Bob Costas and the 2nd Amendment

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
We Americans have deluded ourselves into thinking this country is eternal just because we live here. We think all the insane upheaval we see around the world cannot happen here and the grocery store will always be there full of food just because. It’s coming. Watch. Somebody will always live on this continent until the end of the age, but this already isn’t the United Sates anymore. Our bottle rocket history is coming to an end, barring a literal miracle. I’m betting it’s gonna be loud n ugly and probably bloody. Not tomorrow… or next week… or next year, But it’s comin. We will NOT be the exception.
[/quote]

A bit portentous on the whole, but I absolutely agree with your two opening lines. If you’d have told the Romans at the height of their reign that their glorious capital would be a near-vacant marshland by the 6th century, they’d have laughed in your face.

It’s simply undeniable that even if original intent was 100% for the purpose of private parity with a potentially tyrannical government, that can no longer be the case. I actually agree with SMH here. It’s absolutely comically ridiculous. Conventional ground operations alone would be a joke IF our military could be turned against the citizenry for real. UNLESS… MAYBE, if tens and tens of millions of highly courageous, motivated, well armed AND organized folks could come together. Har dee har har.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Disposing of the state of Texas, were it to revolt for instance, by dropping nuclear bombs from the Gulf of Mexico to the Red River is NOT what’s going to happen, my friend. Just aint happenin’.[/quote]

I’d like to think you are correct, but, when push really comes to shove, I’m not 100% certain on this point. It depends on how crazy things get; the person who is actually in command when the shoving starts; and the quality of the communication up and down the chain of command at the time. Crazy things happen when things get crazy. [/quote]

Read the book I mentioned.

I still posit that it is nonsensical to bring up nuclear weapons when we are discussing assault weapons and magazine capacity.[/quote]

You keep adding to my reading list, which is fine, I just need to steal my wife’s Kindle to keep up. Also, to be clear, I have made a few comments and observations in here but largely stayed out of the debate. That said, I don’t have any problem with the idea that the second amendment protects an individual’s right to possess assault weapons or should be interpreted to do so. By the same token, I don’t have a firm opinion on the contours of that right and I am soaking in the points you guys are making. I generally believe in reading all of the bill of rights expansively in favor of the individual as a matter of policy.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

But don’t tell me that the Founding Father’s didn’t intend for civilians to be armed to the teeth and don’t tell me that the ballot box is THE only way to go forever and ever and ever and ever when it comes to resisting tyranny. I aint buyin’ it.

Now if you agree that the Founding Father’s intended citizens to be able to resist tyranny then don’t tell me that a few hunting rifles and sporting shotgun is what’s going to take to get the job done. And don’t tell me that since the job seemingly can’t get done against Warthogs and cruise missiles that we just gotta suck it up and admit that we’ve lost before we ever even began to fight. I aint buyin’ that either.

[/quote]

Take this to its logical conclusion: should the Koch brothers be barred from purchasing Scud missiles? Should they be allowed to build a submarine and outfit it with heavy ordnance? Purchase enriched uranium?

You discount these questions because they lead force you to take an uncomfortable position, but they represent the culmination of the argument you’re making. If we’re going to be able to resist tyranny, we might as well do it in earnest, no?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The idea that a war with the US military is not winnable therefore it makes sense to allow ourselves into being duped into the idea that depriving Americans of one of their inalienable rights is just the way it’s gotta be is a preposterously illogical tack. It is stupid. Stupid. Stupid. And it’s the mark of a loser and a coward.

“Well…we could never seriously tackle the totally awesome US military so we might as well be ready (or prepare our children) to load up in the cattle car and head for the future Topeka, Kansas version of Dachau someday. Ho hum.”

Ho fucking hum, my ass.

Now did I go to the extreme with the Dachau comment? Maybe. But I really think some of you don’t understand what armed resistance against a tyrannical US government might entail. Read the book.

Some of you need to read the book just to get a freakin’ history lesson in how we got from there to here when it comes to the American gun culture and the politics that surround it.[/quote]I have not offered nor have I implied any conclusions. I don’t know what the answer is as far as the 2nd Amendment and modern weaponry is concerned. I will say that if the Wikipedia account of your book is accurate? Unintended Consequences (novel) - Wikipedia Which it may not be not be for all I know, but if it is. You ARE dreamin and no I would not be willing to go on an assassination spree with you to force the president to repeal gun control laws. Ya jist havta be kiddin me. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with you personally. In fact YOU have to be smarter than this.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I still posit that it is nonsensical to bring up nuclear weapons when we are discussing assault weapons and magazine capacity.[/quote]

It’s only made necessary by the fact that opponents of arms control begin by questioning the notion that any weapon at all can be restricted. The nuclear weapon is the logical rebuttal.

But I wasn’t bringing them up in that context anyway. My point was that the US Government has them and therefore a “civilian military capable of rivaling the government’s power” is absolutely, comically ridiculous.[/quote]

Again, if personal missile systems are effecting your interpretation of an amendment written in the 1700s, you are full of shit.

Nor does an argument about what the amendment says and was intended to do necessitate that I think civilians should have nukes. But again, I’ve listed alternatives already and been ignored.

You are essentially arguing that the founders didn’t mean for civilians to have military arms, by pointing to nuclear weapons. Do you not see how absurdly ridiculous that is?

Still waiting on you to tell me what the amendment actually says.

It appears nothing’s changed.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I have not offered nor have I implied any conclusions. <<<>>> IF the Wikipedia account of your book is accurate? <<<>>> Which it may not be not be for all I know, but IF it is[/quote][quote]pushharder wrote:<<< draws his conclusions from Wikipedia.[/quote] [quote]pushharder wrote:<<< Anyway, I’m not interested in participating in any kind of “spree” with you. None. So don’t stroke your ego thinking I’d ever even ask.[/quote]I was speaking in general principle. Not to you personally. I guess I actually did have to spell that out. Christians are not pacifists, but we will not be going about the country sniping off federal agents and public officials in an attempt to win attrition through personal force. Frankly this guy sounds like every wacky thing that conservatives are constantly accused of. That is not warfare. It’s murder. IF that’s what the plan is. Ephesians 6:12 [quote]For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.[/quote]2 Corinthians 10:4[quote]for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses[/quote]I do not live in desperation when the Lord of the universe is my Father. Accordingly, my security does not come from the barrel of a gun though I would not hesitate to fight a righteous war or draw down on somebody in a godly manner if the situation warranted it biblically.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Au contraire, hoss. I’m in no trouble at all. None whatsoever.[/quote]

That’s thr trouble - you are, and you don’t realize you are. Not ten minutes ago you still thought the BOR applied to the states from inception.

[quote]“Barron v. Baltimore’s simple rule, that the Bill of Rights applies only to the federal government and not to the states, was, in the words of Chief Justice Marshall, “not of much difficulty” – self-evident from the structure and literal language of the Constitution. [u]However, in spite of the Court’s ruling, state courts still interpreted the Bill of Rights as applying to their own governments, viewing them as reflections of the general laws in Anglo-American culture (“the common law”).[/u] The Supreme Court’s ruling in Barron prevailed in federal courts, however, until passage of the Fourteenth Amendment after the Civil War. Gradually since then, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment, which bans states from depriving citizens of life, liberty, or property without “due process of law,” as also incorporating – or applying – most of the amendments in the Bill of Rights against the states, including the “takings clause” of the Fifth Amendment. Modern constitutional law prohibits state governments from taking private property without just compensation.”

*emphasis mine[/quote]

Well, the “emphasis” doesn’t help you, though - many state constitutions were based on the federal one, and states incorporated many of the same rights as the federal BOR. But again, that doesn’t help you - that doesn’t mean the Second Amendment applied to the states at the time - it means states adopted similar and in some case identical rights as a matter of…wait for it…state law and policy. Which is fine, that isn’t all that novel. That is precisely the state power I’ve been referring to for five pages.

So, what you emphasized doesn’t mean what you want it to mean - these same states that tracked with federal BOR with its own state version still maintained some regulation of arms as a matter of history. It’s a fact. And each state was different - there was no uniformity as to the scope of the right among the states. It varied because states exercised their states’ rights to handle it their way, and Georgia had different laws than Maryland.

There is just no other way to say it - the Second Amendment did not apply to the states, and states did their own thing with respect to the right of arms. Until the passage of the 14th Amendment, there was no argument that states had basically plenary power to do what they wished in this area. Maybe that meant robust rights - maybe that meant higher regulation than you’d prefer. But what matters is…whatever they decided, states had the power to decide and were not restricted by the Second Amendment legally and constitutionally. Period.

Look, you just don’t know what you’re talking about here. You are starting with an ideological result you really like and want - “the universal right to own any arm you want was recognized since the Bill of Rights, regardless of federal or state!” - and then try and work backwards to justify the claim, and in doing so, you’re making a dog’s breakfast out of the actual facts and history, which you don’t know.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

And I keep reiterating that you are starting at the hypothetical end point and working backwards. Start at the other end of the spectrum. Start on July 4, 1584 – yes, 1584, the date of the landing of English colonists on Roanoke Island in what is now North Carolina (I used to live there FWIW) – and proceed to the pre-war years of the early - mid 1770’s and through the Revolutionary War from 1776 - 1783; then through the Articles of Confederation era and right up until the last state, Rhode Island, ratified the Bill of Rights in 1790.

Now examine all those years and all the consensus views on personal ownership and “bearing of arms.” THEN establish (it’s not all that hard) exactly what original intent in regards to the Second Amendment was.[/quote]

We’ve been discussing that for pages - you’re just now talking about this? See my reply to Duce. States exercised a number of requirements and restriuctions, including banning ownership of guns by disolyalists and at least in one instance, Catholics.

That has been the entire argument re: original intent. Colonial and early legislatures actually did impose restrictions on ownership and carrying in some instances, and no one questioned their ability to do so because the Second Amendment didn’t restrict them from imposing these restrictions.

Catch up.

Yep, states did it their own way, unimpeded by the Second Amendment, and my voice is hoarse from repeating it:

State v. Buzzard (Arkansas, 1842): That the right of the people to keep and bear arms is restricted by the clause of the Constitution before quoted and limited to the uses and objects therein specified: That it is given for the protection of public liberty and for common defense; and that the right itself is subject to legislative control: That the words “a well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free State,” and the words “common defense” clearly show the true intent and meaning of these Constitutions and prove that it is a political and not an individual right, and, of course, that the State, in her legislative capacity, has the right to regulate and control it: This being the case, then the people, neither individually nor collectively, have the right to keep and bear arms."

That was Arkansas’ determination under its constitution. Kentucky said there is an absoluet individual right back in the day:

Bliis v. Commonwealth (Kentucky, 1822):The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the state, must be preserved entire.

Two different states, two different conclusions, and no question that the federal Second Amendment interfered with their right to decide for themselves.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I still posit that it is nonsensical to bring up nuclear weapons when we are discussing assault weapons and magazine capacity.[/quote]

It’s only made necessary by the fact that opponents of arms control begin by questioning the notion that any weapon at all can be restricted. The nuclear weapon is the logical rebuttal.

But I wasn’t bringing them up in that context anyway. My point was that the US Government has them and therefore a “civilian military capable of rivaling the government’s power” is absolutely, comically ridiculous.[/quote]

Again, if personal missile systems are effecting your interpretation of an amendment written in the 1700s, you are full of shit.

Nor does an argument about what the amendment says and was intended to do necessitate that I think civilians should have nukes. But again, I’ve listed alternatives already and been ignored.

You are essentially arguing that the founders didn’t mean for civilians to have military arms, by pointing to nuclear weapons. Do you not see how absurdly ridiculous that is?

Still waiting on you to tell me what the amendment actually says.[/quote]

If original intent means so much to you, then let’s talk about the fact that when the founders wrote “keep and bear arms,” they were talking about muskets. So if you’re such a purist maybe the Second Amendment only permits you to own a musket. Good luck with your valiant rebellion there DD. Don’t forget your satchel of gunpowder.

Go back and read my posts: “It is fatuous speculation to wonder about whether or not the founders would have been cool with John Doe in Bumblefuck, USA and his cache of C-4.”

We’re not talking about heavy ordnance because the founders would or would not have wanted us to. We’re talking about heavy ordnance because it fucking exists today and under certain interpretations of our law it may be bought and stored by American citizens.

Edit: the Second Amendment says citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. Whether this means all arms or not is not explicitly specified. That’s it. I won’t tack on some other nonsense that’s “right there in the text” and then refuse to acknowledge that, no, it isn’t “right there in the text.”

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I discount them for the reason I’ve already mentioned. You want to play with it because you feel it enables you to work backwards and “protect the folks” from James Holmes. You think, If I can get Push to concede that da peeplz shouldn’t own ICBM’s then I have him boxed into banning high capacity magazines in AR-15’s so innocents don’t die in picture show houses. Ha! I am so clever! Not only that but I’m so freakin’ reasonable too. Push, however, has gone off the deep end.
[/quote]

Ridiculous cop-out. This isn’t about AR-15’s anymore.

Do you or do you not believe that, pursuant to the Second Amendment, the right to own literally any weapon is a Constitutionally protected liberty?

This is a matter of establishing your basic position: of stating your interpretation of the Second Amendment, which, you’ll agree, is probably a good thing to do in an argument about the Second Amendment. The discussion really can’t move forward until this simple, fundamental point has been established.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I discount them for the reason I’ve already mentioned. You want to play with it because you feel it enables you to work backwards and “protect the folks” from James Holmes. You think, If I can get Push to concede that da peeplz shouldn’t own ICBM’s then I have him boxed into banning high capacity magazines in AR-15’s so innocents don’t die in picture show houses. Ha! I am so clever! Not only that but I’m so freakin’ reasonable too. Push, however, has gone off the deep end.
[/quote]

Ridiculous cop-out. This isn’t about AR-15’s anymore.

Do you or do you not believe that, pursuant to the Second Amendment, the right to own literally any weapon is a Constitutionally protected liberty?

This is a matter of establishing your basic position: of stating your interpretation of the Second Amendment, which, you’ll agree, is probably a good thing to do in an argument about the Second Amendment. The discussion really can’t move forward until this simple, fundamental point has been established.[/quote]

Such a broad interpretation would be pretty moronic in that it would allow you to own chemical and biological weapons agents which are only prohibited by treaty and the broad legal view is the treaties don’t circumscribe American’s constitutional rights.