Book of Job - Why?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
remyc88,

As I sit here praying on how to answer your question,it is hard to truly answer to your specifics.Hope this helps somewhat.

As followers of Christ,we have only one source of guidance,the bible.We also have secondary sources written by man with his views as long as these writings do not conflict with the bible.

Isaiah 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways saith the Lord.For as the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways,and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Gods thoughts,plans,intensions,and ways are not only different from ours,they are infinitely higher.

Ezekiel 33:11 “…As I live saith the Lord God,I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,but that the wicked turn from his ways and live.Turn ye,turn ye from your evil ways,for why will you die.”

God is gracious,who delights not in judgement of sin but in spritual restoration of those who accept his grace.God wants everyone to turn to him for salvation so that they will not die in their sins.

Jonah 3:8-10 “…let them turn every one from their evil ways,and from the violence that is their hands.Who can tell if God will turn away from his fierce anger,that we perish not.And God saw their works,that they turned from their evil ways and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them,and he did it not.”

Gods primary desire is to have mercy,not to execute his threatened punishment,The Lord is a God who is moved with compassion for sinners who sincerely repent.

I Timothy 2:3-4 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

The bible reveals two aspects of the will of God for humankind with regard to salvation.Gods perfect will which says that he desires everyone to be saved.And his permissive will which acknowledges that he permits many to refuse to come to Christ and receive his salvation.

II Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack conserning his promise,as some men count slackness but is longsuffering to usward,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

This truth does not mean that all will be saved.For if a person rejects Gods grace and salvation,then they are lost.Some will perish but that is not his desire.He patiently provides time and opportunity through the preaching of the Gospel and even the truths being sent over these religious posts.

How can God be sovereign and man be free at the same time.In the scriptures certian truths emerge.God knows all things,the future as well as the past.God is not willing that any should perish.God has granted to man free moral agency,the right to make choices.Our choices determine our eternal destiny.The full meaning of these truths will not be fully understood until we meet with the perfect Teacher,Jesus christ himself.

Revelation 3:20-22 "Behold I stand at the door and knock,If any man hear my voice,and open the door,I will come into him,and sup with him,and he with me.To him that overcometh will grant to sit with me in my throne,even as I also overcame,and am set down with my Father in his throne.He that hath an ear,let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

MARANATHA [/quote]

This post is right on the mark!

42

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
This post is right on the mark![/quote]

Thanks Steve, I wrote it just for you.

Oh by the way, are you related to the guy above?

43

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
This post is right on the mark!

Thanks Steve, I wrote it just for you.

Oh by the way, are you related to the guy above?

[/quote]

Looks like you also have a nominal brain.

44

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
This post is right on the mark!

Thanks Steve, I wrote it just for you.

Oh by the way, are you related to the guy above?

[/quote]

You are angry, arent you?

45

[quote]orion wrote:
Somehow, people miss my question:

There are things that are obviously, physically bad for me, i.e. could kill me, like snakes and spiders and illnesses and rotten food and God has given me instincts to keep me away from them.

That was very nice of Him.

There are other things that are even worse for me because they might kill my immortal soul and yet he does not only not give me instincts who push me away, he gives me instinct that make me want them…

I am not sure if that was very nice of Him.
[/quote]
Actually your question is a good one Orion, and has been asked by many. Think of it like this- Would you walk around barefoot all day because God didn’t create you with supertough soles on your feet (like some other animals)? Why not just get yourself a pair of shoes right? It’s the same way with our base physical needs. If you have God, He can give you the strength to control them, rather then they controlling you. He made you with the instincts AND He made an easy way for you to have the power to control them. Salvation in Jesus Christ is easily had by all who want it.

46

LBRTRN: Now that’s an interesting premise! I guess it depends on how you view time, is it linear or does it happen all at once? But I think the idea of God being all knowing is that he can see the future, and thus he knows what will happen. Oh, and thanks for the suggestion on the book. I’ll definitely check it out.

JPBear and blacksheep: Thanks for the info.

I understand the idea that God has mercy and His intention is to save all of us and I realize that my question has been asked time and again–but the question has never really been answered to my satisfaction.

Let me try to break it down more so you can see where I’m coming from.

The premise here is that

  1. God is all knowing; He can see the future
  2. God is merciful; He wants people to be saved

Now, suppose today a child is going to be born. God knows everything that is going to happen in this child’s life. He knows all the mistakes and successes this child will have. And He knows whether or not this child will enter Heaven.

And if this future shows that the child will in fact NOT go to Heaven, then isn’t this child’s life predetermined? There is NOTHING the child can do to change that or else God would have seen it (i.e. the child cannot “surprise” God because God knows everything the child will do).

So that goes to show that God creates some people that are not to be saved and they are condemned to Hell. Right?

47

[quote]remyc88 wrote:

JPBear and blacksheep: Thanks for the info.

I understand the idea that God has mercy and His intention is to save all of us and I realize that my question has been asked time and again–but the question has never really been answered to my satisfaction.

Let me try to break it down more so you can see where I’m coming from.

The premise here is that

  1. God is all knowing; He can see the future
  2. God is merciful; He wants people to be saved

Now, suppose today a child is going to be born. God knows everything that is going to happen in this child’s life. He knows all the mistakes and successes this child will have. And He knows whether or not this child will enter Heaven.

And if this future shows that the child will in fact NOT go to Heaven, then isn’t this child’s life predetermined? There is NOTHING the child can do to change that or else God would have seen it (i.e. the child cannot “surprise” God because God knows everything the child will do).

So that goes to show that God creates some people that are not to be saved and they are condemned to Hell. Right?
[/quote]

I would say yes, although I know some of my Christian brothers on this board will disagree with me. That is okay though, we can disagree on this point and still all be saved, it is not essential theology.

I think that the Bible is very clear that God has chosen his redeemed, just as he chose the nation of Israel during the old covenant. Israel did not earn this favor, God chose them. As Romans 8:30 tells us: “and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

I believe in the Calvinistic doctrine that human beings are totally depraved. This does not mean that humans are as sinful as they possibly can be, but that there is not one part of the human mind and will that is not corrupted by sin. This is why I believe the Spirit of God must soften a man’s heart to the Gospel in order so that he may be saved.

This does not make God unfair though. No one deserves to be saved. I deserve hell more than any of you do I am sure. God would be justified in sending all of us to hell. The fact that he shows mercy to His chosen, just as he did to Israel, does not make His dealings with the rest of humanity unjust.

Yes, as the scriptures clearly tell us, the Lord desires to see everyone come to repentance, just as God desires for each human to live a sinless life. As Jesus said “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

But can a human being do this? No. That is why we believers pray for God to save lost souls and that is why we thank Him for our salvation. Because we recognize that his grace must even draw us to Him, and his power must humble us before him. I do not believe that I played even the smallest role in my salvation.

Human responsibility does still exist. Be honest with yourself. You know that you are responsible for your sin and that you were not coerced into behaving the way you have all your life.

Imagine a child molester who stood before a judge and said, “It’s not my fault I was born with these desires, therefore I should not be held responsible for my crimes. As a matter of fact, it’s not my fault I was born at all.” These things may be true, but should that person still be punished?

The logical problem we have with divine sovereignty and human responsibility is called an “antinomy”. An antinomy exists when a pair of principles stand side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. In this case there is no contradiction, just the appearance of one.

In Romans 9 Paul responds to this apparent contradiction: “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’”

Here is Paul’s response: “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’”.

We are not to question God with our finite minds and our human reason. We must accept what he tells us with a child-like faith.

The important question is, how are you going to respond to the Gospel? As Hebrews 2:3 says, “How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”

48

[quote]pitbull314 wrote:
I am currently taking a philosophy class and this was one of our major discussions. Why would a loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god allow evil? The cliche answer is that we have “free will” but why would god give humans like hitler the free will to kill millions of people and thus take away their free will? If god is all powerfull why doesn’t he destroy the devil? [/quote]

Free will is the key clich? or not. God could have made a world where everyone loved him and worshiped him, but that would not have been real love. Would you want someone to love you because you forced or manipulated them into it? The second part is that there is more at stake than what we see in this world. Things were tough for Job, but it was all temporal. Here we are over 2000 years latter discussing this and learning the valuable lessons that are taught in this book. I would say that the greater good was served. Check out the following link. It has answers to things like Can God create a rock so big he can?t move it??, ?What happens to a person that has never heard of Jesus??, and others.

http://oneplace.com/real_answer/8.aspx

Me Solomon Grundy

49

[quote]pitbull314 wrote:
I am currently taking a philosophy class and this was one of our major discussions. Why would a loving, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god allow evil? The cliche answer is that we have “free will” but why would god give humans like hitler the free will to kill millions of people and thus take away their free will? If god is all powerfull why doesn’t he destroy the devil? [/quote]

Free will is the key clich? or not. God could have made a world where everyone loved him and worshiped him, but that would not have been real love. Would you want someone to love you because you forced or manipulated them into it? The second part is that there is more at stake than what we see in this world. Things were tough for Job, but it was all temporal. Here we are over 2000 years latter discussing this and learning the valuable lessons that are taught in this book. I would say that the greater good was served. Check out the following link. It has answers to things like Can God create a rock so big he can?t move it??, ?What happens to a person that has never heard of Jesus??, and others.

http://oneplace.com/real_answer/8.aspx

Me Solomon Grundy

50

remyc88,

With the help of the Holy Spirit,we will try to clear things up a little more.

To begin with,without Christ,all mankind is predetermined for hell.

Romans 3:10b “…there is none righteous,no not one.”

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore,as by one man,sin entered into the world,and death by sin,and so death passed upon all men,for that all have sinned.”

Romans 6:23a “For the wages of sin is death…”

John 3:18b “…he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

But with Christ,all mankind are to go to Heaven.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Now,here is where scripturally,predetermine comes into the picture.Predetermine in the bible is the word,predestination,and is never related to any person outside of Christ (unbelievers).It always refers to those in Christ (believers).

Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine belivers in Christ).

We might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven.The ship (the church)is Gods very own vessel and Christ is the Captian and Pilot of his ship.All who desire to be a passenger can do so through a living faith in Christ.As long as one is on the ship,in company with its Captian,he is among the predestined.If he chooses to abandom the ship and Captian,he ceases to be one of the predestined.Predestination tells us about the ships destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it.God invites everyone to come aboard the ship through faith in Jesus Christ.

God knew that it was predetermined that all mankind was destined for hell but his love for mankind gave us a way out,his Son Jesus Christ.Now it is up to mankind to determine where they are to go.

As JP Bear stated “How are you going to respond to the gospel”

John 3:18a “He that beliveth on him (Jesus Christ)is not condemned…”

Psalms 8:4a “What is man that thou art mindful of him…”

Mindful-(Hebrew)To mark and remember and set the heart upon contiunally in merciful view

That God is mindful of mankind at all may be termed unfathomable.What we receive from God is certainly desperately undeserved.

MARANATHA

51

[quote]remyc88 wrote:
LBRTRN: Now that’s an interesting premise! I guess it depends on how you view time, is it linear or does it happen all at once?[/quote]

Form our perspective it certainly is linear, but for God, who, in my opinion, resides outside space-time, it happens all at once. The answer to your question would then be both, it just depends on one’s perspective.

I quite agree that is certainly the historical view; however, I think that stems from lack of understanding and an inability to grasp the idea of there being an “outside” of space-time. I think it’s important to remember that if the Bible is truely God’s word, then it is meant to be read over the course of thousands of years and it must explain the nature of God in ways that are understandable to everyone and all times. As our knowledge of the nature of time and space increase, it only seems logical that our understand of how God relates to space and time should change accordingly. So when the Bible says God knows the end from the beginning, we should view that statement in light of what we now know about space and time.

No prob. I think you’ll like it.