Bush's Education Reforms Working

[Iron_Mike]

[quote]doogie wrote:
Iron Mike wrote:

A couple of weeks? No, that is not possible. Forgoing the complexities involved in whether states utilize norm-referenced vs. criterion-referenced assessments, no child can be prepared for an NCLB-mandated test in a few weeks. It would be like saying that you could prepare for the SAT in a couple of weeks … or your bench could go from 200 to 400 in a couple of weeks because all you have to do is lift everyday and add 10 lbs. each time … simple right?

You could certainly pick up some test-taking tips, but these assessments statistically represent overall student growth.

You have to be kidding. What subject area do you teach? I’ve taught Math in Texas http://ideaacademy.org/ for four years. I spend less than two weeks prepping for the test (TAKS), and 93% of my students passed and 50% scored in the 90s. Most of my students are ESL, migrant farm workers.

I’ve been a public school teacher in a highly successful inner-city school for six years, have two Masters degrees in education,

Two Masters in education? I think we’ve found the problem. I have a B.A. in political science, and I’m not certified to teach. I don’t make theoretical excuses for why my students can’t do better on the test.

[/quote]

Wow … I too have a BA in political science … and a BA in history … and am actually certified to teach. I just don’t get how having done graduate work in education could be construed as a problem?

As far as your other comments go, I am sure that you will learn, as you mature as an educator, that blanket statements such as “and they are simple tests” do not adequately represent the state of public education on a national scale.

You do realize that NCLB only mandates improvement ratios and the grades/subjects tested … each state develops its own assessments, has its own curriculum standards, benchmarks, etc. When you have reviewed the assessments used in all 50 states, then that statement might be appropriate … it would be misguided and groundless (as you have clearly stated that you have little background in the field) … but it might be appropriate.

Now, I will say what most experienced educators already know: education is not a business. What is the sense of reducing budgets as a means to improving student growth … I don’t even know where you pulled this from, because that is not what NCLB mandates (again, a little professional preparation might have been useful here). NCLB requires schools and local education agencies that continue to miss adequate yearly progess (AYP) benchmarks to earmark a percentage of funds for transportation as students will have the opportunity to attend a “passing” choice school.

So … let’s be clear:
Testing is not bad … assessment is a valuable tool in the learning process. However, the use of a single, standardized assessment as the sole arbiter of student achievement is pedagogically unsound and invalid. “Their fates should be tied to their results. That is life.” Great soundbite! But the manner in which one quantifies those “results” matters a great deal.

Do you understand the difference between student achievement and student growth and the degree of sophistication involved in the statistical analysis of each? Well, if you don’t, I wouldn’t go bragging about your lack of professional expertise and how that somehow qualifies you to pass judgment on a system that you don?t understand.

Now … the typical response here would be something like … “we don’t need all that educational jargon or double-talk” … or … “teaching isn’t brain surgery” … or … “just teach’em how to do the readin” and writin’ and they’ll pass that darn test" … or my favorite … “we don’t need none of ya damn yankee book-learnin? (this is a direct quote from a member of Congress who I met with when I was a legislative aide in college)” … blah, blah, blah. Honestly, I am too damn tired to answer these right now, so I’ll bid you good night and will check in later.

[doogie]

[quote]Iron Mike wrote:

Wow … I too have a BA in political science … and a BA in history … and am actually certified to teach. I just don’t get how having done graduate work in education could be construed as a problem? [/quote]

My graduate work was in public administration. I took all of the required education courses to become a teacher, but I never did the student teaching that is required to be certified in Texas. I don’t regret it. I’ve never met anyone who majored in education who didn’t spend 50% of their time making excuses.

[quote]
As far as your other comments go, I am sure that you will learn, as you mature as an educator, that blanket statements such as “and they are simple tests” do not adequately represent the state of public education on a national scale. [/quote]

I don’t intend to mature as an educator. I can’t bring myself to write off my students and make excuses for why I haven’t prepared them for college.

And they are simple tests. Which state do you think has a test that isn’t simple. I admit that I haven’t seen them all. Of the 20 or so that I have studied, not one couldn’t be passed by a student who was properly taught the subject matter.

You do realize that NCLB only mandates improvement ratios and the grades/subjects tested … each state develops its own assessments, has its own curriculum standards, benchmarks, etc. When you have reviewed the assessments used in all 50 states, then that statement might be appropriate … it would be misguided and groundless (as you have clearly stated that you have little background in the field) … but it might be appropriate.

I really don’t get what you are whining about here. Are you saying that your state has unrealistic expectations for your students? You do understand that, as a teacher, your students are all you need to concern yourself with, right? If you would spend more time preparing your students and less time fretting over what NCLB mandates, you might not have your panties in such a bunch.

[quote]

Now, I will say what most experienced educators already know: education is not a business. [/quote]

That is a shame. In Texas, with the success of charter schools, it soon will be a business. Students will profit.

[quote]
What is the sense of reducing budgets as a means to improving student growth … [/quote]

What is the sense of giving billions of dollars to people who look for excuses instead of solutions?

I don’t even know where you pulled this from, because that is not what NCLB mandates (again, a little professional preparation might have been useful here). NCLB requires schools and local education agencies that continue to miss adequate yearly progess (AYP) benchmarks to earmark a percentage of funds for transportation as students will have the opportunity to attend a “passing” choice school.

I’m sure you are aware that most states allocate funds on a per student basis. So if more students transfer out of the failed district, that district has less money. Didn’t your professional preparation allow you to connect those dots?

So … let’s be clear:
Testing is not bad … assessment is a valuable tool in the learning process. However, the use of a single, standardized assessment as the sole arbiter of student achievement is pedagogically unsound and invalid.[/quote]

I’ve reread what you wrote above, but I don’t see any support for this conclusion.

[quote]Do you understand the difference between student achievement and student growth and the degree of sophistication involved in the statistical analysis of each? Well, if you don’t, I wouldn’t go bragging about your lack of professional expertise and how that somehow qualifies you to pass judgment on a system that you don?t understand.

BLAH BLAH BLAH. Bottom line: Your students perform at grade level or they don’t. Last year 17% of my students entered my classroom more that 3.8 years below grade level. 82% were more than 1.5 years below grade level. They caught up. They came to school at 7:30 and they left after 5, but they caught up.

Now … the typical response here would be something like … “we don’t need all that educational jargon or double-talk” … or … “teaching isn’t brain surgery” … or … “just teach’em how to do the readin” and writin’ and they’ll pass that darn test".

Again, most of my students enter my class years below grade level, most are migrant workers, most are ESL, 96% live below the poverty level, and 92% have parents who never graduated high school. Instead of making excuses for why they can’t learn, we teach them. People like you are the problem with education. NCLB is just the first step in fixing the mess you’ve made.

[BostonBarrister]

I think many of you are arguing right past the point with regard to NCLB test standards.

You’re arguing that tests aren’t the end-all and be-all of education. Great. You’re right.

However, they aren’t meant to be either. These are MINIMUM standards folks. Minimum as in, kids need to know at least the amount to pass these tests.

Of course they need to know more, and of course good teachers will teach more, including how to analyze and process information.

But if they can’t pass these minimum-standards tests, which are truly minimum-standards tests in terms of what the kids are required to know and demonstrate mastery of, then how the heck are any of their teachers teaching them to think, or educating them on a higher level?

For a good teacher with motivated kids who aren’t already behind, these tests should be an afterthought. For a good teacher who has kids who are behind, and from bad, broken homes, that teacher is behind the 8 ball, but he just has to show improvment in terms of getting the kids up to par to these basic, minimum-standard tests. For a bad teacher, I can see why these would be sweat-inducing: actual performance metrics tend to do that.

I’m not saying standardized tests are perfect, but if you’re going to have a nation-wide performance metric and not impose nation-wide standardized curriculums, they’re one of the best measures around. If you have a better one, please, by all means, share it.

[nephorm]

I see a couple of problems here.

1. The federal government shouldn’t be setting the standards for state-run schools. States shouldn’t accept federal funding for education. People whine about states’ rights, and one of the reasons we’ve lost them is by allowing the FG to grab our state institutions in the wallet.

2. The educational system will never improve until school districts (and the teachers’ union) admit that they have some shitty teachers who should be fired. If there’s any group that needs a standards test, it’s the teachers themselves. Can’t get your class to pass? Too bad, you’re fired. Have a nice day. But the union likes to bitch and moan that teachers aren’t being paid enough, while simultaneously refusing the idea that the incompetent should be fired.

3. As an educator, I recognize that students need some sort of external assessment to test their learning. “Teaching the test” isn’t the answer, certainly. But oftentimes the pressure of exams forces students to work at a subject more, or else suffer concrete consequences. My SAT students are often more motivated than my regular students, for example.

As a personal aside, in Maryland we have what is called the Maryland Functional Writing Test. My freshman year of highschool english consisted almost entirely of preparing for that test. Whereas I had written “thesis driven” essays in the past, I was trained that the correct way to write was to start out “I am writing to tell you…” (maybe I should start out every forum post that way: “Hello, T-forumites, I am writing to tell you that I think our educational system is flawed”).

[Garrett_W]

Neophorm, I’m writing to tell you that type of writing, stating the purpose of your writing in a direct and queer fashion, pisses the shit out of me and most other people.

Teachers need tests, kids need tests. Whatever. Some kids are gonna learn and some aren’t. But they all should atleast get the oppurtunity to learn from someone who can pass a basic test. College degree or not, I think a professional exam will settle a great deal of it.

[Colombian]

The words Bush and Education jajajajajaaj that makes me laugh, those 2 words DO NOT go together.

[doogie]

[quote]nephorm wrote:

1. The federal government shouldn’t be setting the standards for state-run schools. States shouldn’t accept federal funding for education. People whine about states’ rights, and one of the reasons we’ve lost them is by allowing the FG to grab our state institutions in the wallet.
   [/quote]

I agree with this, but no politician in the world is going to run a campaign based on taking less “free” money for education. As long as you are dreaming, you might as well wish for parents who actually want to be responsible for raising their own children. If the Fed is going to provide the cash, it has a right to demand results. At least someone is demanding results.

[quote]
2) The educational system will never improve until school districts (and the teachers’ union) admit that they have some shitty teachers who should be fired. If there’s any group that needs a standards test, it’s the teachers themselves. Can’t get your class to pass? Too bad, you’re fired. Have a nice day. But the union likes to bitch and moan that teachers aren’t being paid enough, while simultaneously refusing the idea that the incompetent should be fired. [/quote]

Here in Texas (and probably in most of the South) the big attraction of unions is the liability insurance they provide. For the most part, it is only a matter of time until some parent sues you for failing their little pride and joy. I hate the idea of unions, but I see the temptation in joining one.

Also, depending on where you work (I’m very lucky here), the administration can really hamstring you. I wouldn’t want to be held responsible for my classes unless I had complete control of them. Too much class time can get chewed up with touchy, feely bullshit that you have no control over.

[quote]
3) As an educator, I recognize that students need some sort of external assessment to test their learning. “Teaching the test” isn’t the answer, certainly. But oftentimes the pressure of exams forces students to work at a subject more, or else suffer concrete consequences. My SAT students are often more motivated than my regular students, for example. [/quote]

Honestly, the key to my being able to motivate my students is my telling them that I don’t give a shit if they pass or not. I tell them from day one that I’ll bust my ass teaching them, I’ll answer any question they have, I’ll tutor on Saturdays. I let them know that they will never be able to accuse me of not giving them my all. Any help they ask for I’ll give.

In the end, though, I tell them that if Johnny passes or fails doesn’t have any effect on my life one way or the other. I’ll still get paid the same, I’ll still be sitting in the same room teaching the same stuff next year. Maybe they’ll be sitting there with me again, or maybe they won’t. Once the kids believe that I don’t give a shit about them as individuals (which of course isn’t true), they take responsibility for their own education and it’s pretty smooth sailing.

As a personal aside, in Maryland we have what is called the Maryland Functional Writing Test. My freshman year of highschool english consisted almost entirely of preparing for that test. Whereas I had written “thesis driven” essays in the past, I was trained that the correct way to write was to start out “I am writing to tell you…” (maybe I should start out every forum post that way: “Hello, T-forumites, I am writing to tell you that I think our educational system is flawed”).

I’ve seen teachers in Texas who instruct their students to begin every essay with, “Have you ever wanted/wondered/hoped/wished…?” They will post their students’ essays and you can walk by and every one begins with some stupid variation of that phrase. No shame at all.