[quote]Lumpy wrote:
Bush looking immature and unpresidential, in the split screen that most viewers saw.
David Letterman had a good joke tonight…
Bush isn’t going to do any more debates - his Dad got him out of it.[/quote]
As pointless as usual. Good to have you back Lumpa…
[quote]JeffR wrote:
I just read that W. spent the debate day comforting hurricane survivors in Florida. He was cheering them up and there are pictures of him hugging them.
May not have helped him in the debate, but, he was being the President.
While Kerry was furiously buffing off his fake-bake, and writhing around with his snake-like handlers, W. was busy expressing his compassion to Americans.[/quote]
Someone sounds a bit like a sore loser!
[quote]
Democrats can obsess over “um’s” and “oh’s.” Maybe they will make a video of W’s reactions and body language.
I’ll stick with the straight shooter.
[/quote] Sue me, I like smart presidents!
[quote]
Hey RSU, care to take Zeb up on his challenge? Kerry is fantastic!!! What a debater!!! He has had “one consistent position on Iraq!!!” [/quote]Back on this JeffR? You must not have gotten the TPS reports – I have declared the challenge over with.
Never said it.
Now THIS is true. I, personally, am reenergized about this campaign and I think Kerry made a very good turn in the very right direction last night.
[quote]donjaymz wrote:
I think you need to do both; Support American products and seek change in the administration. How far does outsourcing go? Don’t you think some protection is necessary? We defend our borders, why not our standard of living? Would you be OK with giving up your job to someone in china or india? Would you accept $7/hr? I am not trying to be hostile towards you, but I just want to know how you feel about the whole thing. How will you feel when your job is sent overseas? Will you be OK with a job at McDonald’s?
Buy American? Absolutely, when you can. Truth be told I do own some stuff that is made overseas. Does that mean I can’t complain about not being able to get a job in software due to the fact that they just aren’t there? I don’t think so. Hypocrite? aren’t we all to some extent? Just how “global” is acceptable?
[/quote]
I’m a free market guy all the way - no trade barriers would be ideal. That’s not going to happen, but I think Bush will get us much closer to to free trade than Kerry will.
I think it is very closed minded to think that we have a responsibility to preserve a way of life. To preserve something suggests that you keep it the same - no change. That’s what has happened in the EU, and Russia before that.
I’m self-employed. If my job goes overseas, that tells me 2 things. I’m not doing my job right and I’ve priced myself out of the market.
I have little or no sympathy for those that don’t own the balls to make a life for themselves. Is that harsh? Your damn right it is. That’s life. I don’t think anyone should expect a paycheck simply because they have a degree. If your field gets shipped overseas - adapt. There are too many people with there hands stuck out expecting to have money fall in their palms just because they have a degree, or have a union card. It won’t happen - at least not for long.
I deliverd pizzas at night while going to school full-time - with two kids and a wife that chose to stay home and be a mom instead of putting our kids in daycare.
Would I accept $7.00/hr? I would have killed for that much 8 years ago. The whimpers of those too lazy to fight for their place in the world ring hollow to me.
Kerry calls me one of the evil rich people - that I don’t deserve the tax cut Bush gave me. He’s wrong. I’ve earned every goddamn thing I have - including the tax cut.
The immediate post-debate polls show Kerry with a slight lead in percentage of people who feel he “won” the debate.
http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/
Of course, the margin of error on these types of polls is always big, and the results largely objective. Oh, and these polls were specifically about who won the debate, not who people were going to vote for.
RSU is “reenergized!” That means you think Kerry is going to win now, right kid? Well do you?
RSU: “I have declared the challenge over with.” Whahahaha
Well, I have declared it back on the table since you continue to act like a first rate child!
Oh COME ON PEOPLE!!! How can anyone who watched that debate think that Bush did good? Kerry soundly handed him his ass! Bush looked whiney, defensive, and pathetic. His voice even started to sound like a defensive kid trying to justify to his dad why its okay that he just wrecked his car.
I loved how Kerry brought up the quote from his dad’s book about the reason he didn’t drive all the way into Bagdad the first time. Bush just looked ashen.
I actually kind of felt sorry for Bush. He is trying to defeat his opponents with stupidity and repetition. When in doubt, say “wrong war wrong time wrong place… how can you lead the troops when you send them mixed messages?” How many times did he say that? Why did he say it so often? Because he couldn’t actually answer ANY questions with intelligence. He fell back on his stump-speech rhetoric which doesn’t work in a debate where you are supposed to articulately defend your position.
Kerry laid out his plan far better than Bush ever has. I don’t know why people keep saying he doesn’t have a plan. Especially if you consider the fact that Bush never had an exit strategy from Iraq and he got us into this war. Bush knows who lost that match. He was out manned from the start. He was in the wrong debate, wrong time, wrong place!
donjaymz,
“We defend our borders, why not our standard of living?”
Outsourcing does - why else would we do it? Just for kicks?
Companies go to where labor is cheaper - that makes cheaper goods and services for sale. Guess who that benefits the most: people who live paycheck to paycheck and shop at Wal-Mart. Keeping stuff on the cheap helps protect our standard of living.
Oh, and who was crying when we were ‘insourcing’ jobs from Germany in Alabama, when BMW decided to manufacture some cars in the states and there were auto manufacturing jobs aplenty in the Deep South?
Not a word. When the principle of free trade benefits us, we smile, fat and happy. When it hurts us, it’s suddenly industrial injustice.
So pick a side - if we keep manufacturing here under higher labor costs, Joe Sixpack is going to have to deal with the high prices. That’s less money to sock away in savings, less money for his kids’ 529 plan, less money for health insurance.
Now, I don’t think we should incentivize or disincentivize outsourcing. I’d like to see a more neutral tax policy in this issue.
Bush is a free trader, with the exception of a few political steel-tariff policies. Clinton was a huge free-trader. Labor movement over borders is a free-trade phenomenon set in motion years ago.
As for Keynesian method - try deficit spending to get out of a recession.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
donjaymz,
“We defend our borders, why not our standard of living?”
Outsourcing does - why else would we do it? Just for kicks?
Companies go to where labor is cheaper - that makes cheaper goods and services for sale. Guess who that benefits the most: people who live paycheck to paycheck and shop at Wal-Mart. Keeping stuff on the cheap helps protect our standard of living.
Oh, and who was crying when we were ‘insourcing’ jobs from Germany in Alabama, when BMW decided to manufacture some cars in the states and there were auto manufacturing jobs aplenty in the Deep South?
Not a word. When the principle of free trade benefits us, we smile, fat and happy. When it hurts us, it’s suddenly industrial injustice.
So pick a side - if we keep manufacturing here under higher labor costs, Joe Sixpack is going to have to deal with the high prices. That’s less money to sock away in savings, less money for his kids’ 529 plan, less money for health insurance.
Now, I don’t think we should incentivize or disincentivize outsourcing. I’d like to see a more neutral tax policy in this issue.
Bush is a free trader, with the exception of a few political steel-tariff policies. Clinton was a huge free-trader. Labor movement over borders is a free-trade phenomenon set in motion years ago.
As for Keynesian method - try deficit spending to get out of a recession.
[/quote]
hmmmm…I guess I should stop complaining and move to India. That’s where the jobs are. Does outsourcing defend the standard of living of those whose jobs are moved overseas? The engineers and those in financial services? I am not talking about outsourcing manufacturing. I am talking about outsourcing white collar jobs…white collar “labor” overseas.
I have to ask you the same question, will you be OK with $7/hr? How far should it go? If this happened to you would you see it as industrial injustice? I see a lot of people losing sight of the big picture when this happens to them.
You talk about Joe six pack, how about Joe C++? The guy who has an M.S. in computer engineering who can’t find a job in his field. The same guy who can’t afford medical and dental insurance. The same guy who has to start paying back his school loans with his low wage job. The same guy who went through years of college only to see that Joe six-pack makes more money. From where I see it, Joe six-pack is doing just fine.
[quote]donjaymz wrote:
I am not talking about outsourcing manufacturing. I am talking about outsourcing white collar jobs…white collar “labor” overseas.
I have to ask you the same question, will you be OK with $7/hr? How far should it go? If this happened to you would you see it as industrial injustice? I see a lot of people losing sight of the big picture when this happens to them.
You talk about Joe six pack, how about Joe C++? The guy who has an M.S. in computer engineering who can’t find a job in his field. The same guy who can’t afford medical and dental insurance. The same guy who has to start paying back his school loans with his low wage job. The same guy who went through years of college only to see that Joe six-pack makes more money. From where I see it, Joe six-pack is doing just fine.[/quote]
I’ll say it one more time - just because you hold a degree in a given field does not entitle you to jack-shit. Is that fair? Nope. But that’s life.
Holding a Masters in any field suggests that you are more than capable of learning, that you are able to grasp deeper concepts than most. Why are you bitching and moaning about your field being sent overseas? You are limiting yourself in thinking that you are only capable of C++. Get off your ass and do something besides hoping that Kerry will wave his magic wand and get your job back for you.
This is America - people are lined up around the block to get in here and live the dream. If things were so bad here, why would half of Asia give their left nut to get over here and start up a donut shop?
donjaymz wrote:
I think you need to do both; Support American products and seek change in the administration. How far does outsourcing go? Don’t you think some protection is necessary? We defend our borders, why not our standard of living? Would you be OK with giving up your job to someone in china or india? Would you accept $7/hr? I am not trying to be hostile towards you, but I just want to know how you feel about the whole thing. How will you feel when your job is sent overseas? Will you be OK with a job at McDonald’s?
Buy American? Absolutely, when you can. Truth be told I do own some stuff that is made overseas. Does that mean I can’t complain about not being able to get a job in software due to the fact that they just aren’t there? I don’t think so. Hypocrite? aren’t we all to some extent? Just how “global” is acceptable?
I’m a free market guy all the way - no trade barriers would be ideal. That’s not going to happen, but I think Bush will get us much closer to to free trade than Kerry will.
I think it is very closed minded to think that we have a responsibility to preserve a way of life. To preserve something suggests that you keep it the same - no change. That’s what has happened in the EU, and Russia before that.
I’m self-employed. If my job goes overseas, that tells me 2 things. I’m not doing my job right and I’ve priced myself out of the market.
I have little or no sympathy for those that don’t own the balls to make a life for themselves. Is that harsh? Your damn right it is. That’s life. I don’t think anyone should expect a paycheck simply because they have a degree. If your field gets shipped overseas - adapt. There are too many people with there hands stuck out expecting to have money fall in their palms just because they have a degree, or have a union card. It won’t happen - at least not for long.
I deliverd pizzas at night while going to school full-time - with two kids and a wife that chose to stay home and be a mom instead of putting our kids in daycare.
Would I accept $7.00/hr? I would have killed for that much 8 years ago. The whimpers of those too lazy to fight for their place in the world ring hollow to me.
I can’t sympathize with those who are unemployed and expect a career to be given to them either. I work hard for what I have now as always…and I fight to get ahead. I fight for change and for an opportunity that isnt there right now. I know of many companies who are realizing that American software engineers are worth the higher price, becuase the quality isnt there overseas. The work is starting to come back, so what is wrong with jumpstarting it? What is wrong with forcing change? Fight? you bet. Adapt? of course. Accept? never!
Kerry calls me one of the evil rich people - that I don’t deserve the tax cut Bush gave me. He’s wrong. I’ve earned every goddamn thing I have - including the tax cut.
Well, the way things are going I think you can’t help but to price yourself out of the market down the road. I see you are an accountant, so you are right behind the engineers. Would you accept $7/hr now?
“I have little or no sympathy for those that don’t own the balls to make a life for themselves. Is that harsh? Your damn right it is. That’s life. I don’t think anyone should expect a paycheck simply because they have a degree. If your field gets shipped overseas - adapt.”
I have no sympathy for those who think a degree entitles them to a job either. I think my work ethic, expertise, intelligence, and resourcefullness mean that I will always be employed as I am now. adpat? Well, of course.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Kerry admitted he wanted to double our military force and send them to all the countries that needed help like Africa.
Hahahahah. Did you even watch the debate?[/quote]
Yes I did, did u? if you saw he said that, you would of known
donjatmz,
“hmmmm…I guess I should stop complaining and move to India. That’s where the jobs are. Does outsourcing defend the standard of living of those whose jobs are moved overseas?”
So, you really only care about outsourcing of a particular sector? Was outsourcing fine when it was low-skilled factory work, but now that someone in a different country with an advanced degree takes a job (ostensibly a good thing, as we want to end world poverty), it’s unfair?
“The engineers and those in financial services? I am not talking about outsourcing manufacturing. I am talking about outsourcing white collar jobs…white collar “labor” overseas.”
See above.
“I have to ask you the same question, will you be OK with $7/hr? How far should it go? If this happened to you would you see it as industrial injustice?”
$7 an hour? If that’s the best I could do, sure. I used to work construction - hard, filthy work to pay bills while I got a liberal arts education. If I were in the $7 pickle, I’d read the writing on the wall and invest in myself.
Look at the number of people who have jobs in America because a company from another country wanted to bring their capital to the US (Deutsche Bank, BMW, BP, etc.). In the spirit of fairness, should we ship these jobs back?
“I see a lot of people losing sight of the big picture when this happens to them.”
No doubt I’d be pissed. But the big picture suggests most people benefit from the free trade principles - better cheaper stuff, having a job due to foreign direct investment - and if not, consider an industry that can’t be outsourced.
“You talk about Joe six pack, how about Joe C++? The guy who has an M.S. in computer engineering who can’t find a job in his field.”
You honestly want me to be more concerned about an educated technology specialist over the poor sap who lost his factory job? Maybe moving to India is out of the question, but another state wouldn’t be.
“The same guy who can’t afford medical and dental insurance. The same guy who has to start paying back his school loans with his low wage job. The same guy who went through years of college only to see that Joe six-pack makes more money. From where I see it, Joe six-pack is doing just fine.”
If Joe-Sixpack makes more money, go get a job where Joe Sixpack works. You are not entitled to a job. I know someone who majored in Art History. You think she started whining when no Art Historian jobs popped up after graduation? No, she was a realist - she got a job at a bank.
Now, I’m not the kind of guy that thinks we’re nothing but ‘homo economicus’ - there’s much more to an education and life than skills training and ‘getting and spending’. But the reality is, if you want a job, find out what the jobs are.
If the C++ guy can’t find work, tell him to go get a Master’s in Accounting. A guy with a systems and accounting background can print his own money.
And survey this:
Check out Occupational Outlook. If you don’t see a rosy picture for a job you want, like blacksmithing or rock group roadie, consider another choice.
Hey Roy!!!
I’ve missed you. Everything go ok in the padded room? How’s Algore? You guys get everything worked out?
Kerry is a polished debater. However, he had plenty of bumbles and stumbles himself. Remember, this guy has been blowing hot air (and not sponsoring legislation or attending meetings) for twenty years. He’s had a lot of practice making noise.
What plans are you refering to? How exactly did your hero Kerry expect to attract international support in Iraq? Oh, he’s not George Bush, that’s how it will happen.
Didn’t France just announce no troops with or without Kerry. Care to wager on other countries that ran and hid?
Oh, by the way, pointing fingers is not leadership and it is certainly not a plan.
Again, I’m bored with Kerry.
Just a little change of subject here. W. is EXACTLY right about rejecting bilaterality on the Korean Peninsula. He is also exactly right about using diplomacy to influence Iran. He understands deterrance. I will be watching developments in these two areas with intense interest over the next four years. It will be interesting to see the effect of W’s reelection in these two areas.
JeffR
Vegita: Maybe conservatives give more money to charity because 1: the rich elite have more money and 2: they thus need the tax breaks.
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Vegita: Maybe conservatives give more money to charity because 1: the rich elite have more money and 2: they thus need the tax breaks. [/quote]
Since time immemorial and pre-industrial, ‘greed’ has been the accusation hurled at the rich by the concrete-bound illiterates who were unable to conceive of the source of wealth or of the motivation of those who produce it.
– Ayn Rand
Class warfare/envy is a coward’s argument.