Brainwashing 101

[vroom]

Doogie,

The movie is a blatant hatchet job. It’s purpose is to “show” that Republicans have it tough in universities and that something is wrong because of two things…

a) those institutions are liberal.
b) those institutions are hypocritical.

So, the entire point of the movie is to provide ammunition to those who wish for a more conservative teaching. The problem is, schools are supposed to teach you shit, not just tell you what you want to hear.

For chrissakes, I have to read Marx’s communist manifesto for a sociology course I’m taking. Let me tell you, Marx wasn’t a Republican.

I’m going to have to critique this piece and discuss it. I am not being told that communism is good, but Marx and Engels played a large role in history, that manifesto was perhaps the most impactful political document ever.

You can’t learn the subject, realistically, and not deal with such subject matter.

Boo. Hiss. Evil schools with biased teachings.

It’s moronic.

[hspder]

[quote]bigscarymonster wrote:
It’s an ongoing battle that has to be done tactfully. I don’t transfer out because the professors are amazing and I am at one of the better schools in the country. I wasn’t really trying to complain about it but more show that it is in fact true that institutions of higher learning are often sideing with liberals.[/quote]

Nobody is arguing that most professors are liberals. That is a given, not only in the US but all over the World. All surveys point in that direction – and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that in itself.

The argument is if they try to “brainwash” the students by imposing their views on them – or not. THAT would be a problem if it were true.

Your first post made it sound you felt there was a problem. But if you feel that the professors are amazing and it is one of the better schools in the country, it becomes clear you do not really feel there is a problem there.

Either there is a problem and you fight it or there isn’t and you don’t need to do anything. There’s no middle ground here.

[hspder]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Germany does (or did) split them completely. So if Germany hands a standardized test to the brainiac school they will do much better than the American school that has the brainiacs, the average kids, the Vo-Tech kids, the burnouts and the mentally handicapped that are being “mainstreamed”.[/quote]

I think you didn’t understand my point, so let me ask it another way:

Do you really think that when people mention that we do very poorly in Math compared to the other countries, they are comparing our SATs to whatever standardized college-entrance exams MIGHT exist in those countries (which not all do)?

For the surveys I’m talking about, they have specific tests, designed for this purpose, identical for all countries, to a random but representative sample of the population of 18 year olds. REPRESENTATIVE. That means they also test the skills of non-brainiac Germans that didn’t go to the Gymnasium and are not going into college.

Either way, I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. Are you trying to say our kids are NOT worse than Germans at Math? Even if you were right, do you really believe that coming to that realization would improve anything? It’s like having terminal lymphoma and telling yourself a bump on your neck is not a cyst.

[js00]

maybe if schools were to quit teaching shit, maybe some people wouldn’t be so full of it.

[Professor_X]

[quote]js00 wrote:
maybe if schools were to quit teaching shit, maybe some people wouldn’t be so full of it.[/quote]

Exactly how many schools have “Shit 101”?

[doogie]

[quote]hspder wrote:

For the surveys I’m talking about, they have specific tests, designed for this purpose, identical for all countries, to a random but representative sample of the population of 18 year olds. REPRESENTATIVE. That means they also test the skills of non-brainiac Germans that didn’t go to the Gymnasium and are not going into college.

[/quote]

Can you post a link to one of these surveys? I’ve never seen one that tested other countries “vocational school” students.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]hspder wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Germany does (or did) split them completely. So if Germany hands a standardized test to the brainiac school they will do much better than the American school that has the brainiacs, the average kids, the Vo-Tech kids, the burnouts and the mentally handicapped that are being “mainstreamed”.

I think you didn’t understand my point, so let me ask it another way:

Do you really think that when people mention that we do very poorly in Math compared to the other countries, they are comparing our SATs to whatever standardized college-entrance exams MIGHT exist in those countries (which not all do)?

For the surveys I’m talking about, they have specific tests, designed for this purpose, identical for all countries, to a random but representative sample of the population of 18 year olds. REPRESENTATIVE. That means they also test the skills of non-brainiac Germans that didn’t go to the Gymnasium and are not going into college.

Either way, I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. Are you trying to say our kids are NOT worse than Germans at Math? Even if you were right, do you really believe that coming to that realization would improve anything? It’s like having terminal lymphoma and telling yourself a bump on your neck is not a cyst.
[/quote]

I am asking if the lower half of our students are bringing down the average.

In Germany the lower half of their students don’t go to the same high school the smarter kids do as we have discussed.

Does Germany use the math scores of their elite school system to compare to Americas mixed school system? You say they are taking into account all students but I am not so sure. I think the only kids that are still in school at 18 are the ones in Gymnasium.

If so the results are totally skewed.

If America took the top half of its students and educated them separately I suspect the test results would look much better.

When we compare American to foreign schools it may be comparing apples to oranges.

Do I think German students are better at math than I am? I doubt it.

Do I think German Gymnasium students are better at math than our poor students? Absolutely.

I think it is a mistake to make changes based on erroneous data.

I do think our school systems need improvement but it seems the comparison to foreign schools are skewed.

[anon31651765]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
hspder wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Germany does (or did) split them completely. So if Germany hands a standardized test to the brainiac school they will do much better than the American school that has the brainiacs, the average kids, the Vo-Tech kids, the burnouts and the mentally handicapped that are being “mainstreamed”.

I think you didn’t understand my point, so let me ask it another way:

Do you really think that when people mention that we do very poorly in Math compared to the other countries, they are comparing our SATs to whatever standardized college-entrance exams MIGHT exist in those countries (which not all do)?

For the surveys I’m talking about, they have specific tests, designed for this purpose, identical for all countries, to a random but representative sample of the population of 18 year olds. REPRESENTATIVE. That means they also test the skills of non-brainiac Germans that didn’t go to the Gymnasium and are not going into college.

Either way, I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. Are you trying to say our kids are NOT worse than Germans at Math? Even if you were right, do you really believe that coming to that realization would improve anything? It’s like having terminal lymphoma and telling yourself a bump on your neck is not a cyst.

I am asking if the lower half of our students are bringing down the average.

In Germany the lower half of their students don’t go to the same high school the smarter kids do as we have discussed.

Does Germany use the math scores of their elite school system to compare to Americas mixed school system? You say they are taking into account all students but I am not so sure. I think the only kids that are still in school at 18 are the ones in Gymnasium.

If so the results are totally skewed.

If America took the top half of its students and educated them separately I suspect the test results would look much better.

When we compare American to foreign schools it may be comparing apples to oranges.

Do I think German students are better at math than I am? I doubt it.

Do I think German Gymnasium students are better at math than our poor students? Absolutely.

I think it is a mistake to make changes based on erroneous data.

I do think our school systems need improvement but it seems the comparison to foreign schools are skewed.[/quote]

Honestly, I think that if our schools are ranked lower, it is not because German students have a better propensities towards certain subjects. It is all about the teachers.

There are so many bullshit teachers out there in k-12 that it is unbeliaveable. I daresay more than 50% of them are only there because the benefits are excellent and there are summers off. That is why students lag. Kids can learn anything, especially at young ages. If they’re not, then the problem is in the teachers and the system.

Seperating the kids into an elite class and a lower class is not the way to go. You can’t create a class system in schools like that. Who gives a shit how they compare to German students?

In all honesty, the only thing the school system prepares you for is to be a good little worker. They give you the bare bones, and throw you out. They need alot of work.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Honestly, I think that if our schools are ranked lower, it is not because German students have a better propensities towards certain subjects. It is all about the teachers.

There are so many bullshit teachers out there in k-12 that it is unbeliaveable. I daresay more than 50% of them are only there because the benefits are excellent and there are summers off. That is why students lag. Kids can learn anything, especially at young ages. If they’re not, then the problem is in the teachers and the system.

Seperating the kids into an elite class and a lower class is not the way to go. You can’t create a class system in schools like that. Who gives a shit how they compare to German students?

In all honesty, the only thing the school system prepares you for is to be a good little worker. They give you the bare bones, and throw you out. They need alot of work.[/quote]

I don’t think the Germans have a propensity for math any more than anyone else does. Their system will produce higher scores for the smart half of the students when compared to our nations average. (If this is the case)

I wonder how the American “honors” math students compare to the German Gymnasium students.

I don’t think separating the kids is a bad idea. More challenging courses are currently offered for the smarter American kids but I don’t think they go far enough.

We need a system that allows the brightest to be continually challenged while not ignoring the kids that do not learn as fast.

We are having problems with my first grader right now because she is one of about 5 kids in her class that does reading and math at a much higher level than the rest of her class.

They are all told to sit quietly with their hands in their lap while the rest of the kids struggle through the work. All of us parents have had multiple meetings with the teacher and principal but they are not addressing our concerns.

The teacher spends more time trying to break these kids spirits than she does teaching them.

My school system is the best funded system in the area and is considered on of the best in the state.

Unfortunately here in PA having the best school system in the state is like having the best physique at Curves.

No question our educational system needs work.

[cpaul23]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Ahahahahaha.

You guys getting a boner over this little one-sided collection of half truths and unstated facts really need to watch F-9/11.[/quote]

And spend time watching another one-sided collection of half truths and unstated facts?

I have never stated any political side on this forum, so please do not construe this comment as liberal bashing. I just feel that any movie like Brainwashing 101 or F-911 are going to show just the information they want, skewed to their purpose. No need to actually worry about any pesky facts, just prove a point.

[anon31651765]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Honestly, I think that if our schools are ranked lower, it is not because German students have a better propensities towards certain subjects. It is all about the teachers.

There are so many bullshit teachers out there in k-12 that it is unbeliaveable. I daresay more than 50% of them are only there because the benefits are excellent and there are summers off. That is why students lag. Kids can learn anything, especially at young ages. If they’re not, then the problem is in the teachers and the system.

Seperating the kids into an elite class and a lower class is not the way to go. You can’t create a class system in schools like that. Who gives a shit how they compare to German students?

In all honesty, the only thing the school system prepares you for is to be a good little worker. They give you the bare bones, and throw you out. They need alot of work.

I don’t think the Germans have a propensity for math any more than anyone else does. Their system will produce higher scores for the smart half of the students when compared to our nations average. (If this is the case)

I wonder how the American “honors” math students compare to the German Gymnasium students.

I don’t think separating the kids is a bad idea. More challenging courses are currently offered for the smarter American kids but I don’t think they go far enough.

We need a system that allows the brightest to be continually challenged while not ignoring the kids that do not learn as fast.

We are having problems with my first grader right now because she is one of about 5 kids in her class that does reading and math at a much higher level than the rest of her class.

They are all told to sit quietly with their hands in their lap while the rest of the kids struggle through the work. All of us parents have had multiple meetings with the teacher and principal but they are not addressing our concerns.

The teacher spends more time trying to break these kids spirits than she does teaching them.

My school system is the best funded system in the area and is considered on of the best in the state.

Unfortunately here in PA having the best school system in the state is like having the best physique at Curves.

No question our educational system needs work.[/quote]

My little brother has the same problem. The kid is far smarter than the rest of the kids in his class, and it does kind of hold him back. I never had this problem because I was so damn lazy in school, and didn’t really mind sleeping in class. He, however, will have a harder time being around kids that aren’t as quick (the kid is a classic type-A).

The high schools around here have honors classes, or AP classes, that are actually pretty good classes, and do give some incentive to perform. Not too mention that they had me reading shit like Kafka and Voltaire in senior year. However, as I said before, they are so eager to prove that they are so smart that all they do is cater to the stupid fucking AP test, and they stifle all creativity beause of this. I never even took the fucking things, but alot of ideas and discussions get shot down because they “aren’t on the AP test”.

In my opinion, even when the smart kids are seprated, the goddamn standardized tests still fuck it up. To me, there is just no argument for having them. They aren’t a yardstick of anything in my opinion.

Alot of kids are shitty test takers. Alot of guys in know from early on that they’re going to be mechanics or welders, and so they don’t care about them… And alot of guys like me did crappily on the SATS, even though we’re smarter than we seem. Just seems like a backward thing to me. People aren’t standard. Why give them a standardized test?

[doogie]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Alot of kids are shitty test takers. Alot of guys in know from early on that they’re going to be mechanics or welders, and so they don’t care about them… And alot of guys like me did crappily on the SATS, even though we’re smarter than we seem. Just seems like a backward thing to me. People aren’t standard. Why give them a standardized test? [/quote]

How would you make sure kids where learning at least the minimum they need to get by?

[hspder]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I think it is a mistake to make changes based on erroneous data.[/quote]

Who, at least on this thread, even mentioned making changes based solely on those test scores?

Although I do believe, based also on my experience living in both countries, that the German school system does a much better job at teaching Math to their students, I’ve also said that whatever they do doesn’t necessarily provide us with a solution, since our problem is cultural. So basically we’re arguing about something that boils down to being absolutely irrelevant.

We agree the system is deeply flawed, and that’s what matters. Let’s stop bickering and do something about it!

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
… Why give them a standardized test? [/quote]

With little or no school choice standard tests seem to be one of the few things used to keep schools honest.

I think if parents had a better choice in schools the standardized tests would not be nearly as important.

I think the lack of choice is the heart of the problem. Not everyone can afford to pay high school taxes and private school tuition.

One of the problems I see is the fringe element gravitates towards the homeschool option and makes it look strange.

I think we need more charter schools, etc. As more kids are enrolled in them you will have a better slice of society in them and they won’t be so easily dismissed.

School choice is a huge key to improving the system. I think No Child Left Behind was a halfway measure. Better than what it was by affixing a litle more accountability but not a fix.

[hspder]

[quote]doogie wrote:
How would you make sure kids where learning at least the minimum they need to get by?[/quote]

Who defines “the minimum they need to get by”? Is that even a target we should have?

In today’s world, where people constantly have to change jobs and careers, does that even make sense in practical terms?

Shouldn’t we be looking at help them develop their creativity and intelligence, preparing them to deal, as best as they possibly can, given their innate talents and/or limitations, with ANYTHING they might face in their adult lives?

Basically, shouldn’t we be exploring ALL their potential?

Should we continue to program robots to perform specific tasks, which might not even be performed by Americans in 30 years?

[doogie]

[quote]hspder wrote:

Who defines “the minimum they need to get by”? Is that even a target we should have?

In today’s world, where people constantly have to change jobs and careers, does that even make sense in practical terms?

Shouldn’t we be looking at help them develop their creativity and intelligence, preparing them to deal, as best as they possibly can, given their innate talents and/or limitations, with ANYTHING they might face in their adult lives?

Basically, shouldn’t we be exploring ALL their potential?

Should we continue to program robots to perform specific tasks, which might not even be performed by Americans in 30 years?
[/quote]

Legislature’s define it. Once a minimum level of functioning is met, it’s all well and good to worry about other things. It doesn’t do a whole lot of good to develop Johny’s creativity if he can’t read, spell, or add.

[hspder]

[quote]doogie wrote:
Legislature’s define it. Once a minimum level of functioning is met, it’s all well and good to worry about other things. It doesn’t do a whole lot of good to develop Johny’s creativity if he can’t read, spell, or add.
[/quote]

Are you sure? What if Johnny suffers from severe dyslexia?

I actually know several people that can’t read, spell or add but are highly intelligent, creative and, amazingly, successful people – but had a really bad time at school. The fact they survived it is amazing in itself and tells volumes of how exceptional they are.

Not only that, the fundamental problem with the legislature defining a minimum level – whatever it is – is that usually that will become the norm, not an actual minimum. Humans are fundamentally lazy, and work on a “least effort” basis – people are constantly trying new and creative ways of lowering the bar.

And before somebody points out how frequently I have been using the word “exceptional” on this thread, it is because of a very simple reason: I believe the true measure of the quality of an educational system is how well it deals with the exceptions. Dealing with normality is easy – it’s dealing with the exceptional that is hard.

[LBRTRN]

[quote]vroom wrote:

For chrissakes, I have to read Marx’s communist manifesto for a sociology course I’m taking. Let me tell you, Marx wasn’t a Republican.

I’m going to have to critique this piece and discuss it. I am not being told that communism is good, but Marx and Engels played a large role in history, that manifesto was perhaps the most impactful political document ever.

You can’t learn the subject, realistically, and not deal with such subject matter.

Boo. Hiss. Evil schools with biased teachings.

It’s moronic.[/quote]

I haven’t yet chimed in on this subject because as a current college student I like being in an environment that forces me to constantly question my world view; I wouldn’t have it any other way. I have had numerous left wing profs and truth be told, they are some of the best educators I have ever known.

I disagree with them often and have had only one prof react in a negative way.

With that said, Vroom, I don’t know about you but I have studied Marx on two different ocCasions, one of which was in colloquium format tought by a prof of history and a prof of English. In both cases, we covered Marx in depth while Adam Smith was barely mentioned. Of the two, who would you say has had a bigger influence on American political and economic thought?

[vroom]

Of the two, who would you say has had a bigger influence on American political and economic thought?

lbrtrn,

Who has had a bigger influence on Western political and economic thought?

Obvious people like Smith or Keynes will have more relevance to the economics of current Western nations.

However, economics is not the only social science going, and the concept of communism divided the world in two and to this day is a source of division between nations.

If you open your viewpoint up beyond your own borders (which is another type of brainwashing that your educational system perpetrates) you’ll see that.

It is necessary to at least know a little bit about what you aren’t, so that you know how to recognize if you are heading in the wrong direction, if at least for no other reason.

If you had some marxist professor who believed in communism, or promoted it instead of taught about it, that is an entirely different animal.

[vroom]

However, economics is not the only social science going, and the concept of communism divided the world in two and to this day is a source of division between nations.

To hammer on this further. The nonsense between the USA and the USSR led to pissing matches all over the Middle East, which has led us to the state of war today. That is pretty freaking impactful.

The nonsense which may or may not occur between the USA and China, as well as the USA and Cuba, are also based on Marx and his non-impactful little theories.

Hell, I might take my answer back and change it…