Why go to the extreme? Everyone accepts communism doesn’t work, even most of the people who like the idea of it.
Why not instead have the socialism vs capitalist argument instead? I think the discussion would be a bit more interesting.
Cream, other than not knowing how to use quotes, you’ve got one or two other issues…
My post slices both left and right equally… or were you complaining about something other than a perceived political bias?
My post slices into the Canadian system just as effectively as it does the US system… or were you complaining about something other than a perceived national bias?
In short, you are looking for something that simply isn’t there… except in your own eyes.
Our system isn’t perfect, its merely the best the world has seen so far. Maybe if we didn’t whine and cry when people point out shortcomings we could find a better one in our lifetimes.
[quote]ConorM wrote:
Why go to the extreme? Everyone accepts communism doesn’t work, even most of the people who like the idea of it.
Why not instead have the socialism vs capitalist argument instead? I think the discussion would be a bit more interesting.[/quote]
Because socialism is essentially a bastard, hybrid form of government that takes the worst from each ideal and transforms it into an unhappy medium.
I think a major problem with how people view capitilism is they think that all the high profile power and money people are automatically the best off. This is straight up illusion. The happiest people on this planet, are overqualified, underpaid and have much less responsibility than they can handle. These are the people who love going into work, nobody gives them shit because everyone knows they should be up the street making another 20k a year.
Additionaly, this person never screws up anyways because the workload is half a days work with his/her skill level, so s/he gets to take it easy all day long. This person doesn’t care about having the fastest sports cars, the biggest houses, they understand this isn’t what brings happiness. This person goes home, barbeques, golfs, bowls, makes love to his/her wife/husband, gardens, relaxes, etc… This person has to deal with stress when a family member or friend dies, or when someone else has a problem.
Your CEO’s your politicians, your lawyers… they all lead lives of high stress, fast paced, high demand B.S. They constantly have to live an image and that image has to be improving all the time. It’s the preverbial pissing match where each persons material wealth is how far they can piss. Pathetic. (I don’t know Tim Patterson but I’m not sure this apllies to all CEO’s, allthough if he doesn’t sponsor a t-nation barbeque in the near future…) Anyways, I think people need to stop turning to the TV to tell them what a good life is and start looking within themselves, maybe they aren’t that far off thier perfect life after all.
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
I think a major problem with how people view capitilism is they think that all the high profile power and money people are automatically the best off. This is straight up illusion. The happiest people on this planet, are overqualified, underpaid and have much less responsibility than they can handle. These are the people who love going into work, nobody gives them shit because everyone knows they should be up the street making another 20k a year.
[…]
Your CEO’s your politicians, your lawyers… they all lead lives of high stress, fast paced, high demand B.S. They constantly have to live an image and that image has to be improving all the time. It’s the preverbial pissing match where each persons material wealth is how far they can piss. Pathetic. (I don’t know Tim Patterson but I’m not sure this apllies to all CEO’s, allthough if he doesn’t sponsor a t-nation barbeque in the near future…) Anyways, I think people need to stop turning to the TV to tell them what a good life is and start looking within themselves, maybe they aren’t that far off thier perfect life after all.[/quote]
Great post! I’m 100% in agreement. I just wished most people in this country had the same revelation…
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
About the imperfections of Capitalism:
I agree with everyone 100%. It requires a vigourous system of checks and balances (both public and Private) and “safety nets” (both public and private)of the “have-nots” can very soon become “have-nothings”…
I also agree with vroom and others…it’s a system that must operate within a system of Freedom backed by strong protection of individual rights…[/quote]
Now, first of all, I’ll say I agree with you. You just described Euro-style Social Democracy, and you probably have figured out I subscribe to those same principles.
Problem is, as evident by the state of the EU’s economy, it’s extremely easy to have Social-Democracy fail terribly.
Why? Nephorm’s comment that it links the worst in the two systems (the contra-natura of Communism with the immorality of Capitalism) sums it up quite nicely – even though I believe nephorm was looking at the (bad) results rather than the (quite reasonable) ideal.
However, if one realizes the shortcomings and deals with them properly, it can be the best of all economic systems.
Let’s start with the first one you mention: the vigourous system of checks and balances (both public and Private) and “safety nets” (both public and private) or the “have-nots” can very soon become “have-nothings”…
Why is this contra-natura? Simple: because one of the things that makes us different from other life forms is our ability to go to great lengths to avoid work. Most people dedicate their life and their IQ to avoiding work. Think about it: from fire and tools to cars and computers, humanity excels at coming up with inventions to reduce their effort and workload.
So if you give people a safety net, they WILL ABUSE IT as much as possible – to the furthest extent that the laws can permit them to – and beyond.
Hence the failure of Social Security.
Now, if we realize that fundamental problem – the fact that it is in our nature to abuse and exploit any safety net to the furthest possible extent – we can design a system that can create such a dis-incentive for abuse that it will actually be less work to not use it – people will actually try to stay in the air rather than let themselves fall into the safety net. Unless they are REALLY completely unable to fly.
There are many ways to do that, rooted in Game Theory – but that’s a completely different thread.
With those ways Socialism can be made to leverage our nature, contrary to Communism, which can never be changed enough to do that.
Now, let’s address the second thing you mentioned:
“it’s a system that must operate within a system of Freedom backed by strong protection of individual rights…”
I think the US, more than any other Western nation, has proven that this is immensely difficult. Why? Because it is also contra-natura.
In order to maintain our delusions – our little worlds that stop us from having to face our worst fears and insecurities – we tend to seek and destroy every single person that endangers the survival of our delusion. Nothing gets a stronger response from people than telling them something that jeopardizes their little world.
Mankind is so obsessed with that maintenance that it even proactively attacks people that it cannot control or even that it suspects that might think differently. All difference becomes a threat to our delusional worlds.
“Unfortunately” that goes completely against the principle of individual rights – as seen often times in the US’ history.
Capitalism has a very cowardly – but effective – way to deal with people that threaten other people’s delusions: it’s called getting fired. The threat of losing one’s job is incredibly effective at keeping those pesky opinions at bay.
Social-Democracy, on the other hand, doesn’t allow people to deal with it. The result is that people’s delusions are constantly jeopardized, and we eventually might get an almost delusion-free population. The result? De-motivation. Depression. Sadness. Even suicide. Look at the suicide numbers in bastions of Social-Democracy like Sweden, NL, or Germany. It might be also the weather – but, in my mind, lack of Sun by itself doesn’t explain it. Poor maintenance of people’s little worlds explains it.
So, how to deal with this? Education. If people are educated into the principles that Vegita mentioned, for example, and allowed to discuss and deal with their personal demons within the educational system, they will become stronger, better adults that will be able to, eventually, live in the realm of reality with the rest of us.
That was also a very good well thought out post Hspder, However, you are looking to fix everyone elses problem, or force them into realizing what we realize. Tha fact is, the capitalist system, gives me the ability to lead the perfect life. There is always going to be some simplistic, yet driven, suppressed individual who will take and want as much power and wealth as they can get. This idea has been around as long as man has lived, and is far older than all forms of government and social systems put together.
Now I don’t see anything wrong with you or anyone wanting to change the world for the better, But as you said, in order for the changes you mentioned to take place, in the US alone, let alone the whole world, would be almost so difficult it might not be worth it at this point. What needs to happen in order for change of that nature and on that level sadly is another dark age. This will force people to get fed up enough of the world thoey thought they understood and open up to a new more rational idea on what a society and life should be all about.
At this time, Maybe people will be able to put systems in place where once someone achieves, 150% of what it will take to keep them alive and happy for the rest of thier lives, they are forced to stop working, stop seeking power, stop making money etc… This will continually open up higher paying jobs, it will limit a persons ability to amass mounds of wealth at the expense of the average joe. And hey, maybe if you want to continue working because you like what you do… you do it for free. anyways just some more rambling thoughts.
V
Maybe I favor a more totalitarian socialist system because I’m the only one so far (I think) that didn’t grow up (or isn’t growing up, I’m only 16) in a first world nation. It’s incredibly common for communist leaders ?la Che Guevara to pop up in third-world nations, especially in Latin America. I think the reason for this is because they’ve usually seen first hand the true nature of people. When they see just how repulsive we are, it’s incredibly hard not to lose faith in mankind. Let’s put it this way: I’m guessing most people here have a pretty good idea of the problems that abound in the world. Here’s a simple stat as an example: 961 children are raped every day in South Africa. I consider(ed) myself a kind person, much more caring and knowledgable than the average joe. I felt extremely bad when I first came about the study showin this (and some other data about African nations). I wanted to go there and help via a peace-corps-like group. I wanted to donate money, to start something, anything, to help. And you know what? I didn’t do a damned thing. I sat on my ass and saved my latest paycheck in order to go to Germany 2006 (world cup for you non-soccer fans).
So many people around the world either don’t know or don’t care about the suffering that abounds. Those who do lose their faith in humanity, and slowly but surely come to the relization that people can’t be trusted, that a maquiavelique (sp?) government must be set up to ensure that oppresion is no more (except, ironically, when it’s done by them to control would-be ‘oppresors). Che felt it was justified to fight and kill those who opposed his vision (for whatever reason). Hell, I sometimes feel that way (though I’m too much of a coward to act upon it, another dispicable human trait), and I live in friggin’ Mexico, not Congo.
I guess this is just an endless ramble, but the point I’m trying to make is that when you actually witness what the majority of the world’s 6+ billion people live through, when you’re actually there, because pictures, videos, and stories aren’t the same, you seriously doubt how we survived for this long.
The main comfort I have is that we have (mostly) progressed to a better quality of life, and even that is debatable. Even though most western countries live much better now than 2,3,4 hundred years ago, the same can’t be said for the rest of the world (though that’s another debate). So I guess, or hope, that man is inherently good, because if this isn’t the case, then I really can’t see any other choice than the de-humanization of the people in order to ensure the survival of the all. (last note: this is in no way a support of any mass killings, genocide or otherwise).
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
Maybe I favor a more totalitarian socialist system because I’m the only one so far (I think) that didn’t grow up (or isn’t growing up, I’m only 16) in a first world nation. [/quote]
Well - that explains a lot right there. Go get a job sparky, and you’ll soon change your tune. Better yet have the balls to start a business and tell me we need a totalitarian socialist system.
Good God - first Al Shades, and now you? I’m gonna go kick my son’s ass now just for being close to your age.
“…Maybe I favor a more Totalitarian Socialist System…”
nopal:
My simple question is “why”?
How is it that a Totalitarian Socialist System “cures” any of the ills that you listed?
I’m confused…really…
Mufasa
Damn… I knew I’d get flamed for that first sentence. Did you guys at least read the rest of my post?
“Well - that explains a lot right there. Go get a job sparky, and you’ll soon change your tune. Better yet have the balls to start a business and tell me we need a totalitarian socialist system.”
I have a job. I started working when I was 12; 8 hours a day for 2 months during the summer for 60 pesos ( 7 bucks in U.S. dollars back then) loading and unloading supplies and stocking them for a office supplies store.
I currently work at UCR, at the UC MexUS headquarters as an assistant to the director.
I also did some unoficial work at my uncle’s ranch (grows flowers and plants), who did have the balls to start his own business and feels the same way I do. I (and almost all my cousins) worked there every summer since I was 8, going down all the rows to check for humidity, plagues, weeds, and soil composition. But I guess I don’t know anything about working.
In response to the other post, my main point was that some communist leaders lose faith in humanity after personally witnessing what really happens around the world, so they come to the conclusion that if a less ‘free’ government is set up, (provided there are the right leaders) it can control the general populace to ensure that everyone meets their base needs to ensure survival.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
In response to the other post, my main point was that some communist leaders lose faith in humanity after personally witnessing what really happens around the world, so they come to the conclusion that if a less ‘free’ government is set up, (provided there are the right leaders) it can control the general populace to ensure that everyone meets their base needs to ensure survival. [/quote]
Okay, but the problem here is that you got guys like Kim Jong Il who do this “less free” version, and then realize that they don’t even give a crap about anything except staying in power. The result: people are starving to death in North Korea, while he plays “hardball” with nuclear disarmament talks with China.
It doesn’t work, son. When you take away people’s freedoms and give it to one or a few guys, it ends up bad. Maybe the thing you’re missing here about personal freedoms is that it goes both ways. Yes, you have the freedom to succeed… but you also need the freedom to fail. You can’t let some government take that away, or else nobody is motivated to do anything.
I think that’s the root problem with socialism and communism. You have to be able to let people fuck up.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
I have a job. I started working when I was 12; 8 hours a day for 2 months during the summer for 60 pesos ( 7 bucks in U.S. dollars back then) loading and unloading supplies and stocking them for a office supplies store.
I currently work at UCR, at the UC MexUS headquarters as an assistant to the director.
I also did some unoficial work at my uncle’s ranch (grows flowers and plants), who did have the balls to start his own business and feels the same way I do. I (and almost all my cousins) worked there every summer since I was 8, going down all the rows to check for humidity, plagues, weeds, and soil composition. But I guess I don’t know anything about working.
In response to the other post, my main point was that some communist leaders lose faith in humanity after personally witnessing what really happens around the world, so they come to the conclusion that if a less ‘free’ government is set up, (provided there are the right leaders) it can control the general populace to ensure that everyone meets their base needs to ensure survival. [/quote]
8 hours a day for 2 months, huh? You are truly a hardened veteran of the workforce.
Maybe Mexico needs a better form of gov’t. The ruling party of mexico prior to Fox held power for over 60 years or so, right? I would hardly compare the economic system in Mexico with that of the U.S.
You would give up your right to choose the paths you want to take, and give up your right to a democratic process, even give up democracy altogether - in exchange for what? A totalitarian-socialist?
Whatever floats your boat, dude.
"Maybe Mexico needs a better form of gov’t. The ruling party of mexico prior to Fox held power for over 60 years or so, right? I would hardly compare the economic system in Mexico with that of the U.S. "
Yes, Mexico does need a better form of government, and I wouldn’t compare the two systems. That doesn’t mean that I don’t know what real work is. And if case you were wondering, UCR stands for University of California Riverside extension, and California isn’t a part of Mexico (at least not since 1848, but that’s another debate topic).
I think it’s a necesary evil to give up some liberties in order to eradicate the level of worldwide suffering. If the 20% of the world populace must renounce their tranquil lifestyles to ensure that the other 80% can live past 40 without being raped, tortured, or exploited (or even live past 40), then by all means they should. I’m looking at it from a worldwide perspective, not just a national one. It’s not like I like a totalitarian regime, it’s that fact that I think there’s no other way.
And for the record, I’ve kept all of my paychecks, since I either want to donate them to a ‘real’ charitable organization, or go to the canyons in souther Tijuana and help an aquaintance rebuild her house.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
Maybe I favor a more totalitarian socialist system […] I think the reason for this is because they’ve usually seen first hand the true nature of people. When they see just how repulsive we are, it’s incredibly hard not to lose faith in mankind. […] Those who do lose their faith in humanity, and slowly but surely come to the relization that people can’t be trusted, that a maquiavelique (sp?) government must be set up to ensure that oppresion is no more (except, ironically, when it’s done by them to control would-be ‘oppresors). Che felt it was justified to fight and kill those who opposed his vision (for whatever reason). Hell, I sometimes feel that way (though I’m too much of a coward to act upon it, another dispicable human trait), and I live in friggin’ Mexico, not Congo.[/quote]
I can relate to what you’re feeling – to how you’re feeling, at least. However, you should understand that totalitarian regimes will never achieve anything but even more suffering and pain. Because they take choice (and the illusion of it) away from people, and there’s nothing – nothing – worse than that – and nothing that is more effective at brining the worst of the worst in us.
Will all our deep flaws and failures, with our immoral, viral instincts, probably the single thing that we share with every single animal out there is that we need at least the illusion that we have some control over our lives – that we can make our own choices – to keep our mental sanity.
If you haven’t yet, watch Dark City and the Matrix trilogy – the latter of which, although sometimes too much inspired in the Upanishads (the root of both Hindu and Buddhist philosophy), it presents some deep insights into human nature that will, at least, make you think. Here are some quotes I use in some of my classes, since they reflect some of the philosophical principles behind Game Theory:
"
Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.
Agent Smith: I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you’re not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.
The Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
The Architect: Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
Neo: Choice, the problem is choice.
Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you’re fighting for something? For more that your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can’t win. It’s pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?
Neo: Because I choose to.
Merovingian: Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without.
[about Merovingian]
Neo: What does he want?
The Oracle: What do all men with power want? More power.
The Architect: You played a very dangerous game.
The Oracle: Change always is.
"
and a quote that could have been attributed to Marx himself:
"
The Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph only equaled by its monumental failure.
"
[quote]Vegita wrote:
However, you are looking to fix everyone elses problem, or force them into realizing what we realize. [/quote]
I’m a professor and a researcher. What you just described is, in a nutshell, my job! 
[quote]hspder wrote:
Vegita wrote:
However, you are looking to fix everyone elses problem, or force them into realizing what we realize.
I’m a professor and a researcher. What you just described is, in a nutshell, my job!
[/quote]
So why do you have such a dim view of human nature and the world in general? Have you ever heard of a book entitled “The Tao of Pooh?” It’ll cheer you up a little, I’d think.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
Maybe I favor a more totalitarian socialist system because I’m the only one so far (I think) that didn’t grow up (or isn’t growing up, I’m only 16) in a first world nation. It’s incredibly common for communist leaders ?la Che Guevara to pop up in third-world nations, especially in Latin America. …[/quote]
Never be tempted to give up your freedoms. People like Che Guevara may have started with good intentions to take care of the people, but that is impossible. They just end up taking care of themselves. They just try to hang onto power. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
All government will have corruption. A totalitarian regime will be totally corrupt.
Capitalism allows people to take care of themselves. When big business is exploiting the workers the workers must be free to unionize, but they must not get too greedy as many American unions have done.
Communism has been popular in the third world because people see it as a change and they think any change must be good. It is not.
I have friends that escaped from Poland and East Germany before the wall fell. They are some of the brightest people I know and they hate commiunism with a passion.
You are young. Study and learn. Coming from a poor system like you have in Mexico you must not let envy for the freedoms and riches in America cloud your thinking. America does not cause Mexico’s problems. Mexico does.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Vegita wrote:
However, you are looking to fix everyone elses problem, or force them into realizing what we realize.
I’m a professor and a researcher. What you just described is, in a nutshell, my job!
[/quote]
I once wanted to change the world also, However, based on my limited experience, very few people who you go to with ideas, will actually realize them and make a change based upon them. Humans are very defensive in nature, and they are very wary of being sold something they don’t want. If you try to sell an idea as better or the best, MOST people will dismiss it on that fact alone, and the idea itself will never even leave an imprint in thier minds.
This is the sucess of T-Nation, this is the best site and source of information period. Yet there is no advertising, and actually we have people who are told to leave if they don’t like it, which makes it seem, untouchable to humans, which of course makes them want it even more.
As an expiriment, maybe you could try using this type of presentation to some of your classes, see how many people you get engaged in actually trying to understand the principles of your ideas. One class you tell them that in your opinion, this system would be best, and they should try to understand it because if enough people understood it, it could change the world. A mojority of them will probably be thinking, oh great here comes another soapbox speech from prof dillweed.
Then another class, you tell them that you have some great ideas about how people could live, but you doubt any of them would be able to understand it because they don’t have enough real world experience yet. Then question yourself for possibly misclassifying them and give them an option if they would like to hear about it. If enough of them pick to hear about it, which you know they will based on being challenged as “inexperienced”. You can warn them several times that if they don’t get it or don’t believe it that it’s ok because it’s really advanced stuff and it’s cutting edge and not many people really get it.
Thats just what I do if I want someone to see something in a different light. Try to shove something down someones throught, they will throw it up. Dangle it in front of them and pull it away, and they will chase that damn thing till they collapse.
V
Trade is natural, whetehr or not this extends to capitaism, well i dont know.
What is clear, that in any way that populations can gain resource, in this instance it tends to be goods or money, it will. this extends from individual selfish genes, wanting the best for the offspring. we operate in a world of money, this is the “currency” we use. With our increadible division of labour, this gives countless oppotunities for gainng the “currency”.
In the past we may have exchanged bows for axes, as bowmakers were more skilled in x place, but axe makers in y (or the materials were better), or an axe from z place was worth 3 axes from y, so there could be a charge there.
Is capitalism utopia, i doubt it. is it human nature, i think so.