe that there is meaningful distinction between saying that someone did something cowardly or evil or good and characterizing that person in general as cowardly or evil or good.
My post was not intended to be mean. I consider myself a seeker of truth; I have supplied my reasons from Day 1 as to why I do not believe that Catholic church holds the truth (truth being understood in terms of propositional content in this context). I have said several times before exactly what I said in my previous post - the Catholic church’s claims to interpretive authority do not convince me because its leaders have historically shown little interest in developing historical sensitivity or awareness of its own variegated beginnings. There are notable bright spots (John Henry Newman being one) who were wiling to recognize the genuine historical, cultural, and sociological (i.e., contingent) factors that contributed to the development of church doctrines and practices, and even he wouldn’t go far enough.
And all this talk of miracles is worth discussing, but I am out of time. For now I’ll say that I don’t deny that the Spirit is at work powerfully in the Catholic church or among Protestant denominations (at a conference last week, I saw a girl with a silicone eye scream in joy as, after prayer, she was able to SEE THROUGH IT). There was a lot more to my statement, however, about “credentials”…
Witnessing the risen Christ is a further prerequisite of apostolic authority. Nevertheless, even then I ask that the one who works wonders in an apostolic fashion and witnessed the risen Christ “show me logically, with some degree of historical sensitivity, how their beliefs actually harmonize with the words of Paul and Peter in the New Testament.” I’m not denying that God has and continues to work wonders in your midst, brothers - I am saying that such miracles are not SUFFICIENT to render your leaders infallible interpreters of Scripture (just as I don’t buy the widespread Protestant nonsense about needing only my Bible and the Holy Spirit to interpret rightly).
And I cannot disagree with you more, BC, on your definition of faith. Yes, testimony by its nature must be taken on faith (see Bauckham’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses) IN MATTERS WHERE THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE AND THE WITNESS IS TRUSTWORTHY. But that is the critical issue - based on the historical insensitivity to even its own roots that I SEE in the Catholic church, I question the legitimacy of the church’s witness to its own authority. There is other evidence to the contrary. And besides, by your definition, any witness is as legitimate as any other, so I can trust the pagan medicine man as much as I trust a bishop? That doesn’t make sense to me.
More later.[/quote]
Well KingKai, you know of all people I love and respect you greatly. There is no way to put a spin on the word ‘cowardly’ where it is not absolutely purely offensive, no matter how narrow the meaning. There are better word choices in civil discourse that get the meaning across with out being demeaning.
The Catholic Church doesn’t claim ‘doctrinal certainty’, because nobody can claim such a thing. If we had it, then there would never be a need to adjust it’s understanding. The magisterium is greatly misunderstood, like many things, in the church. The magisterium does provide interpretation, but personal study is encouraged. The church has people dedicated full time to pouring over and reviewing scripture. This is to keep the doctrine in line with the scriptures and not the other way around. What is not claimed is a perfect understanding of God’s mind. Nobody is doing that. The point of having the authority, isn’t to squelch personal scriptural interpretation, it to prevent fool hearty heretical interpretation for selfish gain.
I expect the use of the word ‘cowardly’ and some such nonsense to come from, immature half-wits like Chen or tirib, where the lack of doctrinal certainty and the desire for aggrandizement above edification leads to derogatory, inflammatory, selective negative discourse. I hold you to a higher standard because I know for a fact you know better, way better.
And quite frankly, I don’t mean to speak for Brother Chris, but I am betting above all his draw to the Church, wasn’t doctrinal certainty, but the Eucharist. That relationship is hard to understand until you live it… Then you understand.
You do realize, I can be extremely mean about Protestantism? I don’t and I am not because of people like yourself. I hold my tongue for you guys. Because I do realize, you are my brothers and not my enemies. That you speak for Christ makes you for me not against me. That doesn’t mean I can’t find grave errors if I want to. It means that life in Christ is above that crap. Nobody has it totally right.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I can see it comin[/quote]
The only thing in this world that I worship is HUMAN ABILITY.
There is more truth and justice in a child mastering the multiplication tables than all your Holy Books and hossanas and whooping with snakes.
[/quote]
I don’t know what to call your views except… cute. I think that’s the best way to describe them. They are extremely cute, and you are totally entitled to them. But please take your pseudo-intellectual Objectivist nonsense elsewhere. Ayn Rand wrote a bunch of simplistic, neo-romantic garbage, and the only people convinced by her trash were high schoolers (or, as reading levels have dropped substantially in the last half-century, freshman-sophomore undergrads). Seriously, her unfounded humanistic propositions make serious philosophers laugh, so if you want to move humankind back to their appropriate position on the pedestal, start a new thread or something. Please.[/quote]
(1) If you can disprove a single one of her ideas, I shall hear such refutation gladly.
(2) You believe in fairy tales and laugh at a rational philosopher…irony = delicious.
(3) Faith is not even in the same ballpark with ANY philosopher, even demented ones like Kant or Schopenhauer. At least they do TRY to think and not engage in blind worship.
I know you can’t see this because you have me on ignore Pat LOL!!! Whatever you do, never stop talkin LOL!! Your are priceless man. LOL!! I’ll say it again. I actually sincerely miss you.
