Capitalism: Is It Utopian?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]The Mage wrote:
An employee is worth whatever the market will pay. As long as there are a large group of illegals willing to work for small pay, that is what they will be paid. If a person wants more money, they need to improve their value to the market.[/quote]

In today’s Capitalist US workers are nothing more, nothing less, than goods.

One of the biggest problems is that currently companies are putting price ahead of quality, i.e., if they have a choice between a more qualified guy and a cheaper guy that is qualified enough to do the job, they’ll pick the cheaper guy. They’re not willing to pay more for a cushion of quality.

So “Improving their value to the market” would only be possible if people stopped competing to get a job; that would require that either demand outpaced offer, or that workers formed a Cartel.

142

[quote]hspder wrote:
In today’s Capitalist US workers are nothing more, nothing less, than goods.[/quote]

Not goods. Cost of Sales. Inputs. When has it ever been the other way around?

I dare say that a compnay that focused on worshiping at the throne of the worker is either: A) Now out of business. B.) Has achieved an economy of scale where the expense of said worship is minimal, or C.) Forced to by government, or union intervention. Most small/growing companies can’t afford to put undo emphasis on their hired help.

If a comapny can make more money with personnel that is qualified for a given position than they can with over-qualified personnel, where is the incentive to hire the over-qualified guy?

You sure do like to spend other folks’ money, don’t you?

143

The Mage wrote:
I really doubt we are as far apart as we seem. I believe everyone debating here really wants the same thing, a better world. Some think it is an end result, whereas I see it as a never-ending process of improvement.

----Well said, or written in this case.

The Mage wrote:
Now unfortunately internal competition may be best reduced, but is impossible to truly eliminate, but a team that can work together will be more efficient then one that is working against itself.

----I can’t see how I can improve my company without internal competition. It’s how you raise the bar and achieve more. I can use sports as an example. If I’m a second string QB, I’m keeping myself ready for the time I get called in, and when that happens I’ll try to perform at a level that keeps me in the starting position. If I raise my level over the incumbent’s, doesn’t the whole team improve? Tom Brady competed with Bledsoe, three championships later is the team better or worse? How about Wally Pipp? He wasn’t performing very well at first base for the Yankees, so they sat him for Lou Gehrig. Seven championships later, and an iron man record, is the team better or worse because of internal competition?

Here’s a business example. Back when I worked in tech, there was a re-org and our department got a new manager. This person was very successful at saving the company millions of dollars by negotiating with venders, and he had been there for about ten years. So upper management gave him the position since he gets results. It was a disaster. Within a week, he alienated the entire department, because he didn’t know how to talk to us. He was arrogant and lacked internal communication skills. The senior person in our department spoke up about it to him, his boss and HR. The manager went back to his previous job, and the senior person was given the managers’ job. The point is, he saw something lacking in this manger and competed for his job. He got it, the department improved and the company improved as a whole for it.

hspder wrote:
In today’s Capitalist US workers are nothing more, nothing less, than goods.

----In today’s Capitalist US, the workers are nothing more, nothing less, than living human beings. Flex-time, PDOs, company picnics, the freedom to speak your mind, 401ks, health insurance, mental heath insurance, addiction recovery, progress reports, bonuses for work accomplished --which is also completive since the person that achieves more rightfully gets compensated more than the others. Companies that do not do this will not grow at the rate of a company that does. People want to work for good companies that treat them right and companies are realizing this. That’s why the industry of business coaching is experiencing a boom.

hspder wrote:
One of the biggest problems is that currently companies are putting price ahead of quality, i.e., if they have a choice between a more qualified guy and a cheaper guy that is qualified enough to do the job, they’ll pick the cheaper guy. They’re not willing to pay more for a cushion of quality.

----That’s not true. Companies are willing to pay big time for the most qualified person. There was an article in the WSJ a little while back on how well rounded leaders are becoming rare and companies will pay them what they want. I used to be a tech business analyst, which is also rare, and recruiters where doing back flips when I was job hunting.

144

Reading this thread, you can tell that there are obviously various “different worlds” when it comes to employment, workplace and compensation packages.

The marketing buzzspeak is giving me a headache however.

145

Consume, comsume, consume…

As a matter, of fact I hope while driving your big-ass, double-hemi, V8, 50000 Hp, 2 mile to the gallon, super charged, penis extension of a Hummer two blocks away to the convenience store to buy a copy of Suburban Lifestyle and a snickers bar you crash head on into that idiot diving the new 2005 Saab 92X with his cell phone attached to his ear, talking to his broker (or travel agent, lawyer, mistress, etc.), pumping Kid Rock from the pair of 50s" in his trunk that he bought with the $50,000 bonus the board of directors thought he earned for increasing profits for the third straight quarter. Do us all a favor and?. move to Texas.

And no, gated-communities and the suburbs don’t count. No offense meant to Texans. We just need to keep an eye on these people; and Texas is big enough so all these elitist bastards can have their own gated-community.

146

And everyone gets on my ass about going off on rants.

We’ll take everyone of them rich bastards in Texas. Ya’ll don’t forget to buy homes and buy stuff wehn you get here. I can smell the money now.

When will folks realize that rich is a good thing? Give me a state full of bonus gettin’, SUV drivin’ richies over the Yugo crowd anyday.

147

I drive a '99 Hyundai Accent.

:slight_smile:

148

When I lived in a gated community in Texas, well, no wait, it was a gated apartment complex, anyhow, it was cool when the visiting young ladies had to wait at the gate while the guard called for me to let them in.

Don’t knock gated communities until you’ve tried them… :stuck_out_tongue:

P.S. Enough ranting out of you Rainjack!

149

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You sure do like to spend other folks’ money, don’t you?[/quote]

I shouldn’t be replying, but you’re so out of line here that I need to say something.

My parents both died in car accident (a colleague of them was giving them a ride home, and they were all hit by a drunk truck driver – nobody in the car survived) when I was 16; we didn’t own a house (we rented) nor a car, and my parents always gave away all their disposable income, so after the funeral costs I inherited the staggering amount of US$75.

My grandparents were all retired and very humble people (the money that should have gone to their retirement savings instead went to put their children through colleage), and I didn’t want to be a burden to them, so I got a job the same year and started working.

I paid my way through college, all the way to my PhD. Yes, having my parent’s name did open some doors, but that was it; financially, I was on my own.

When I got married, I brought my wife here from Brazil and paid her way through college too. She’s now a brilliant Math professor – best investment I ever made.

Our combined gross income is about $400k a year. Yes, it’s a lot of money, but do you know exactly how much of that money we actually get to see? Only a quarter (about $100k), which is just enough to pay all the bills (living here is REALLY expensive) and save 10% for retirement. The other $300k go to taxes and charitable organizations. Yes, charity. We gave $250k (that’s a quarter of a million dollars) just last year to various charitable organizations.

I practice what I preach.

Now, my job IS to tell other people how they can spend their money. True. That’s what they pay me for. But do I spend their money for them? Hardly.

150

[quote]hspder wrote:
Our combined gross income is about $400k a year. [/quote]

You are grossly overpaid. Just like the corporate CEO’s ou have been blasting.

151

[quote]hspder wrote:
I shouldn’t be replying, but you’re so out of line here that I need to say something.[/quote]

What is out of line about me commenting about your laments against executive salaries, your allusions to the mistreatment of the american worker, and the villification of business in general?

You have the right to make as much money as you possibly can, and to do with that income what you want. You don’t seem to think that right should be given to anyone else, unless they make it and spend it the same way you do.

What happened to your parents was tragic, and I can’t say that I don’t respect your efforts to achieve the success you have. But in the same breath, your life does not entitle you to sit in judgement over those that took a different path to to their achievements.

Maybe I would do well to take some of my own advice, but then what the hell would you left-wing elitists do for fun?

I would really like an explanation as to why you think my comment was “so out of line here”.

152

[quote]IagoMB wrote:

The Mage wrote:
Now unfortunately internal competition may be best reduced, but is impossible to truly eliminate, but a team that can work together will be more efficient then one that is working against itself.

----I can’t see how I can improve my company without internal competition. It’s how you raise the bar and achieve more. I can use sports as an example. If I’m a second string QB, I’m keeping myself ready for the time I get called in, and when that happens I’ll try to perform at a level that keeps me in the starting position. If I raise my level over the incumbent’s, doesn’t the whole team improve? Tom Brady competed with Bledsoe, three championships later is the team better or worse? How about Wally Pipp? He wasn’t performing very well at first base for the Yankees, so they sat him for Lou Gehrig. Seven championships later, and an iron man record, is the team better or worse because of internal competition? [/quote]

Actually I should have defined this a little better. All of this is actually very dependant upon the situation. A company usually works best when they see the competition outside of the company, but within can cause trouble, or it can motivate. If used improperly then it too often creates jealousy and resentment, while if a group works together as a team, they all can take part in a reward.

Maybe a good example would be creating a situation where the basketball player would keep the ball because he wanted to make the basket, instead of passing it to another player who had a better chance of making it.

This could happen if they were to give a big bonus to the player who makes the most baskets in the game.

Maybe competing in practice from time to time, but it is not a good idea to compete against teammates on the court.

153

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I would really like an explanation as to why you think my comment was “so out of line here”.[/quote]

I have no problems with complaints that I’m imposing my own views when I tell people how to spend their own money; I do have a problem with the accusation that I like spending other people’s money. That’s where I think you went far out of line: I resent that implication, considering that I’ve been making my own money and not living off somebody else’s salary for a long time now.

And, by the way: most of our income is from copyright and investment, not from our Stanford salaries, so it’s not even the “student’s money”.