Can We Finally Put this to Bed

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
His own birth certificate is not enough. He needs to also provide proof of citizenship for both of his parents dated before his birth. In order to be eligible of office, you must be a natural born citizen, not just a citizen. That means you must be born on U.S. soil, AND both parents must be citizens of the U.S. at the time of your birth.

This has been defined by congress recently, not just implied by the Constitution. I heard a rumor that Obama himself voted in favor of this definition, but I’m not positive.[/quote]

In some ways you are right in others you are not. When the Framers put that little note in the constitution they argued that they did not want anyone to lead the nations military that had duel allegiance but since they were not natural born they never defined it. in 1866 they passed the 14th Amendment which according to their wording
“1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
The Tricky word in there is Jurisdiction Thereof which would mean anyone under American laws and not anyone else. So that would mean Any One born on us soil since if born on us soil you are under us laws not matter where your parents are from. If you want to see where the Jurisdiction Thereof has been put into play look up some cases from around that time US vs Wong Kim Ark is probably the best example where the SCOUS interperted what the Jurisdiction Thereof ment.

There are tons of people that will argue and argue but most was written in 1700 & 1800 and who knows how it would have been written today if it had to be done again.

The both US citizens was voted on a few years ago in congress to let people born outside of the US to parents that are both Natural Born Citizen be able to run for POTUS. Obama was a sponsor for that bill in congress and it let people like John McCain be able to run.

22

No wonder I couldn’t find it.

23

[quote]Slayers wrote:
JayPierce wrote:
His own birth certificate is not enough. He needs to also provide proof of citizenship for both of his parents dated before his birth. In order to be eligible of office, you must be a natural born citizen, not just a citizen.

That means you must be born on U.S. soil, AND both parents must be citizens of the U.S. at the time of your birth.

This has been defined by congress recently, not just implied by the Constitution. I heard a rumor that Obama himself voted in favor of this definition, but I’m not positive.

In some ways you are right in others you are not. When the Framers put that little note in the constitution they argued that they did not want anyone to lead the nations military that had duel allegiance but since they were not natural born they never defined it.

in 1866 they passed the 14th Amendment which according to their wording
"1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The Tricky word in there is Jurisdiction Thereof which would mean anyone under American laws and not anyone else. So that would mean Any One born on us soil since if born on us soil you are under us laws not matter where your parents are from.

If you want to see where the Jurisdiction Thereof has been put into play look up some cases from around that time US vs Wong Kim Ark is probably the best example where the SCOUS interperted what the Jurisdiction Thereof ment.

There are tons of people that will argue and argue but most was written in 1700 & 1800 and who knows how it would have been written today if it had to be done again.

The both US citizens was voted on a few years ago in congress to let people born outside of the US to parents that are both Natural Born Citizen be able to run for POTUS. Obama was a sponsor for that bill in congress and it let people like John McCain be able to run. [/quote]

First off, I’m not about to get dragged into a birther’s argument. BUT…I’m a bit confused here—

technically what you wrote, Slayers, doesn’t contradict what JayPierce wrote. Looking at the text of Article 2 section 1 it clearly states that only a natural born citizen “or citizen at the time of the adoption of this Constitution” may run for POTUS.

So I don’t understand where you say Pierce is wrong with regard to what he wrote up there or how you say he is wrong in some respects. Then again, I just walked in the door from a workout so I’m not really with my thinking cap.

Also I was under the impression that permanent US Army bases are US soil and so technically part of America anyways. Or is that only embassies?

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I forgot to correct myself on that point. McCain wasn’t born on a military base, he was born in a Panamanian hospital.

The more I think about it, the more I think:

McCain’s eligibility of office was questioned… Congress got together and decided.

Obama’s eligibility is questioned… and those who question it are defamed and ridiculed by the media, but congress doesn’t seem to be interested. And the courts won’t hear the arguments for ‘lack of jurisdiction’.

If the Judicial branch doesn’t have the jurisdiction, but Congress does and they won’t do anything about it… then where does that leave us?

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I forgot to correct myself on that point. McCain wasn’t born on a military base, he was born in a Panamanian hospital.

The more I think about it, the more I think:

McCain’s eligibility of office was questioned… Congress got together and decided.

Obama’s eligibility is questioned… and those who question it are defamed and ridiculed by the media, but congress doesn’t seem to be interested. And the courts won’t hear the arguments for ‘lack of jurisdiction’.

If the Judicial branch doesn’t have the jurisdiction, but Congress does and they won’t do anything about it… then where does that leave us?[/quote]

It’s pretty simple really. Congress and the courts - just about everyone, really - are satisfied with the evidence, documentation and testimony already provided. Birther nutjobs, on the other hand, will never be satisfied with any evidence, documentation or testimony - ever.

So the best course for Obama is to simply ignore them, and watch as they spin themselves into a lather and their pointy little heads explode.

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OK guys riddle me this. Lets say Obama, as it turns out, was not born in this country. Do you say he needs to leave office, or do you want the best man for the job regardless?

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[quote]Aragorn wrote:
First off, I’m not about to get dragged into a birther’s argument. BUT…I’m a bit confused here—

technically what you wrote, Slayers, doesn’t contradict what JayPierce wrote. Looking at the text of Article 2 section 1 it clearly states that only a natural born citizen “or citizen at the time of the adoption of this Constitution” may run for POTUS.

So I don’t understand where you say Pierce is wrong with regard to what he wrote up there or how you say he is wrong in some respects. Then again, I just walked in the door from a workout so I’m not really with my thinking cap.

Also I was under the impression that permanent US Army bases are US soil and so technically part of America anyways. Or is that only embassies? [/quote]

He is wrong in some parts he said that a NBC had to be born from parents that were both NBC their selves but the only place that works is for someone no born on US soil.

Correct Article 2 section 1 says only a natural born citizen can run for POTUS but they never define what it takes to be a NBC. In 1866 congress got together and made the 14th amendment which states that ANYONE born on us soil is and NBC the only people that didn’t count at that time was Indians and anyone not under the Jursdiction Therof.

So under the 14th when Obama was born in Hawaii he was an NBC making him able to run for POTUS. Congress voted the wording in a few years ago stating that anyone born from parents that were NBC but not on US soil can still run for POTUS.

Army bases on foreign land is not really American soil it is land that American troops stay same thing with an embassies. They are known as Sovereign US property but if the host country wants to kick us out we can’t say no this is our land.

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[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
OK guys riddle me this. Lets say Obama, as it turns out, was not born in this country. Do you say he needs to leave office, or do you want the best man for the job regardless?[/quote]

He would have to leave the job but think about this when he leaves Biden takes over and who would you rather have Obama or Biden?

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[quote]Slayers wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
OK guys riddle me this. Lets say Obama, as it turns out, was not born in this country. Do you say he needs to leave office, or do you want the best man for the job regardless?

He would have to leave the job but think about this when he leaves Biden takes over and who would you rather have Obama or Biden? [/quote]

Agree with Slayers. Personally I don’t want anyone in office who was there illegally. Don’t care how smart or how right he/she is. I don’t want someone in office who flouted the founding document of the country he/she is pledged to protect. Fuck’em.

Except…Biden–I’d rather have Biden than Obama on a number of levels. The first of which is that there is no sort of worshipful media for Biden on anywhere near the same level as that of Obama, and that means that it’s easier to get tough questions asked and out. It’s the media’s job to do critical work regardless of party, and in my humble opinion Biden makes that much easier.

But all this is kind of pissing into the dark at this point anyways.

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[quote]Slayers wrote:

Army bases on foreign land is not really American soil it is land that American troops stay same thing with an embassies. They are known as Sovereign US property but if the host country wants to kick us out we can’t say no this is our land.[/quote]

Right, that’s what I meant anyways. I just misspoke.

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[quote]Slayers wrote:

So under the 14th when Obama was born in Hawaii he was an NBC making him able to run for POTUS. Congress voted the wording in a few years ago stating that anyone born from parents that were NBC but not on US soil can still run for POTUS.

[/quote]

I provided a link to that bill. It was never passed.

Here is the original definition as set by the First Congress. ‘provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States’.

I also read the McCain NBC bill again. According to that, McCain WAS born on a military base. Another link I read said he wasn’t.

32

It appears that if you want facts that are actually backed up with published links and references, instead of just parroted from Obama’s media, you have to go to a Birther site. I’ll just provide a link to the whole thing. I’ve been to many sites and read many arguments from both sides in the past few days. The folks that say he IS an NBC never seem to provide any substantiation to their claims. They just post an opinion or something they heard someone else say that sounded good.

http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaNaturalBorn.htm

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Here is the original definition as set by the First Congress. ‘provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States’.

[/quote]

The “provided” clause only applies to persons born outside of the United States, not persons born within the US.

34

[quote]Nosewater wrote:
JayPierce wrote:

Here is the original definition as set by the First Congress. ‘provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States’.

The “provided” clause only applies to persons born outside of the United States, not persons born within the US.[/quote]

Correct that clause is only persons outside of the US. The SCOUS has taken the wording of the 14th as ANYONE born on US soil that is not a diplomat or child to a diplomat is an NBC. Look up US v. Wong Kim Ark where the SCOUS pointed to the 14th Amendment saying since he was born on us soil even thou his parents are not US citizen he is a US citizen. In 2005 Congress held a hearing on trying to change part of that because all someone has to do is cross the border and have a child and that child is a US citizen and can not be kicked out.

Jay the hole NBC is kind of a cloud and comes down to who ever is doing the reading has a different interpretation of what did the Framers really mean. The said part is IF someone comes and and agrees that people born on us soil are not NBC they have to havce 2 NBC parents then there are other presidents that have been president and should not been.
Chester A. Arthur was born on US soil but his father was a British citizen when he was born. Still he ran for VPOTUS and then became POTUS after Garfield was killed.There were people back then that said he was not able to be POTUS but he was never removed from the office.