[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Well you call yourself Roman Catholic in these 4 official documents:
[/quote]
I am neither Roman nor have I been to Rome. I usually don’t even go to a Latin Church.
You’re either a Greek Catholic (I suppose you have 22 names to choose from here) or a Latin Catholic. I don’t call you Denver Orthodox. Both Orthodox and Catholics get their names from the language, not what city they reside in.
Roman Catholic Church has become popular, but it has not been used as a formal and proper name. Roman was added by protestants during the reformation to block the universality of the word Catholic in the Catholic Church’s name. Faithful Catholics didn’t come up with that, however, they have followed it at times.[/quote]
Just so you understand, the 22 “Eastern Catholic” groups listed on that page are actually not Orthodox. They are Eastern rite churches that are not considered to be in schism with Rome. They were at one time more commonly called Uniates. For example, the “Greek Catholic” exarchate is actually an Eastern rite group of diocese with a Patriarch directly under the Pope and who is not in Schism with Rome. These groups were considered to be a way of bridging the Catholic groups which are in full communion with Rome TO the Orthodox Churches which Rome considers to be part of Christ’s body, and not heretical, but schismatic or “structural” or “heirarchically” but not fundamentally theologically separated. [/quote]
I never said they were Orthodox, I was trying to point out that I am EASTERN CATHOLIC and not from Rome.[/quote]
OK I understand. We use the term Catholic to describe ourselves as well, and also I thought you were equivocating that a western rite Catholic living in America who has never been to Rome is not a “Roman” Catholic.
At any rate, I have no problem calling you and the entirety of those in full Communion with the Pope “Catholic”, and myself Orthodox. [/quote]
Don’t worry, I consider everyone that is baptized to be in the same Church. They just may not actually attend that Church.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Praying to saints to intercede on our behalf is not a Bible teaching. Nowhere in the inspired canon can this practice be found. Catholics add the Apocrypha to their Bible and use a passage in 2 Maccabees to support the belief of intercession by saints which is why this is exclusively a Catholic teaching. The books in the Apocrypha are not inspired by God. God is the only one in the Bible called the “Hearer of Prayer.” Paul said at Philippians 4:6: "In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God. So no matter what it is we pray for it should be directed to God only.
[/quote]
That is an interesting topic, I am sure you know scripture better than me. Can you show me why praying to the Saints is wrong?
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Praying to saints to intercede on our behalf is not a Bible teaching. Nowhere in the inspired canon can this practice be found. Catholics add the Apocrypha to their Bible and use a passage in 2 Maccabees to support the belief of intercession by saints which is why this is exclusively a Catholic teaching. The books in the Apocrypha are not inspired by God. God is the only one in the Bible called the “Hearer of Prayer.” Paul said at Philippians 4:6: "In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God. So no matter what it is we pray for it should be directed to God only.
[/quote]
That is an interesting topic, I am sure you know scripture better than me. Can you show me why praying to the Saints is wrong?
[/quote]
Sure. There’s several scriptures in the Bible that state who should be prayed to and who’s the only one that can intercede between man and God.
First, at Matthew 6:9 Jesus taught in his model prayer that prayers should be directed to his father only when he said: “You must pray, then, this way: ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.’”
Then Jesus clearly states at John 14:6 that the only way to get to his father is through him. These verses state:
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Next, there are a number of scriptures where Paul stresses that the only way to approach God is through Jesus only.
1 Timothy 2:5 states: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”
Romans 8:34 states: “Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”
Hebrew 7:25 states: “He is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.”
The above scriptures make it clear that God is the only one we should pray to and the only way to get to God is through his son Jesus Christ only; not saints.
Also, praying is a form of worship and the Bible makes is clear that directing ones worship to anything or anyone other than God is idolatry and idolatry is condemned all throughout the Bible. That is why Jesus at Luke 4:8 told Satan while he was being tempted that - “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”
Below is from an article from an April 1997 article of the Watchtower that discusses the origin of saints.
The Christian Greek Scriptures designate as “holy ones,” or “saints,” all those early Christians who were cleansed by the blood of Christ and who were set apart for God’s service as prospective joint heirs with Christ. (Acts 9:32; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 13:13) Men and women, prominent and lowly ones in the congregation, all were described as "holy ones while living here on earth. Recognition of their being saints Scripturally was obviously not deferred until after they had died.
After the second century C.E., though, while apostate Christianity was taking shape, the tendency was to try to make Christianity popular, a religion that would appeal to pagan peoples and be readily acceptable to them. These pagans worshiped a pantheon of gods, and the new religion was strictly monotheistic. So a compromise would be possible through the adoption of “saints, who would take the place of the ancient gods, demigods, and mythical heroes. Commenting on this, the book Ekklisiastiki Istoria (Ecclesiastical History) states: 'For those being converted from paganism to Christianity, it was easy to recognize their abandoned heroes in the person of the martyrs and to start rendering them the honor they previously gave to the former ones. . . . Very often, however, the rendering of such honor to the saints came to be pure idolatry.”
Another reference work explains how “saints” were introduced into Christendom: “In the rendering of honor to the saints of the Greek Orthodox Church, we find obvious traces of the strong influence that pagan religion had. Qualities that were attributed to the Olympian gods before [people] were converted to Christianity were now ascribed to the saints. . . . From the early years of the new religion, we see its adherents replacing the sun-god (Phoebus Apollo) with the Prophet Elijah, building churches on, or next to, the ruins of ancient temples or shrines of this god, mostly on the top of hills and mountains, at every place where the ancient Greeks honored the light-giver Phoebus Apollo. . . . They even identified the Virgin-goddess Athena with the Virgin Mary herself. Thus, the gap that was created when the idol of Athena was torn down was eliminated within the soul of the converted idolater.”-Neoteron Enkyklopaidikon Lexikon (New Encyclopedic Dictionary), Volume 1, pages 270-1.
Examine, for instance, the situation existing in Athens as late as the end of the fourth century C.E. The majority of the inhabitants of that city were still pagans. One of their most sacred rituals was the Eleusinian mysteries, a double event, held annually in February in the town of Eleusis, 14 miles [23 km] northwest of Athens. To attend these mysteries, the pagan Athenians had to follow the Sacred Way (Hiera’ Hodos’). Attempting to provide an alternative place of worship, the leaders of the city proved to be quite ingenious. On the same road, about six miles [10 km] from Athens, the Daphni monastery was built to attract the pagans and to prevent them from attending the mysteries. The church of the monastery was built on the foundation of the ancient temple devoted to the Greek god Daphnaios, or Pythios Apollo.
Evidence of the integration of pagan deities into the veneration of “saints” can be found also on the island of Kithira, Greece. On one of the island’s summits, there are two small Byzantine chapels-one of them dedicated to “Saint” George, the other to the Virgin Mary. Excavations revealed that this was the site of a Minoan summit shrine that served as a place of worship almost 3,500 years ago. During the sixth or seventh century C.E., “Christians” built their chapel to “Saint” George on the exact site of the summit shrine. The move was highly symbolic; that advanced center of Minoan religion commanded the sea routes of the Aegean Sea. The two churches were built there to secure the favor of Our Lady and “Saint” George, the latter being celebrated on the same day as the “seamen’s protector,” “Saint” Nicholas. A newspaper reporting on this discovery said: “Today the [Greek Orthodox] priest will ascend the mountain, just as in ancient times the Minoan priest would,” in order to perform religious services!
Summing up the extent to which apostate Christianity was influenced by pagan Greek religion, a historical researcher points out: “The paganistic substratum of the Christian religion often remains unchanged in popular beliefs, thus testifying to the enduring nature of tradition.”
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Praying to saints to intercede on our behalf is not a Bible teaching. Nowhere in the inspired canon can this practice be found. Catholics add the Apocrypha to their Bible and use a passage in 2 Maccabees to support the belief of intercession by saints which is why this is exclusively a Catholic teaching. The books in the Apocrypha are not inspired by God. God is the only one in the Bible called the “Hearer of Prayer.” Paul said at Philippians 4:6: "In everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God. So no matter what it is we pray for it should be directed to God only.
[/quote]
That is an interesting topic, I am sure you know scripture better than me. Can you show me why praying to the Saints is wrong?
[/quote]
Sure. There’s several scriptures in the Bible that state who should be prayed to and who’s the only one that can intercede between man and God.
First, at Matthew 6:9 Jesus taught in his model prayer that prayers should be directed to his father only when he said: “You must pray, then, this way: ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.’”
Then Jesus clearly states at John 14:6 that the only way to get to his father is through him. These verses state:
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Next, there are a number of scriptures where Paul stresses that the only way to approach God is through Jesus only.
1 Timothy 2:5 states: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.”
Romans 8:34 states: “Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.”
Hebrew 7:25 states: “He is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.”
The above scriptures make it clear that God is the only one we should pray to and the only way to get to God is through his son Jesus Christ only; not saints.
Also, praying is a form of worship and the Bible makes is clear that directing ones worship to anything or anyone other than God is idolatry and idolatry is condemned all throughout the Bible. That is why Jesus at Luke 4:8 told Satan while he was being tempted that - “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”
[/quote]
Well, I agree with the scripture you posted 100%, no doubt about it! I also agree that idolatry is of the first order of evil and all forms of it should be punished and those that commit it in its severest form (to deny G-d, forever)…to hell with 'em!
I hope you do not mind, but I will stick to the Bible, as I do not count the Watchtower as an authority (yet), as I assume you do not take the Catholic Church to be authority. Therefore, we will keep the common ground of the Bible.
As a Catholic, I believe that we know we are ‘one family’ (Eph 3:14-15), and that one family is in Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church (Eph 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col 1:18 & 24). I also believe that Paul told us to supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people (1 Tim 2:1-2). In addition, that both those who are alive and fallen asleep are in that one family, because well G-d is not the G-d of the dead (Matt 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:3). Moreover, I believe that the prayers of the righteous are powerful (James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8 & 29) and sometimes they are the only thing G-d listens to like Job and his three friends (Job 42:7-9).
Now, as a Catholic I believe that talking with the dead or those that are asleep is not wrong, after all Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30). Nevertheless, I believe that Angels and those that have fallen asleep are both Saints (Dan 4:13 & 23; 8:23). Moreover, as I believe in the whole Bible, I hold to the Psalms and so that means I praise and ask for their assistance (Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2). This is just as I believe Peter taught us to honor all men (1 Peter 2:17), and from Peter’s example of praying to the Angels to release him from prison (Acts 12:7).
Also, I believe Jesus prayed to the Angels and as well even told Peter that he could call upon the assistance of twelve legions of Angels (Matt 26:53), and if Jesus could do that that means we could do that as we are called to imitate Jesus in word and deed. Moreover, Jesus tells us that we will be “like angels in heaven” in, which would mean that we in Heaven would be able to be called upon to give assistance (Matt 22:30).
Now, I am all about the truth and if I am not following the truth, I want to know. So, please tell me…what of that did I write that is wrong?
Personal testimony on praying to the Saints: I have never worshiped a Saint in my life, well except maybe my grandmother.
When I pray to the Saints and venerate them, that is because they are G-d’s children. Not because by themselves they are great. Moreover, when I pray to them I do not pray because I want to profit from it, but because I want them to pray for me to G-d for something. I may pray an devotion, but throughout the day most of my prayers to the Saints are in this formula:
Blessed John Paul II, pray for me.
St. Augustine, pray for me.
St. George, pray for me.
Or, my favorite lady…Mother of Mercy, Mary, pray for me.
Keep in mind that in most languages, “saint” is not a noun. It is an adjective that means “blessed” or “holy”. One who is holy is a member of the holy nation that is the Church, so when we ask the living members of the church to pray for us, it is the same thing, and they are holy too by virtue of membership in Christ’s body.
“But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.”
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well, I agree with the scripture you posted 100%, no doubt about it! I also agree that idolatry is of the first order of evil and all forms of it should be punished and those that commit it in its severest form (to deny G-d, forever)…to hell with 'em!
I hope you do not mind, but I will stick to the Bible, as I do not count the Watchtower as an authority (yet), as I assume you do not take the Catholic Church to be authority. Therefore, we will keep the common ground of the Bible.[/quote]
Thanks for the response. I debated with myself as to whether I should include the part from the Watchtower in my post realizing that you wouldn’t pay much attention to it. I included it because the historicity of the references regarding the origin of saints are from outside sources and are true. Also, it’s a historical fact that in the middle of the second century C.E., some Christians began using concepts borrowed from ancient philosophers in order to explain their beliefs. Why? They wanted to be accepted by the educated people of the Roman Empire and thus make more converts. Also, as the article pointed out these converts were use to worshiping a number of different gods and as a way to appease these converts, Christians adopted saints to take place of pagan gods these converts use to worship. Do some research on it and you will find that what’s stated above is true.
[quote]
As a Catholic, I believe that we know we are ‘one family’ (Eph 3:14-15), and that one family is in Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church (Eph 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col 1:18 & 24). I also believe that Paul told us to supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people (1 Tim 2:1-2). In addition, that both those who are alive and fallen asleep are in that one family, because well G-d is not the G-d of the dead (Matt 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:3). Moreover, I believe that the prayers of the righteous are powerful (James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8 & 29) and sometimes they are the only thing G-d listens to like Job and his three friends (Job 42:7-9). [/quote]
That’s good you believe in the whole Bible. You quote a lot of scriptures but unfortunately, all of them are misapplied regarding praying to saints. None of the scripture you quoted support praying to saints or spirit creatures or even holding saints or spirit creatures in high regard. At 1 Timothy 1:1,2 Paul is stating that we should pray to God or intercede for all sorts of people. Meaning that you should pray for other people, however when we do the act of praying for these people it should be directed to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Timothy 1:1,2 does not support praying to saints or other spirit creatures in heaven.
The scriptures you quoted at Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:3 support the resurrection - not praying to saints. Those scriptures mean that people who have died are not dead to God because the dead state they are in is only temporary due to the fact that God is going to resurrect them. To God the length of time that the dead are actually dead is relatively short so people who have died are still living to him. A statement Jesus said at Matthew 10:28 can help you to better understand just who is dead to God. Matthew 28:10 states:
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”
Here Jesus is saying do not fear someone who can physically kill you because even though one’s body may be physically dead, the soul which is you as a person, is not destroyed. That’s because that person will be in God’s memory waiting to be resurrected. However, Jesus said fear him(God) that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna which symbolizes complete and everlasting destruction. God is the only one who can destroy both the physical body and soul or you as a person. When one is referred to as being in Gehenna and the lake of fire this means they are completely destroyed, have no hope of a resurrection and are no longer in God’s memory awaiting resurrection.
James 5:16 does say that a righteous man’s supplication has much force but again you’re misapplying the scripture. That scripture stresses that we should pray for each other especially when we know someone who is going through a trail. That verse in no way means that you should pray to saints or any other spirit creature who is not God. The same can be said of Proverbs 15:8, 29 and Job 42:7-9, those scriptures show that God hears the prayer of righteous people. Just because God hears the prayers of righteous people does not mean that we should pray to those righteous people whether they’re alive or dead.
[quote]
Now, as a Catholic I believe that talking with the dead or those that are asleep is not wrong, after all Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30). Nevertheless, I believe that Angels and those that have fallen asleep are both Saints (Dan 4:13 & 23; 8:23). Moreover, as I believe in the whole Bible, I hold to the Psalms and so that means I praise and ask for their assistance (Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2). This is just as I believe Peter taught us to honor all men (1 Peter 2:17), and from Peter’s example of praying to the Angels to release him from prison (Acts 12:7).[/quote]
The Bible makes it clear that those who are dead are no longer conscious and no longer have thoughts and feelings. Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 and 10 states: 5"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." 6"Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished."
10"All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."
Psalms 146:3,4 states: 3"Do not put you trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. 4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish."
Again the Bible makes it clear that the dead can’t feel, think or hear anyone talking to them.
At Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30 the transfiguration takes place. Here Jesus does talk to Moses and Elijah but this is not the resurrected Moses and Elijah because at Matthew 17:9 Jesus tells his apostles that what they just witnessed was a vision. Once the vision was over Moses and Elijah disappeared. Neither were Moses and Elijah in heaven because Jesus clearly states at John 3:13 that “no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” The transfiguration symbolized something else (I could explain what I believe it symbolized but it would take up too much space) and in no way supports or suggest that one should pray to saints.
Psalm 103:20-21 and 148:1,2 does not state that saints or angels should be prayed to. They simply state that angels should bless and praise God. No where in those two passages do they state or even hint that the angels should be called on for assistance or prayed to.
Yes, 1 Peter 2:17 states to honor all sort of men but what does that have to do with praying to saints?
Acts 12:7 does not state that Peter prayed for the angel to release him from prison. If you read the passage it states that Peter were sleeping, not that he was praying. The angel had to wake them up.
[quote]
Also, I believe Jesus prayed to the Angels and as well even told Peter that he could call upon the assistance of twelve legions of Angels (Matt 26:53), and if Jesus could do that that means we could do that as we are called to imitate Jesus in word and deed. Moreover, Jesus tells us that we will be “like angels in heaven” in, which would mean that we in Heaven would be able to be called upon to give assistance (Matt 22:30).[/quote]
Never did Jesus pray to the angels. At Matthew 26:53 Jesus did not say he would pray to the angels, he said he would call to his father. Verse 53 states “do not think I can call on my father and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels.”
Again, you misapplied Matthew 22:30. In this passage the Sadducees who don’t believe in the resurrection, try to trap Jesus by presenting him with an almost an impossible scenario about who a woman would marry after being resurrected. Jesus tells them that after being resurrected they would be just like angels who don’t have flesh a blood and do not marry. Here Jesus is saying that those resurrected as spirit beings will be just like the angels who were already in heaven. Meaning they will not have fleshly bodies and be able to marry humans on earth. Just because Jesus states that those who have the heavenly hope will be like angels does not mean that we should pray to them.
One final thought. Like I stated in my previous post praying to God is a form of worship. Notice what an angel tells John when he bows down to worship him at Revelation 22:8,9: "Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things. 9 But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.”
You say that you’re all about the truth. If you’re being truthful then look up the verses that you stated above and you will see that none of them state, support or even hint that saints or spirit creatures should be prayed to. If you’re all about the truth then look at my previous post and look up the scriptures that I quote and you will see that all of them support the statement I make.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
This is more of a comparison of people’s beliefs or interpretations.
I’ll start with a 2 basic topics for people to discuss.
The dead: What state or states are the dead in right now. Conscious, aware, is anyone in hell right “now” or in heaven? Where are Elijah, Moses, Enoch and Mary? Where/what is Hades. Where/what is purgatory? Where/what is paradise? What did Jesus mean when he told the theif that today he would be with him in paradise? Should we pray for the dead? Can we pray to “saints” to intercede on our behalf?
What is the origin of humans? Could they have had a natural origin, ie evloving from lower life forms? Are Adam and Eve historical, at least in there being 2 first humans? What does it mean in Genesis when it says that the Nephalim, or “sons of god” and daughters of man had intercourse, (or do I misremember that?) Did Adam and Eve’s children only reproduce with each other? Did God literally make humans from the dust of the earth? Did they live several hundred years in the early times? [/quote]
Dear Catholic Brothers in Christ,
Please play fair and allow a Protestant to assert his views as well.
Everyone dead is either in heaven or hades (land of the dead which is separated from God)
Hades is the land of the dead, not Gehenna which is the lake of fire or second death
All of the people from the Bible you mentioned are in heaven
Paradise is heaven
The thief went immediately to join Christ in heaven as Christ had destroyed the veil between the land of the dead and heaven
Praying for the dead won’t change what they personally did or believed
Jesus is the true intercessor to the Father
Humans were made by God
They did not evolve
Adam and Eve were real people
I have no idea if their children had intercourse with each other, but since that is looked down upon in the Bible, I would say no
I don’t know enough about the Nephalim
People probably did live longer in the early days. If we are to take the Bible literally then yes they did. There is a school of thought that calls this zoe life
Please feel free to offer any criticism you see fit
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
This is more of a comparison of people’s beliefs or interpretations.
I’ll start with a 2 basic topics for people to discuss.
The dead: What state or states are the dead in right now. Conscious, aware, is anyone in hell right “now” or in heaven? Where are Elijah, Moses, Enoch and Mary? Where/what is Hades. Where/what is purgatory? Where/what is paradise? What did Jesus mean when he told the theif that today he would be with him in paradise? Should we pray for the dead? Can we pray to “saints” to intercede on our behalf?
What is the origin of humans? Could they have had a natural origin, ie evloving from lower life forms? Are Adam and Eve historical, at least in there being 2 first humans? What does it mean in Genesis when it says that the Nephalim, or “sons of god” and daughters of man had intercourse, (or do I misremember that?) Did Adam and Eve’s children only reproduce with each other? Did God literally make humans from the dust of the earth? Did they live several hundred years in the early times? [/quote]
Dear Catholic Brothers in Christ,
Please play fair and allow a Protestant to assert his views as well.
Everyone dead is either in heaven or hades (land of the dead which is separated from God)[/quote]
Then why did Jesus go to Prison to preach to those in Prison.
[quote]
Hades is the land of the dead, not Gehenna which is the lake of fire or second death
All of the people from the Bible you mentioned are in heaven
Paradise is heaven
The thief went immediately to join Christ in heaven as Christ had destroyed the veil between the land of the dead and heaven[/quote]
The Kingdom of Heaven is wherever Jesus is, so if Jesus was in the Limbo of the fathers then yes he was still in the Kingdom of Heaven.
[quote]
Praying for the dead won’t change what they personally did or believed[/quote]
No, it won’t but it will in certain situations lessen their temporal punishment as we take on their temporal punishment for them.
Yes, but in him there are other intercessors, &c. And, if you want to take that literally as no other person can pray for you then why do you pray for yourself.
Science says otherwise. However, I think we can agree that the Father through Christ supernaturally infused our soul and body.
Yes.
I have no problem with this, but we have to remember that Jews didn’t have the same length of periods back then, we didn’t have the current calender until very recently.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
This is more of a comparison of people’s beliefs or interpretations.
I’ll start with a 2 basic topics for people to discuss.
The dead: What state or states are the dead in right now. Conscious, aware, is anyone in hell right “now” or in heaven? Where are Elijah, Moses, Enoch and Mary? Where/what is Hades. Where/what is purgatory? Where/what is paradise? What did Jesus mean when he told the theif that today he would be with him in paradise? Should we pray for the dead? Can we pray to “saints” to intercede on our behalf?
What is the origin of humans? Could they have had a natural origin, ie evloving from lower life forms? Are Adam and Eve historical, at least in there being 2 first humans? What does it mean in Genesis when it says that the Nephalim, or “sons of god” and daughters of man had intercourse, (or do I misremember that?) Did Adam and Eve’s children only reproduce with each other? Did God literally make humans from the dust of the earth? Did they live several hundred years in the early times? [/quote]
Dear Catholic Brothers in Christ,
Please play fair and allow a Protestant to assert his views as well.
Everyone dead is either in heaven or hades (land of the dead which is separated from God)[/quote]
Then why did Jesus go to Prison to preach to those in Prison.
[quote]
Hades is the land of the dead, not Gehenna which is the lake of fire or second death
All of the people from the Bible you mentioned are in heaven
Paradise is heaven
The thief went immediately to join Christ in heaven as Christ had destroyed the veil between the land of the dead and heaven[/quote]
The Kingdom of Heaven is wherever Jesus is, so if Jesus was in the Limbo of the fathers then yes he was still in the Kingdom of Heaven.
[quote]
Praying for the dead won’t change what they personally did or believed[/quote]
No, it won’t but it will in certain situations lessen their temporal punishment as we take on their temporal punishment for them.
Yes, but in him there are other intercessors, &c. And, if you want to take that literally as no other person can pray for you then why do you pray for yourself.
Science says otherwise. However, I think we can agree that the Father through Christ supernaturally infused our soul and body.
Yes.
I have no problem with this, but we have to remember that Jews didn’t have the same length of periods back then, we didn’t have the current calender until very recently.[/quote]
I believe, and again this is a point for debate that you could find true Christians on either side of, that Jesus preached to the dead in hades to proclaim victory over death before taking them to heaven to be in paradise.
As for the ancient Jewish calendar, I’m not sure if it is very clear when it first came into use or what they used before that. I know that the Sumerians invented a calendar that was about 40+ days short of what we currently have. It’s possibly, with Abraham being from Ur, that he could have continued that tradition, but there is no concrete evidence of how he or the early patriarchs counted time. I could believe that they used a calendar based on much shorter years and it not change the meaning of the Bible. It may make things unclear as to how long really passed between things like Adam and Eve and the Great Flood. For instance, people’s ages may have been recorded with the original calendar, but things could have also been backdated when the newer calendar was invented. Just a point to ponder I guess.
