Hey, did you guys hear the latest. Mexican officals said yesterday that if we do place the Guard at the border, they will sue in American Courts!
This is surreal! The aliens break into our country, and then they want to sue us for trying to stop them. That’s like a burgler breaking into your house and then suing you for having them arrested! What is going on here?
I say seal the border and throw out the illegals. Let them come, but let them come legally.
We the people get to decide!
That is the best idea I have ever heard. Flawless.
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.[/quote]
well at least we agree on something
[quote]biltritewave wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.
well at least we agree on something [/quote]
An illegal alien stole my wife’s purse and assumed her identity. We got a letter from the IRS saying we were going to be audited because my wife didn’t report the $28,000 she made at a Tyson chicken plant in Arkansas (about 1000 miles from where we lived at the time). It has been the biggest fucking hassle I’ve ever dealt with. The IRS and social security office where fairly understanding and easy to deal with. The credit people are a huge pain in the ass.
Few things would please me more than personally kicking the shit out of every one of the executives of Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc.
[quote]doogie wrote:
biltritewave wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.
well at least we agree on something
An illegal alien stole my wife’s purse and assumed her identity. We got a letter from the IRS saying we were going to be audited because my wife didn’t report the $28,000 she made at a Tyson chicken plant in Arkansas (about 1000 miles from where we lived at the time). It has been the biggest fucking hassle I’ve ever dealt with. The IRS and social security office where fairly understanding and easy to deal with. The credit people are a huge pain in the ass.
Few things would please me more than personally kicking the shit out of every one of the executives of Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. [/quote]
Cool. I’m with you.
Now, admittedly, a percentage of illegal imigrants are scumbags. I would guess it’s the same percentage as the rest of the world.
But it drives me insane to listen to Hannity, Rush, et al. focusing on the supply and not the demand.
Both sides are demagoguing this issue to get around the real root of the problem: the people that pay for their campaigns.
Again: if you dont like illegal immigration, find out the companies that are hiring them by he thousands and boycott their slave-wage-paying asses.
[quote]harris447 wrote:
doogie wrote:
biltritewave wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.
well at least we agree on something
An illegal alien stole my wife’s purse and assumed her identity. We got a letter from the IRS saying we were going to be audited because my wife didn’t report the $28,000 she made at a Tyson chicken plant in Arkansas (about 1000 miles from where we lived at the time). It has been the biggest fucking hassle I’ve ever dealt with. The IRS and social security office where fairly understanding and easy to deal with. The credit people are a huge pain in the ass.
Few things would please me more than personally kicking the shit out of every one of the executives of Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc.
Cool. I’m with you.
Now, admittedly, a percentage of illegal imigrants are scumbags. I would guess it’s the same percentage as the rest of the world.
But it drives me insane to listen to Hannity, Rush, et al. focusing on the supply and not the demand.
Both sides are demagoguing this issue to get around the real root of the problem: the people that pay for their campaigns.
Again: if you dont like illegal immigration, find out the companies that are hiring them by he thousands and boycott their slave-wage-paying asses.
[/quote]
Good points. The whole issue strikes me as demagoguery honestly. I think we should have a wall on both borders, but for legitimate security reasons (i.e. Al Qaeda), not because of hysteria over immigrants who bring a lot more to this country than they take away from it. The people calling for the mass deportation of all illegals within our borders are idiots.
I am in awe and excitement on how much we all agree on this.
Seriously. I agree too.
Considering that most of the US population probably also agrees, why didn’t Bush even address the problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants – and there’s no evidence that he is going to actually do anything about this?
Is it just me that smells the potent stench of corporate lobbies convincing him not to do it?
Maybe we need to learn from the French. Yes, the French:
"
MPs back French immigration bill
The French parliament has given strong backing to a controversial immigration bill that will make it more difficult for the unskilled to settle in France.
The bill, which offers renewable residence permits to highly-qualified newcomers from outside the EU, was passed by 367 votes to 164.
Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy says it will bring France into line with countries with selective immigration.
PROPOSED NEW RULES
The council of Christian Churches wrote to the government expressing its concern.
The new law also requires immigrants from outside the European Union to sign a contract agreeing to learn French and to respect the principles of the French Republic, and makes it more difficult for them to bring their families over to join them.
Marielou Jampolski, of the French anti-racism organisation SOS Racism, says it is completely opposed to the bill.
“At SOS Racism we are totally against that law because we think that it tries to kill every liberty and every right of the French immigrants, and I think it’s very dangerous for the country.”
Mali protest
The bill is expected to go to the Senate for final approval in June.
Wednesday’s vote came as Mr Sarkozy flew to West Africa for a two-day trip. There have been protests against the trip in Mali, the home of a large number of immigrants living in France.
More than 20 MPs say he is not welcome their country.
Last year, Mr Sarkozy’s comments that rioters in Paris suburbs - many of whom were of African origin - were “rabble” (racaille) caused outrage in immigrant communities.
Mr Sarkozy, who is the son of a Hungarian immigrant, has since praised the contribution of skilled migrants to France but insists that those who entered illegally must be sent back.
"
[quote]harris447 wrote:
Again: if you dont like illegal immigration, find out the companies that are hiring them by he thousands and boycott their slave-wage-paying asses.
[/quote]
You do both – hit the supply and the demand. We need to control our borders for national security reasons, above and beyond matters of immigration.
I’ve said before, I think that employers should be charged the equivalent of 3X yearly minimum wage for an employee for each knowing violation. You’ll need to include a knowledge standard if you’re going to impose a meaningful penalty. That, unfortunately, implies the need for a verifiable ID system and a scary government database against which to check people for legal status. Or perhaps someone can suggest another way for verification?
[quote]doogie wrote:
biltritewave wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Is there any possibility at all we stop blaming the poor people for this?
If the corporations giving these people jobs were fined/penalized in ANY WAY, the flow would dry up.
Mexicans are not coming here for any abstract reason such as ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ or any such hooey: they just want work.
Start forcing Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. to use documented workers.
well at least we agree on something
An illegal alien stole my wife’s purse and assumed her identity. We got a letter from the IRS saying we were going to be audited because my wife didn’t report the $28,000 she made at a Tyson chicken plant in Arkansas (about 1000 miles from where we lived at the time). It has been the biggest fucking hassle I’ve ever dealt with. The IRS and social security office where fairly understanding and easy to deal with. The credit people are a huge pain in the ass.
Few things would please me more than personally kicking the shit out of every one of the executives of Tyson, Perdue, ADM, etc. [/quote]
This is the one thing also that irritates me- if these folks commit a crime, and do something like what happened to you, it seems like it’s a “no fault” kind of thing, because you can’t tell who the fuck did it.
I remember reading a big article in TIME a while back about how Texans were firing on Mexicans who were running across their farms, and how sometimes their cars would be gone in the morning.
For once, I agree with the Texans…you’re only crime is missing your target.
If they want social security or healthcare, then fine. Make them legal, and tax them. It’s not fair that my ten dollars an hour really equals seven an hour after taxes, and theirs doesn’t.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Or perhaps someone can suggest another way for verification?[/quote]
Passports.
Current US Passports are hard (read: expensive) to fake and verification is possible.
Of course, that means everybody in the US would need to have a passport, but all that takes is a short trip to the Post Office.
For non-US citizens, the documents that the DHS issues to them (temp work permit or Green Card) are actually pretty secure in themselves, especially if they are accompanied by a foreign biometric passport – that can be easily verified and is now required for legal entrance to the US anyway.
Simple, fast and effective.
[quote]hspder wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Or perhaps someone can suggest another way for verification?
Passports.
Current US Passports are hard (read: expensive) to fake and verification is possible.
Of course, that means everybody in the US would need to have a passport, but all that takes is a short trip to the Post Office.
For non-US citizens, the documents that the DHS issues to them (temp work permit or Green Card) are actually pretty secure in themselves, especially if they are accompanied by a foreign biometric passport – that can be easily verified and is now required for legal entrance to the US anyway.
Simple, fast and effective.
[/quote]
It’s long been simple,fast, and effective but the same kooks who think the NSA is hiding under their couches will fight it tooth and nail. Plus the religious loons think it is the mark of the beast.
[quote]doogie wrote:
hspder wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Or perhaps someone can suggest another way for verification?
Passports.
Current US Passports are hard (read: expensive) to fake and verification is possible.
Of course, that means everybody in the US would need to have a passport, but all that takes is a short trip to the Post Office.
For non-US citizens, the documents that the DHS issues to them (temp work permit or Green Card) are actually pretty secure in themselves, especially if they are accompanied by a foreign biometric passport – that can be easily verified and is now required for legal entrance to the US anyway.
Simple, fast and effective.
It’s long been simple,fast, and effective but the same kooks who think the NSA is hiding under their couches will fight it tooth and nail. Plus the religious loons think it is the mark of the beast.
[/quote]
Think of the shit Georgia is taking because they want a voter ID.
The political opportunists will argue against any reasonable reform.
That’s good, and I agree it would work – but it would be a de facto national ID card and registry of citizens, which would send some folks into a tizzy.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
That’s good, and I agree it would work – but it would be a de facto national ID card and registry of citizens, which would send some folks into a tizzy.[/quote]
Let them go into a tizzy. It’s not like we haven’t made decisions that didn’t piss off a part of the population before…
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Good points. The whole issue strikes me as demagoguery honestly. I think we should have a wall on both borders, but for legitimate security reasons (i.e. Al Qaeda), not because of hysteria over immigrants who bring a lot more to this country than they take away from it. The people calling for the mass deportation of all illegals within our borders are idiots.[/quote]
Dude, you’re from New Hampshire. Come live in my hood… er… barrio for a while. I think you’ll change your mind.
But overall I liked what Bush said simply because it’s something. But, I agree that it’s the employers’ fault at the base level of this issue.
[quote]hspder wrote:
I am in awe and excitement on how much we all agree on this.
Seriously. I agree too.
Considering that most of the US population probably also agrees, why didn’t Bush even address the problem of companies hiring illegal immigrants – and there’s no evidence that he is going to actually do anything about this?
Is it just me that smells the potent stench of corporate lobbies convincing him not to do it?
[/quote]
you didnt listen to his speech closely enough then. One of his key points was stopping businesses from hiring illegals. The Republican passed house bill has HUGE fines in it for employeers that hire illegal immigrants.
"Third, we need to hold employers to account for the workers they hire. It is against the law to hire someone who is in this country illegally. Yet businesses often cannot verify the legal status of their employees because of the widespread problem of document fraud. Therefore, comprehensive immigration reform must include a better system for verifying documents and work eligibility. A key part of that system should be a new identification card for every legal foreign worker. This card should use biometric technology, such as digital fingerprints, to make it tamper-proof. A tamper-proof card would help us enforce the law, and leave employers with no excuse for violating it. And by making it harder for illegal immigrants to find work in our country, we would discourage people from crossing the border illegally in the first place. "
[quote]biltritewave wrote:
you didnt listen to his speech closely enough then. One of his key points was stopping businesses from hiring illegals. The Republican passed house bill has HUGE fines in it for employeers that hire illegal immigrants. [/quote]
I didn’t explain myself too well. I am sorry. My mistake. Let me try to explain myself better:
Having more secure ids for the legal immigrants is not going to solve the problem at all; currently, illegal immigrants are passing themselves as US citizens, not legal immigrants. I believe at least doogie gave an example, but I personally know of many more.
Hence my suggestion of using a US passport – rather than the extremely insecure and rather easy to forge SS cards or birth certificates – to identify US citizens.