I have a BMW 330i Performance Package with 18inch wheels. It’s undrivable in the snow, and yes its RWD. Snow tires makes it a tad bit easier to drive if you run it in low gears. 18inch wheels & low profile Yoko’s makes a dusting dangerous.
Get FWD with chubby showtires for the best winter traction/safety. Especially up in Minn where snow is on the ground all winter.
[quote]michaelv wrote:
Gleemonex wrote:
As a Canadian who considers himself a pretty good driver, I’ve always had RWD vehicles, and I feel far safer in them than FWDs in the winter. Think about it: if you lose traction in a FWD vehicle, you lose your most of your braking/acceleration AND your steering.
That’s what happens when you try to over-analyze something without full experience with the dynamics involved.
The front wheels pull the vehicle. If they lose traction, the vehicle contines in whatever direction it was going when traction was lost. Since the wheels are no longer pulling, you decelerate naturally (you still have rolling resistance in the rear). For our purposes, this is called understeer (literally, understeer is when the car turns less than the steering input).
Understeer is considered very safe. Car manufacturers will make cars understeer on purpose so that people don’t put them in the ditch so much. It’s naturally self-correcting.
When you lose traction in the rear, you now have more rolling resistance in the front than you have in the rear, so the rear will want to come around and switch places, e.g. fish-tailing. For our purposes, this is called oversteer (literally oversteer is the car turning more than the steering input). Oversteer, unless intentional and controlled (i.e. drifting) is considered bad, because once it happens, it becomes very difficult to regain control.
This is why FWD is safer and more controllable than RWD, for the average driver, when you have slippery conditions.[/quote]
I agree with both of these posters. I grew up in West Michigan with RWD and just cant get used to FWD in the winter. I hate the understeer. For the average driver without a clue where the oil dipstick is, but knows how to speed dial the cell phone at 80mph while zigzaging through 4 lanes of rush hour traffic, FWD is just fine.
My only suggestion would be to buy a winter beater SUV and park the fun car for a few months. I love sports cars and the g’s of a good corner. Snow negates this. In snow you want heavy with good tires and ground clearence. The best vehicled I have ever driven in the snow is my 2001 Excursion with the 7.3 Power Stroke. It is 8000lbs of snow beast.
Sweet. Thanks for all the replies and different perspectives; much appreciated.
I figured that the RX-8’s 50/50 weight distribution would help out - that and the traction control. Thanks for the tire suggestions, too.
To the poster who asked what color, probably the titanium grey with the brown and black leather. I’ve also thought the white with red and black leather would look bitchin’, too.
I’ve definitely got a handle on my driving skills. I think dirt and snow driving is something you learn to exploit, growing up in the midwest. 
Anyways, I’ll let you know what comes of it. I’m planning on heading down to the Minneapolis area for some test drives one of the next few weekends.
Thanks again; great to hear from people with experience (especially RX-8 owners).
Oh, and damn you Xen! I’m already having a hard enough time deciding.
[quote]michaelv wrote:
Gleemonex wrote:
As a Canadian who considers himself a pretty good driver, I’ve always had RWD vehicles, and I feel far safer in them than FWDs in the winter. Think about it: if you lose traction in a FWD vehicle, you lose your most of your braking/acceleration AND your steering.
That’s what happens when you try to over-analyze something without full experience with the dynamics involved.[/quote]
Umm… yeah. Your epistemology is broken. The above quote of mine is actually a severe UNDERanalysis, as I didn’t want to turn this into a massive usenet-style traction debate. I think we’re saying the same thing, but allow me to rephrase for clarity’s sake: in low-traction conditions, FWD is more forgiving and RWD offers better performance.
And here’s what I’d written:
If you’re going to correct me, would you do me the honour of disagreeing with me first?
Anyhow, I hope it all works out for you one way or the other, atmosphere!
-Glee
I drive and Audi A4 with AWD and Ive never really had a problem. I keep up with lifted trucks in a few inches of snow. If you are that worried about it FWD is the safest. With a FWD car the power goes to the front axle which is where all the wieght is because the engine is over it. RWD cars have less weight on the back end which makes it harder to get traction. Its all a matter of what makes you feel safe.
Gleemonex, I don’t get it. How does RWD offer “better performance” in low-traction conditions, especially snow, which is exactly what the original question was about?
If keeping the car under control is the goal, then FWD offers better “performance” in these cases. RWD just kicks the rear end around. Yeeha!
If you’re talking about on a race track, then the scenario doens’t match either, because if you’re getting into low-traction conditions, you’re not driving right, and you’ll be slow. That doesn’t sound like better performance.
Drifting, as in the sport, is about showing off, not going fast. Around a race track, you want to be driving near the maximum slip angle of the tires without pushing them beyond. This means at the limits of traction, not low traction. RWD offers better performance here simply because, first, it’s easier to induce slight oversteer when needed, and two it takes some work off the front wheels and gives it to the back. But that doesn’t have anything to do with low traction.
You’re right, we’re saying similar things, but the details are important, and they aren’t the same. I don’t believe there is any situation where RWD offers “better performance” in low-traction conditions, except drifting, and once again, that’s not what the original question was about.
How about if the understeer is taking you towards an obstacle (wall, another car, etc.)? In a RWD car one can stab the throttle to bring the car around so that your car does not hit the obstacle. In a FWD car, what does one do? Stabbing the throttle transfers weight to the rear, so now the front wheels actually have less traction than before, and you will continue understeering/pushing into the obstacle. I guess one can grab the e-brake, if thinking quickly enough, to bring the rear around.
This is why I dislike FWD for myself. I always had driven RWD until I bought a Contour for “safe” winter driving. That thing sucked in the snow about the same as my Mustang with summer tires on it, and I could not correct my line with the throttle the way I could in the Mustang. Now, I drive a Camaro every day with Blizzaks in the winter without a problem.
[quote]Need4Speed wrote:
Gleemonex, I don’t get it. How does RWD offer “better performance” in low-traction conditions, especially snow, which is exactly what the original question was about?
If keeping the car under control is the goal, then FWD offers better “performance” in these cases. RWD just kicks the rear end around. Yeeha!
If you’re talking about on a race track, then the scenario doens’t match either, because if you’re getting into low-traction conditions, you’re not driving right, and you’ll be slow. That doesn’t sound like better performance.
Drifting, as in the sport, is about showing off, not going fast. Around a race track, you want to be driving near the maximum slip angle of the tires without pushing them beyond. This means at the limits of traction, not low traction. RWD offers better performance here simply because, first, it’s easier to induce slight oversteer when needed, and two it takes some work off the front wheels and gives it to the back. But that doesn’t have anything to do with low traction.
You’re right, we’re saying similar things, but the details are important, and they aren’t the same. I don’t believe there is any situation where RWD offers “better performance” in low-traction conditions, except drifting, and once again, that’s not what the original question was about.[/quote]
My experience is fwd cars suck for pretty much everything. I’d take a rwd anyday. I had a mustang for years, drove it every winter with little or no problems. I now have an integra and this thing sucks in the snow. If it barely snows at all the car is a death trap. The front wheels do not pull the car, when you start to spin, the front end slides off the road… I guess they do pull you, RIGHT OFF THE ROAD.
I’m not sure that I would want to drive a brand new sports car all winter long though, I mean road salt is hell on the body and suspension.
Go with what your heart tells you and I’m guessing it’s the RX-8. The question isn’t RWD vs. FWD, the real question is, do you want the sedan or the sports car? I have an AWD car and I have to be honest with you, if you don’t have the right tires it doesn’t make a difference. My car performs great on dry pavement, but I have dry performance tires on it. I don’t need snow tires or even all-seasons living in southern AZ. I did make it up to Colorado during the winter months and had the car on snow…it was all over the place because of the tires. If I lived in Colorado or anywhere else that gets a good amount of snow, I would definitely get a set of Blizzaks as others have stated.
[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Unless you have good tires, a RWD tends to throw the rear around when the front hits thick stuff. This doesn’t happen on a FWD. [/quote]
This is called oversteer. It is when the car has a tendancy to turn too much when entering a corner.
Front wheel drive is the opposite, it has a tendancy to understeer.
this may make it seem like there is more controll, but in reallity it makes cornering harder but less likely to spin out.
you wont spin with FWD but you may just end up going straight when the road is turning!!
Honestly, pick whatever you like and take the needed measures to enjoy your car.
And what the hell are you doing driving a RX-8 in shitty weather anyways? road salt, higher chance of a car accident. get a beater or take the bus… good idea.
I lived in Rochester,MN. for three years and worked in the tire biz. My advice,if you are eventually going to go with an aftermarket rim and tire set up,not avalible through Mazda, get the cheap rims and buy a set of Blizzak tires for them. If you are planing on using the orginal rims during the summer ask the dealer which steel rims will fit your car and mount the Blizzaks on them for the winter. Steel would be a better idea rubber is less prone to leak on that surface during the winter.
Also snow tires are only manufactured for one month a year so buy early enough when their out their out. You will notice a drop in speed, mileage,and handling; snow tires are heavier due to a higher percentage of natural rubber.
I put a set on my car ('87 T-Bird RWD) and my wife’s ('86 CRX FWD) and their was not a day we couldn’t make it to school and work.Dammit.
Time for an update. . .
This past Friday I drove down to Minneapolis and picked up a new car - an '05 Mazda3 S Five-Door.
Yeah, I know I pussed out on the RX-8. But, in my defense, they had an amazing deal on the 3 that I couldn’t pass up. Also, thanks to all the financial threads, I made the smart move for the more practical car. It just makes more sense right now. But rest assured, there will be an RX-8 in my garage at some point.
Anyways, thanks again for all the help!
I have to say, it’s weird having to break-in an engine. I’ve never seen such low mileage.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Get FWD with chubby showtires for the best winter traction/safety. Especially up in Minn where snow is on the ground all winter.[/quote]
If by chubby you mean wide, I have to disagree. A narrower tire = less surface = more weight per square inch = better traction.
[quote]DAN C wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Get FWD with chubby showtires for the best winter traction/safety. Especially up in Minn where snow is on the ground all winter.
If by chubby you mean wide, I have to disagree. A narrower tire = less surface = more weight per square inch = better traction.
[/quote]
I’d agree on a light car like that RX-8, but some of the others mentioned above, expecially the German ones… Probably want a fatter tire to keep them from bogging down. All in all just keep a stock size snow tire.
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Get FWD with chubby showtires for the best winter traction/safety. Especially up in Minn where snow is on the ground all winter.
DAN C wrote:
If by chubby you mean wide, I have to disagree. A narrower tire = less surface = more weight per square inch = better traction.[/quote]
Correct. Think of it like this: a wide tire rides on top of the snow, a narrow tire cuts through it.