The epcic of Gilgamesh who contains a flood myth predates the one in the bible. Probably are the story of Noah borrowed from the epic of Gilgamesh. This is common knowledge.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Experiment1 wrote:
…Also, these myths existed before the bible and the similarities between say the biblical flood and the flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh can be explained by the bible simply copying and absorbing famous stories, dates, etc…
[/quote]
Incorrect.
The Genesis flood story predates all others. Wanna know how and why?
[/quote]
This should be good.[/quote]
You might need to beg.[/quote]
[quote]florelius wrote:
The epcic of Gilgamesh who contains a flood myth predates the one in the bible. Probably are the story of Noah borrowed from the epic of Gilgamesh. This is common knowledge.
[/quote]
Here is a master’s thesis comparing the epic of Gilgamesh and the Genesis flood. The link is to her conclusion:
That conclusion jumped to too many assumptions, had significant bias, and didn’t consider the possibility the two were independent of each other.
The area they both originated from dealt with destructive and unpredictable flooding.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Push, I think the puddy tat is gone.
I forget…are you the godless pagan and I the bible butcher, or vice verse?[/quote]
Can someone please explain to me how pushharder can be so involved with Christianity but then go out and have foursomes?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Push, I think the puddy tat is gone.
I forget…are you the godless pagan and I the bible butcher, or vice verse?[/quote]
Can someone please explain to me how pushharder can be so involved with Christianity but then go out and have foursomes?[/quote]
Haven’t had one in a long time.
Can someone explain to me how GotItDoneToHim can contribute so little of value here on T-Nation and still get on the site for free?[/quote]
Yeah because you’re so valuable…SMH.
I’m constantly giving you the perspective of the new generation, old timer.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Push, I think the puddy tat is gone.
I forget…are you the godless pagan and I the bible butcher, or vice verse?[/quote]
Can someone please explain to me how pushharder can be so involved with Christianity but then go out and have foursomes?[/quote]
Read the bible. Abe and Isaac passed off their wives as their sisters. Rachel was a babe but the Lord rewarded Leah with children. If you heathens want to debate the bible at least get some of the basics down pat. I’m not going to try to defend or oppose Push’s interpretation of scripture but if I was going to do so I would read the bible first so at least I could sound like I know what I’m talking about.
[quote]Experiment1 wrote:
How they existed. Specifically after all of humanity, outside of the ark, died after the biblical flood in Genesis(?).[/quote]
Genesis is old testament, which is the Jewish bible. So ask the Jews. Christianity is in the new testament.
[quote]Experiment1 wrote:
That conclusion jumped to too many assumptions, [/quote]
When discussing ancient history, there will always be assumptions. In your view, what is too many in this case?
And you have bias, as I. She states it up front, to her credit. This fact doesn’t discredit her thesis at all. You are smart enough to know this. Let’s discuss the substance in a straightforward fashion.
This is true, but I’m not sure why you bring it up now. I thought you’re contention was Genesis copied and absorbed the other.
If you have read the whole thing, then the next step of our discussion would be for you to go into detail why you think her conclusion that Genesis does not proceed from the Epic of G. is incorrect.
Sorry, I don’t understand how this is relevant. Are you saying this most general truth, means all the other variations she cites carry no weight in favor of her conclusion?
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Florelius you are a very reasonable and civil sort of man, that is much appreciated![/quote]
Glad to hear that you feel that way Aragorn.
ps. Are you a fan of JRR Tolkiens fiction considering your nick?[/quote]
Indeed I am. Extremely so. I believe I have read the trilogy at least once a year almost every year since 7th grade. More than half my life. The books are like old friends to me (indeed a view I hold of good books in general, but especially those 3). Quite frankly ranks as the best teilogy in my opinion, and my favorite series fiction author tied with Frank Herbert for his Dune series.
I chose the name because I identify with both the character’s soul and his history very closely. There was a thread eons ago in GAL about what pur screenames meant/how we picked them where I think I mentioned it in more detail. I suppose you could say almost it is almost anthemic.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Push, I think the puddy tat is gone.
I forget…are you the godless pagan and I the bible butcher, or vice verse?[/quote]
Can someone please explain to me how pushharder can be so involved with Christianity but then go out and have foursomes?[/quote]Not now. Please? For our latest clash start here. http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/christopher_hitchens_dies?id=4971674&pageNo=9
I went to school in the freaking bible belt. They tried to refuse to teach evolution for fucks sake. Half of the classes would go on about how we can relate this to god.
I was far from force fed this imaginary liberal agenda you speak of.
I’m just going with logic and verifiable information.
I did google where the flood waters went, and the answers were pretty good if you throw out all belief in scientific process. Like water coming from outside the atmosphere and being evaporated out of it by the sun. All the springs of the world having their ground water suddenly rush up. The polar Ice caps completely melting and refreezing. The most logical one was a massive tsunami, which could hold some value. I could imagine a group surviving a tsunami and thinking the whole world was flooded.
The flood myths don’t vary so much? The Gilgamesh flood was 6 days, the Chinese flood myth lasted over a freaking decade. and the Genesis flood lasted 40 days. The finnish flood myth involves no water, but blood from a hero’s gushing wound. The mayans believe in multiple floods that killed off 3 variations of humans before the gods got it right with the fourth try. That’s some wild variation, and that’s not even very many of them.
I’m interested in reading, but I would prefer a read that isn’t obviously biased in one direction, or funded by a christian research group. If you provide proof from one bias at least provide a balance with a comparable link in the other end of the spectrum.
@chen
What assumptions did she jump to? She jumped to the conclusion that the biblical flood was more historically accurate because it was more “scientifically” accurate or just better written. She assumed that because one was better written than the other, it couldn’t have been based off of it. She never even considered the possibility that the floods were based off of common events in the area, instead of both being from one specific event.
Yes she admits a bias, but that doesn’t remove bias from her conclusion. Such as completely ignoring the last possibility I suggested.
She didn’t disprove it wasn’t based off of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Christian stories often have a lot of one-ups-man ship about them. The biblical flood story would have been written afterwards in any scientifically supported timeline. This means the biblical version would come in a more advanced stage and with a familiarity of the epic flood story. This means a story could be more realistic. The god is monotheistic because the writer was monothestic. The attitude of the god changed because they were writing about a different god. The flood lasted longer to illustrate their god was more powerful.
To be continued.
I’ll bbl, gtg to work right now.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Experiment1 wrote:
…Also, these myths existed before the bible and the similarities between say the biblical flood and the flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh can be explained by the bible simply copying and absorbing famous stories, dates, etc…
[/quote]
Incorrect.
The Genesis flood story predates all others. Wanna know how and why?
[/quote]
You haven’t really backed this up yet…
Aragorn:
I used to read them every year myself, but know its further beetwen each read. I like silmarillion the best myself. ps. Cant whait for the hobbit movie to come out.
Mr Chen:
Interresting master thesis, but dont think it manage to prove that the story of Noah
is older than the one in the epic of Gilgamesh. It even mentions that the epic of Gilgamesh is written in
a language( Accadian ) far older than hebrew. The accadian culture predates the hebrew culture and are perhaps
the mother of all civilliazed semitic cultures.