“Reinforces my “They’re all cocksuckers” stand. I’m sure others knew about it.”
That’s not GOOD ENOUGH IRISH!!! The fact that we knew exactly what was happening. The suspicion that the nyt is releasing this to coincide with books and/or the tremendous success of the Iraqi election to do sell books/dampen the President’s achievement must not get in the way of destroying the Republicans.
Signed,
dems/nyt.
[/quote]
I could give a shit less about some damn book. I could give a shit less about anything that you, or the President, says. Why? Because your precious King George II thought he could get away with murder on this one, and he got caught.
I’ve been listening to the Conservatives on the radio today. Have you? Have you heard them? That this is a disgrace, that this is a criminal act? The only one who will defend Bush is likely to be Rush Limbaugh, but he’ll have to pull his head out of Bush’s asshole in order for anyone to hear him- might be a problem.
There is no upside for this, Jeff. This is why the Patriot Act got voted down, this is why it is morally wrong in America to do this kind of thing. Because you cannot trust the men at the top- and now regular Americans have found this out. It is horrific what this administration has pulled, and this is no different.
What’s the term in ebonics? O yea- “You be fucked”.
Have fun trumping this as a vast left wing conspiracy. There will be few takers this time.
“Honestly, are you on medication? Everything must turn into a battle of you defending the republicans at all costs no matter what type of shit hits the fan? Who gives a shit about a book being written? I hope the book does well. How does that erase the fact that our phones are being tapped? I swear, you would defend anything this administration did even if they were murdering your own children while you were typing out another cheer on this site.”
I did not defend this supposed action. I just didn’t buy it hook line and sinker, yet.
What’s the term in ebonics? O yea- “You be fucked”.
Have fun trumping this as a vast left wing conspiracy. There will be few takers this time. [/quote]
Ever read about greek history? This process of turning into a milatary state reminds me of Sparta. How everybody was a soldier and they had gazillions of slaves but were paranoid over them revolting so they always had standing soldiers everywhere
[quote]vroom wrote:
I think what is striking is that in the case of suspected terrorism, what judge would really have held back a warrant anyway?[/quote]
I am sure there a couple whack job ones that would.
I think the trick is to get rid of the bad judges rather than work around them, but I am old fashioned like that.
Have any of the respondents here actually read the information regarding the FISA, provided by Boston?
Rather than having an uninformed visceral reaction, you may want to learn if this type of surveillance is permissible in the context of national security.
I think there are some interesting points to discuss as the facts come out, but getting all lathered up that the Bush administration - oh yeah, and don’t forget the Congressional leaders that knew about this, including West Virginia Democrat Rockefeller - are inventing this surveillance out of whole cloth is a waste of time.
Two questions: can the executive do what he did? And should the executive do what he did?
Courts don’t like getting mixed up the Executive branch’s prerogative in foreign policy. Tied as it is to national security, there may not be much to complain about, except in the court of public opinion.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Whose phones are being tapped? I doubt mine is.
From the looks of it they have already uncovered a couple plots by doing this.
We must strike a good balance between our security and privacy.
I understand the fears of loss of privacy but I don’t see this as a major problem.
[/quote]
Exactly.
I don’t see what the big deal is, unless of course you are a terrorist.
It’s kinda like when a teacher or coach would start yelling at the class or team about people being late. If you ain’t ever late, they must not be talking to you. I can see why this type of law makes people uneasy but I think we should do everything we can to debunk activities supporting terror first. If that means Agent X is going to listen to me talking to granny, so be it. As stated, there needs to be a balance.
The difference between this and FISA is that there isn’t even the pretense of any type of check and balance situation when you don’t need any oversight.
I can’t understand why so many people are virtually asking for a government than can poke and pry into ever action of every citizen without even so much as a warrant.
No, of course that isn’t happening today. However, perhaps if you look back through history, or particularly at politicians of both stripes, you will notice that power is simply abused.
When oversight is removed, the potential for abuse is amplified.
When there is true evidence of such abuse, it will already be too late. Danger Will Robinson. Danger.
However, I am curious, once someone is under surveillance, how do authorities know which inbound or outbound calls, emails, faxes and smoke signals are actually going to be international ones until after they have been safely intercepted?
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
It just occurred to me that all accross america’s homes workplaces/internet forums people are getting pissed off about this. on this particular forum only jeff is defending this rainjack /hedo won’t even touch it yet. Does anybody have any doubt that our president is a bad decision maker or just stupid- stupid is as stupid does even gump got that?? Im waiting for his response when IT comes out in the papers. What a dangerous mofo for our #1 leader…he’s turning into something like leader kim jong of korea or MAO in china.
It also occured to me that i actually feel a little scared of this story. Im sure that my phone isn’t tapped b/c im not political outside of voting and this forum but im still not going to talk about politics in public now that this broke out. Horrible feeling to be even slightly scared or aprehensive about living in america while your own government is doing this 1984 crap.
BTW - I read on cnn news that the pres isn’t discussing this story , for now. He seems to give these stories explaining his idiocy at what he thinks he can do a few days so his office can craft a official response or at least i noticed this happened with the story about kidnapping that suspected european al queda guy. So, we’ll have to wait a few days for him to give a response. [/quote]
Well to be honest I have a job that takes priority over surfing the net. Typically I look for things that interest me or I have an opinion on. Don’t feel an obligation to post on every thread and on every topic just for the chatter.
I don’t think Bush is an idiot. Calling the President an idiot whether you like him or not is usually more reflective of the critic then the man. I think he makes tough decisions that he believes are corrrect. Most of the dissent is straight along party lines or political philosophy. People who take action are always criticized by those who don’t.
From a pure political standpoint if they wanted this reauthorized they should have started earlier. My personal feeling is that they have the data mining operations up and running and the shotgun approach is no longer as effectiv as the targeted methods they now have. In the end it will be modified so that they can do their job effectively.
If you are an American, who did you vote for in the last election?
I am interested in your opinion.
JeffR
[/quote]
yes, im an american citizen, are you? im hostile so i must not be one , right? After all, it seems more and more american citizens are getting more passive by the day and things like this are just shrugged off. Last election, I voted independent. Anything else i can help you with today?
Hedo, there is no one to vote for when both parties voted for the Patriot Act without even reading it, and it took 5 nearly 5 years to finally have it stall out. This is just another incident that America might brush off…although I think this might be a bit larger than Conservatives think.
Either way, voting does dick when there’s one party with two faces.
I did hear about post-election counseling. Did you participate?
“After all, it seems more and more american citizens are getting more passive by the day and things like this are just shrugged off.”
Not to worry, I’m not shrugging it off. I simply think your philosophy is dead wrong and needs to be actively confronted.
“Last election, I voted independent. Anything else i can help you with today?”
Who did you vote for? I would like to read that person’s thoughts.
Oh, johnkerry is not an independent.
JeffR
[/quote]
who said anything about john kerry? Can i ask WTF the point of your posts towards me are? Do you even know what your talking about?? have a nice night.
“Reinforces my “They’re all cocksuckers” stand. I’m sure others knew about it.”
That’s not GOOD ENOUGH IRISH!!! The fact that we knew exactly what was happening. The suspicion that the nyt is releasing this to coincide with books and/or the tremendous success of the Iraqi election to do sell books/dampen the President’s achievement must not get in the way of destroying the Republicans.
Signed,
dems/nyt.
I could give a shit less about some damn book. I could give a shit less about anything that you, or the President, says. Why? Because your precious King George II thought he could get away with murder on this one, and he got caught.
I’ve been listening to the Conservatives on the radio today. Have you? Have you heard them? That this is a disgrace, that this is a criminal act? The only one who will defend Bush is likely to be Rush Limbaugh, but he’ll have to pull his head out of Bush’s asshole in order for anyone to hear him- might be a problem.
There is no upside for this, Jeff. This is why the Patriot Act got voted down, this is why it is morally wrong in America to do this kind of thing. Because you cannot trust the men at the top- and now regular Americans have found this out. It is horrific what this administration has pulled, and this is no different.
What’s the term in ebonics? O yea- “You be fucked”.
Have fun trumping this as a vast left wing conspiracy. There will be few takers this time. [/quote]
Hmmm… maybe it’s time to re-examine VOLUNTARY funding of the government, cutting their paychecks when we don’t agree with what their doing. Seems to me that ‘someone’ brought this up on another thread and got ripped and insulted. Hmmm…
As a small l-libertarian I am pretty much reflexively against this type of stuff. And the Executive Order power of the President pisses me off to no end, I think it is a much abused tool.
So for the record, I do not agree with this policy. But I can see how timeliness is of utmost importance when enemy operatives have been captured. Some of these guys have phones, laptops, etc. that contain detailed info that includes telephone numbers. In such a situation I think it is perfectly reasonable for the those numbers to be traced and monitored as soon as possible, ESPECIALLY if they include numbers in the United States.
If it is true that the Office of Intelligence Policy and Review is not nimble enough to review requests in a timely manner, then we have a problem.
I would hope that there would be a way to accelerate the review process, but in the post-911 world I can easily see how that step was passed over in favor of a simple Executive Order.
The government, especially the Executive and agencies like the NSA, were smarting after their failure to prevent 911 and leaned towards safety over liberty, a move that governments tend to make most of the time.
It’s good that the issue is being exposed to the light of day I think, but goddamn if the post 911 world isn’t constantly causing me to re-examine my beliefs.