[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites. Faith is the denial of your mind and is therefore a death wish. Reason is using your abilities to the utmost for clearcut concept formation. Reason is a Life Wish.[/quote]
Until you die of course.[/quote]
All men die.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Does the Catholic church believe that Adam and Eve were literal historic individual people created by the hand of God Himself. Literal. A man, Adam, a woman Eve, jist like the critters runnin around the earth today? Real people. Individual people. First ones ever. Note that I did not ask you how old the earth was.
YAY OR NAY? Surely my mother has THE definitive unequivocal answer to this foundationally vital question. Surely my mother KNOWS, beyond a shadow of any possible doubt where I came from. If not? She ain’t my mother.[/quote]
Yes. Real persons. CCC 390. [/quote]How bout the rest of what I asked?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m not seeing it, but what other questions.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. 
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.” -Martin Luther
.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
[/quote]
Actually faith does not teach us to believe in things that aren’t real. Being dumb does.
Yes, see. Point made.
We’ll go with someone a little older: Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church says: IN faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.
In faith, however, rather than the intellect directing the will, the will directs the intellect. The will, choosing to follow the direction of another authority, moves the intellect to accept something as true even though the mind does not yet see it to be true. This is not to say that the mind is forced to accept something it sees to be false. The intellect accepts something to be true that surpasses, not contradicts, its power to know. As such, we can say faith is a virtue of the intellect.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites. Faith is the denial of your mind and is therefore a death wish. Reason is using your abilities to the utmost for clearcut concept formation. Reason is a Life Wish.[/quote]
Until you die of course.[/quote]
All men die.
[/quote]
Yes, so true. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb 9:27 KJV)
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
[/quote]
Actually faith does not teach us to believe in things that aren’t real. Being dumb does.[/quote]
Okay, I’ll clarify. Faith teaches us to believe in things we have no proof of; such as god, angels, etc.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.” -Martin Luther[/quote]
Yes, see. Point made.
We’ll go with someone a little older: Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church says: IN faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.
In faith, however, rather than the intellect directing the will, the will directs the intellect. The will, choosing to follow the direction of another authority, moves the intellect to accept something as true even though the mind does not yet see it to be true. This is not to say that the mind is forced to accept something it sees to be false. The intellect accepts something to be true that surpasses, not contradicts, its power to know. As such, we can say faith is a virtue of the intellect. [/quote]
That’s just a long winded way of saying what I said; faith teaches us to believe in thing that we have no proof of. Church it up however you want, but that’s the point of it.
However, speaking of a believers faith, why is it that so many believers feel the need to justify their faith? What I mean is, if someone believes in their heart what their religion teaches them, and has a strong faith, then why give a shit about atheistic ramblings then? Quite often it seems as though a believers faith isn’t good enough is what I’m saying. Penn Gillette says this as well; if he’s having a discussion with a believer, and the believer states that he/she believes simply because they choose to based on faith, then the discussion is at best a 50/50 at that point. The problem comes in when believers try to claim some sort of “proof” of god, when in reality, all a believer should need is their faith.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites. Faith is the denial of your mind and is therefore a death wish. Reason is using your abilities to the utmost for clearcut concept formation. Reason is a Life Wish.[/quote]
Until you die of course.[/quote]
All men die.
[/quote]
Yes, so true. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb 9:27 KJV)
[/quote]
In all seriousness, Mr. Chen; your scripture holds no meaning for me. I have no reason to believe that there is some sort of god figure who will be holding judgment for anyone post death.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
[/quote]
Actually faith does not teach us to believe in things that aren’t real. Being dumb does.[/quote]
Okay, I’ll clarify. Faith teaches us to believe in things we have no proof of; such as god, angels, etc.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.” -Martin Luther[/quote]
Yes, see. Point made.
We’ll go with someone a little older: Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church says: IN faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.
In faith, however, rather than the intellect directing the will, the will directs the intellect. The will, choosing to follow the direction of another authority, moves the intellect to accept something as true even though the mind does not yet see it to be true. This is not to say that the mind is forced to accept something it sees to be false. The intellect accepts something to be true that surpasses, not contradicts, its power to know. As such, we can say faith is a virtue of the intellect. [/quote]
That’s just a long winded way of saying what I said; faith teaches us to believe in thing that we have no proof of. Church it up however you want, but that’s the point of it.
However, speaking of a believers faith, why is it that so many believers feel the need to justify their faith? What I mean is, if someone believes in their heart what their religion teaches them, and has a strong faith, then why give a shit about atheistic ramblings then? Quite often it seems as though a believers faith isn’t good enough is what I’m saying. Penn Gillette says this as well; if he’s having a discussion with a believer, and the believer states that he/she believes simply because they choose to based on faith, then the discussion is at best a 50/50 at that point. The problem comes in when believers try to claim some sort of “proof” of god, when in reality, all a believer should need is their faith.
[/quote]
Penn makes this point in one one of his “Bullshit!” episodes, found here.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
IN faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.[/quote]
Very well put.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites. Faith is the denial of your mind and is therefore a death wish. Reason is using your abilities to the utmost for clearcut concept formation. Reason is a Life Wish.[/quote]
Until you die of course.[/quote]
All men die.
[/quote]
Yes, so true. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb 9:27 KJV)
[/quote]
In all seriousness, Mr. Chen; your scripture holds no meaning for me. I have no reason to believe that there is some sort of god figure who will be holding judgment for anyone post death.[/quote]
I know you don’t agree with the bible, I was just showing the bible agrees with you. The 2nd half of the verse is just a bonus. You may ignore it if you choose. ;-}
[quote]bigflamer wrote:[/quote]Kant was not a Christian and hence did not understand that his reason could not actually begin to function properly until the faith which is itself the gift of the true and living God had made Him alive together with Christ Jesus in heavenly places. Van Til appropriately dismantled Kant.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Does the Catholic church believe that Adam and Eve were literal historic individual people created by the hand of God Himself. Literal. A man, Adam, a woman Eve, jist like the critters runnin around the earth today? Real people. Individual people. First ones ever. Note that I did not ask you how old the earth was.
YAY OR NAY? Surely my mother has THE definitive unequivocal answer to this foundationally vital question. Surely my mother KNOWS, beyond a shadow of any possible doubt where I came from. If not? She ain’t my mother.[/quote]
Yes. Real persons. CCC 390. [/quote]How bout the rest of what I asked?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m not seeing it, but what other questions.[/quote]Were they create by the hand of God Himself like I asked? How bout their bodies?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
[/quote]
Actually faith does not teach us to believe in things that aren’t real. Being dumb does.[/quote]
Okay, I’ll clarify. Faith teaches us to believe in things we have no proof of; such as god, angels, etc.[/quote]
Maybe…but there are proofs of god, but kind of…yes.
[quote]That’s just a long winded way of saying what I said; faith teaches us to believe in thing that we have no proof of. Church it up however you want, but that’s the point of it.
However, speaking of a believers faith, why is it that so many believers feel the need to justify their faith? What I mean is, if someone believes in their heart what their religion teaches them, and has a strong faith, then why give a shit about atheistic ramblings then? Quite often it seems as though a believers faith isn’t good enough is what I’m saying. Penn Gillette says this as well; if he’s having a discussion with a believer, and the believer states that he/she believes simply because they choose to based on faith, then the discussion is at best a 50/50 at that point. The problem comes in when believers try to claim some sort of “proof” of god, when in reality, all a believer should need is their faith.
[/quote]
The big reason why I debate atheists is because as a catholic christian I am supposed to be prepared to give a reason for the hope I have.
Now in particular, there are two reasons I debate atheists in their ramblings (none has to do with justifying my faith):
- Iron sharpens Iron
- Evangelism
In other words, as a catholic christian I love truth. That is what I perpetually search for, if I do not follow truth then I’m just wrong and I’m doing things in vain.
So, when I debate an atheist, it helps me do two things: sharpen my arguments and search for contradictions in what I believe. If I have contradictions then something I believe is not true, since truth cannot contradict truth… I need to figure out of it is a contradiction, misunderstanding, or paradox. In reference to the second reason, I do not much evangelize when I debate atheists, except in how I act in debate I suppose.
However, the second follows the first. The more I sharpen my arguments and remove contradictions, the more clear and organized my arguments are and the more likely of conversion.
Has nothing to do with justification, I already accept the authority of the Church and her Magisterium. I do not get upset when debating my faith, I vary well can knock the dust off my flippy flops and move on if no one accepts what I have to give.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites. Faith is the denial of your mind and is therefore a death wish. Reason is using your abilities to the utmost for clearcut concept formation. Reason is a Life Wish.[/quote]
Until you die of course.[/quote]
I wish I could make up definitions and then say, “Gotcha! I WIN!”
IN faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Does the Catholic church believe that Adam and Eve were literal historic individual people created by the hand of God Himself. Literal. A man, Adam, a woman Eve, jist like the critters runnin around the earth today? Real people. Individual people. First ones ever. Note that I did not ask you how old the earth was.
YAY OR NAY? Surely my mother has THE definitive unequivocal answer to this foundationally vital question. Surely my mother KNOWS, beyond a shadow of any possible doubt where I came from. If not? She ain’t my mother.[/quote]
Yes. Real persons. CCC 390. [/quote]How bout the rest of what I asked?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m not seeing it, but what other questions.[/quote]Were they create by the hand of God Himself like I asked? How bout their bodies?
[/quote]
God doesn’t have hands, but yes. God created all.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Does the Catholic church believe that Adam and Eve were literal historic individual people created by the hand of God Himself. Literal. A man, Adam, a woman Eve, jist like the critters runnin around the earth today? Real people. Individual people. First ones ever. Note that I did not ask you how old the earth was.
YAY OR NAY? Surely my mother has THE definitive unequivocal answer to this foundationally vital question. Surely my mother KNOWS, beyond a shadow of any possible doubt where I came from. If not? She ain’t my mother.[/quote]
Yes. Real persons. CCC 390. [/quote]How bout the rest of what I asked?
[/quote]
Maybe I’m not seeing it, but what other questions.[/quote]Were they create by the hand of God Himself like I asked? How bout their bodies?
[/quote]
John 6:53-66 (NIV)
53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Faith and Reason are opposites.[/quote]
BINGO!
[/quote]
Opposites maybe, but not mutually exclusive or opposed. :)[/quote]
Faith teaches us to believe in things that aren’t real; no evidence required for faith. For me, belief requires some level of evidence.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.” -Martin Luther[/quote]
This is Catholic QA, not the True Religion or Epistemology forum. Let’s try to get back to questions specifically related to Catholic theology and praxis.