If you really think about it, the extreme ends of both sides say the EXACT same thing with just name and parties reversed.
The Party is going to take over this country and take away all our freedoms! Unless us [y’s] get together and DEMAND THAT THE STOP VIOLATING THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS.
[x or y] are the only hope for America.
[x or y] must make a stand now, before it is to late.
The one thing that I am very upset about regarding President Bush is the Patriot Act. I have written about it on other threads. And if any of you have read Patriot Act II, well that would send a chill up your spine.
Hey look at all the liberals criticizing their guys…oh that’s right none have.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
here is a challenge, i want the leftists and right wingers who post here all the time(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, LOL) to come up with three things, that their party/side/ideological group etc got WRONG.
if you cant do that, then IMHO you are brainwashed, and really need to be ignored from here on out.
[/quote]
I’ll bite:
Defining torture down into irrelevancy, then fighting McCain tooth and nail when he attempted to save the military from this dishonor.
Not increasing the size of the Army or Marine Corps, despite the fact that we’re understrength in both Iraq and Afghanistan, retention problems are getting worse, and nation-building may be hard to avoid in the future.
The largest discretionary domestic spending increase since LBJ.
I could go on, but that’s the worst of the worst.
I agree, Zeb.
I am not surprised that we haven’t seen anything from the pox/harris/bradley/ron33 cabal.
You watch, if they respond, they’ll twist their “criticism” into something that really isn’t criticism of their party.
Something along the lines of: “the democrats should have gone after halliburton more aggressively.”
To the guys who keep saying that “the parties are exactly the same,” save your breath. This MAY have been true during a few stretches in the 1970’s.
It is certainly not the case now.
JeffR
[quote]JeffR wrote:
I agree, Zeb.
I am not surprised that we haven’t seen anything from the pox/harris/bradley/ron33 cabal.
You watch, if they respond, they’ll twist their “criticism” into something that really isn’t criticism of their party.
Something along the lines of: “the democrats should have gone after halliburton more aggressively.”
To the guys who keep saying that “the parties are exactly the same,” save your breath. This MAY have been true during a few stretches in the 1970’s.
It is certainly not the case now.
JeffR
[/quote]
though i agree that the lefts silence here is very telling about their character and agenda, i will also have to say that some of your “criticisms” are too not really criticisms either.
me? wel, this is a tough one as i consider myself a moderate or “independent”, whatever the hell that means, but i lean more conservative than liberal, so i will go after the republicans here.
2.bushwhacking john mccain in the 2000 election. he would have been a much better president, but because of name recognition, and fundraising capabilites, they (the GOP) never gave him a chance.
Off the top of my head:
As a subpoint to this: not attacking special-interest spending and legislation – sugar subsidies, ethanol requirements, etc.
Not addressing Social Security and Medicare with comprehensive reform – I blame Congress for its lack of a spine, and the President for not pursuing it more forcefully and allowing the issue to be eclipsed.
The creation of the Homeland Security Department – we did not need another layer of bureaucracy. Subpoint - the lack of creation of a domestic counterintelligence agency like MI-6.
Not pushing for reform of the tort system – specifically asbestos is a problem, but the whole system needs to be reformed.
The administration, for not spending nearly enough effort making sure that the lower levels of the executive agencies are following the administration’s policies, versus the previous administrations’ (for example: look at the lawsuits by the EPA against companies that were complying with new standards - the administration should have forced the EPA to drop the old suits as moot).
heavythrower wrote:
“though i agree that the lefts silence here is very telling about their character and agenda, i will also have to say that some of your “criticisms” are too not really criticisms either.”
I disagree with you.
I’m not sure what else you want.
I’m saying quite clearly that Bush has screwed up a golden opportunity by not utilizing the press. I’m telling you that the Repulican leadership failed to take a strong stance. Finally, the Administration is NOT using the equivalent of the nixon tapes to bolster his foreign policy assertions and secure a better legacy.
I guess you’ll have to explain how these comments aren’t criticism.
Oh, the silence you hear on the left is why they continue to lose election after election.
They do not think that their party has made fundamental errors.
JeffR
The left hasn’t had anyone in power for a while, so clear “screwups” can be harder to identify.
I’m surprised nobody jumped on this one, but Clinton screwed up majorly and created a political flaw that stuck to all democrats. Way to go Bill!
In line with Jerffy’s weak criticisms, the democrats failed to counter the bullshit negative criticisms put forth during the last election – letting the swift boat hacks score huge political points.
In general, allowing either the fringe elements to define the stance of the party or allowing the republicans to cast the image that the fringe elements of the party are defining the stance.
Allowing themselves to get railroaded in patriotic ferver after 9/11 and pre-authorizing Bush to do whatever the hell he wanted with Iraq, instead of acting responsibly.
Finally, I’m not sure this thread is getting much play, it’s way off topic and there is nothing new in the impeachment world… so why bother looking in here anyway?
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I agree, Zeb.
I am not surprised that we haven’t seen anything from the pox/harris/bradley/ron33 cabal.
You watch, if they respond, they’ll twist their “criticism” into something that really isn’t criticism of their party.
Something along the lines of: “the democrats should have gone after halliburton more aggressively.”
To the guys who keep saying that “the parties are exactly the same,” save your breath. This MAY have been true during a few stretches in the 1970’s.
It is certainly not the case now.
JeffR
though i agree that the lefts silence here is very telling about their character and agenda, i will also have to say that some of your “criticisms” are too not really criticisms either.
me? wel, this is a tough one as i consider myself a moderate or “independent”, whatever the hell that means, but i lean more conservative than liberal, so i will go after the republicans here.
2.bushwhacking john mccain in the 2000 election. he would have been a much better president, but because of name recognition, and fundraising capabilites, they (the GOP) never gave him a chance.
[/quote]I agree with Heavy’s points,I think the last Repub. that realized all walks of life had to do well for the country as a whole was Tricky Dicky + he was pretty strong on his foreign affairs.reagan,bush 1&2 seemed like they tried to put the fuck to the working people of this country.When MCcain ran against bush and his camp tried to de value & bring into question his POW statis i thought what a P.O.S…Kerry gave up to fast ,before the votes were sorted in my state as if he was just a pawn in their game.Iliked Mc cain out of all the participants in the last 2 elections ,but now he seems to be trying to suck into the party to hard.I dont really like Repubs ,because they all claim their not into big gov’t but in my neck of the woods they are the first people to stick their nose in everyone else business and try to make new rules ,rezone and change the way people have been doing things for yrs.call cops on people etc.And they are the first to try and screw some body generally.Also in my state they are not for workers rights union or non,they are for big business.
Its hard to say what they went about doing wrong- they have no power. So the thing I can blame them for mostly is not having that power.
Having no spine to stand up for what Democrats traditionally have stood for, including the fact that they should have stood together against the Patriot Act.
Standing against what Bush says just because he’s Bush. I fuckin hate him, but the ideas about legalizing immigrants and making it easier to attain citizenship are good ones, in my opinion. There are few things that I agree with him about, but this is one.
Not countering the Republican propaganda machine that has taken over, or at least, not starting one of their own.
At the base, they are the same party, both are run by big business and special interest groups. The Democrats base idealogy makes them guilty of betraying their own values. They should make much more of a point to oppose corporations having so much leeway in pretty much buying lawmakers and setting laws.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Standing against what Bush says just because he’s Bush. I fuckin hate him…[/quote]
It’s odd how the democrats critique their own people…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
JeffR wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
“here is a challenge, i want the leftists and right wingers who post here all the time(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, LOL) to come up with three things, that their party/side/ideological group etc got WRONG.”
I agree that the media are a bunch of hostile, back-stabbing, whining, slobbering, glory hounds, but W. could play them like a fiddle. He has allowed them to drive the agenda on occassion.
It was time to go nuclear!!! It has only been postponed. Frist’s White House chances have gone up in smoke.
These are the KEY to W’s legacy. They are proving to the world most (if not all) of W’s key assertions going into the Iraqi War.
We’ve seen that W. wants them released!!!
WHAT IS THE FREAKIN’ HOLDUP!!!
JeffR
Add to this the Republicans failure to get spending under control.[/quote]
Is it true that republicans are ignoring the debt because they believe the rapture is coming?
I heard GWB refused to give his opinion on this.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Because there is so very much hate coming from the left.
The hate is equal from both ends of the spectrum.
As you can see, George II really united the country here.
in all fairness irish, bush may not be helping things, but has the DNC done any better??? lets get real here and both sides need to start tonning back the knee jerk responses, rhetoric and talking points.
here is a challenge, i want the leftists and right wingers who post here all the time(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, LOL) to come up with three things, that their party/side/ideological group etc got WRONG.
if you cant do that, then IMHO you are brainwashed, and really need to be ignored from here on out.
not trying to offend anybody, just want to try to take these threads in a little bit of a differnet direction. heck, maybe that should be the topic of another thread…
As you can see, George II really united the country here.
[/quote]
Senator Hillary:
running for president
trying to ban violent videogames
bodyguards not letting me in my bank
[quote]ron33 wrote:
heavythrower wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I agree, Zeb.
I am not surprised that we haven’t seen anything from the pox/harris/bradley/ron33 cabal.
You watch, if they respond, they’ll twist their “criticism” into something that really isn’t criticism of their party.
Something along the lines of: “the democrats should have gone after halliburton more aggressively.”
To the guys who keep saying that “the parties are exactly the same,” save your breath. This MAY have been true during a few stretches in the 1970’s.
It is certainly not the case now.
JeffR
though i agree that the lefts silence here is very telling about their character and agenda, i will also have to say that some of your “criticisms” are too not really criticisms either.
me? wel, this is a tough one as i consider myself a moderate or “independent”, whatever the hell that means, but i lean more conservative than liberal, so i will go after the republicans here.
2.bushwhacking john mccain in the 2000 election. he would have been a much better president, but because of name recognition, and fundraising capabilites, they (the GOP) never gave him a chance.
but lets face it, they had no plan on how to keep the peace once they got in there. and also, we are very undermaned there, and he is trying to fight a politically correct war, basically letting our soldiers sit there and be targets for snipers and suicide bombers, while trying to appease the media and the left. makes me sick.
I agree with Heavy’s points,I think the last Repub. that realized all walks of life had to do well for the country as a whole was Tricky Dicky + he was pretty strong on his foreign affairs.reagan,bush 1&2 seemed like they tried to put the fuck to the working people of this country.When MCcain ran against bush and his camp tried to de value & bring into question his POW statis i thought what a P.O.S…
Kerry gave up to fast ,before the votes were sorted in my state as if he was just a pawn in their game.Iliked Mc cain out of all the participants in the last 2 elections ,but now he seems to be trying to suck into the party to hard.I dont really like Repubs ,because they all claim their not into big gov’t but in my neck of the woods they are the first people to stick their nose in everyone else business and try to make new rules ,rezone and change the way people have been doing things for yrs.call cops on people etc.And they are the first to try and screw some body generally.Also in my state they are not for workers rights union or non,they are for big business.
[/quote]
yeah, i forgot about how the republicans in an effort to suck the dick of the religious right voter base, will often put its nose into my personal life a little too much.
still though, in response to vroom, who i thought was canadian(correct me if i am wrong, and if he is, what the hell does he have to say about american politics anyhoo ;)), that the dems have significant power, despite being out of the white house and a minority in congress. so that is a cop-out.
reminds me when i went to marriage counciling with my now EX wife, when we were supposedly admiting to things we did wrong in the marriage, after i, like and idiot, was honest and aired my dirty laundry, her only criticism of herself was that she was not strong enough of a woman to stop all of my fuck-ups, LOL
My critique,
The budget. Spending needs to get tightned up. No matter what we do, until entitlment spending is controlled the budget will not keep pace with revenues. I’m not saying eliminate them but we need to get value for our money.
Iraq. Although I agree in general with the rapid and mobile concept of military assault we should have went in harder and heavier. The insurgency is a reaction to our kindness more then anything. They have no fear of us anymore. People would have been safer under martial law from the beginning. Fear is what controls a defeated enemy, not kindness. Kindness is the reward for good behavior. We’ll see in Iran.
Iran and our psuedo allies in Europe. I’m glad that Bush finally flushed out the Europeans as allies. They aren’t. If it is not self serving count them out. Reliable ones have been identified such as Poland. However, why are we still playing around with Iran. We should state our position, state the reality of what will happen if they use a weapon and set a deadline to give up the program. They don’t set the terms. It is clear the Iranians played the europeans. The Iranians bragged about it. We shouldn’t let the same happen to the US.
Bush acts like the Constitution is a pain in the ass, just an outdated bunch of laws, instead of the very thing we are fighting to defend, when we talk about defending America.
Yeah, I’m Canadian. Don’t make me come down there with a rack of back bacon and a bottle of maple syrup!!!
heavy,
Wanted to point out that the dems cannot criticize their own in any meaningful way.
They think losing is an accident. No need to reform or open their minds to new ideas.
Hope it is crystal clear that there is a world of difference between the parties and the partisans.
JeffR
42% of Americans think the president should be censured.
35% of Americans approve of the job Bush is doing as president. So the censure resolution is more popular with Americans than the president is.
There is a much better legal basis for impeaching George W. Bush, than there was for impeaching Bill Clinton… if the itty bitty details like that matter to you, at all.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
I agree, Zeb.
I am not surprised that we haven’t seen anything from the pox/harris/bradley/ron33 cabal.
You watch, if they respond, they’ll twist their “criticism” into something that really isn’t criticism of their party.
Something along the lines of: “the democrats should have gone after halliburton more aggressively.”
To the guys who keep saying that “the parties are exactly the same,” save your breath. This MAY have been true during a few stretches in the 1970’s.
It is certainly not the case now.
JeffR
[/quote]
Y’know, I usually don’t respond to you, Jeffy because yo’re like the village idiot’s slightly less-well-liked cousin…but:
The Democrats right now have no leader. Dean is no good for them because, much like the leadership of PETA (and I’m only using them as an example, not endorsing those granolafuckers), he manages to make principles that might be appealling to a great many disagreeable by means of his argument style.
The Dems also seem hell-bent on running Hillary for president in 2008. I think this is an awful idea. Too many people have an absolutely irrational hatred of her. I really don’t understand what it is with the right, but they seem to be fixated with the woman.
As for the usual bullshit about the Dems having “no new ideas”…there is merit there, but I will put forth the idea the No Idea is far far better than Bad Ideas, which this administration has in spades.