[quote]Professor X wrote:
But…you didn’t vote.
YOU DID NOT VOTE.
No one who avoids the polls on purpose should even be given a platform to bitch and moan about who gets elected.
[/quote]
Utter bullshit. It is the people who avoid the polls who are the most entitled to complain.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I bet you could spend that tax money a hell of alot more effectively than the government can. Saving for your own education, healthcare, whatever. Those are just examples, and not an exhaustive list of what a free man could do with his money.
Maybe saving to start a business. You might be able to hire an employee or two. Buy equipment, tools, heck, whatever you need.
[/quote]
I don’t mind supporting a Canadian military, a working educational system, or a variety of other reasonable programs.
Also, strangely, as someone with an education and a good career, I can save, I’ve started a business, bought equipment, live in a nice home, provide for my family, and a host of other things.
What gives you the impression that the majority of people living in countries that have taxes can’t do these things? Where is the hard working spirit you guys like to suggest taxes break? It’s in the hearts of people paying taxes, working to increase their income to the point that they need to give their families what they feel is appropriate.
Other than as an ideology, or in the case of very high tax rates, this is a sideshow. Would I like lower taxes? Sure, and if my country can pay down it’s debt, I’m sure that eventually I’ll get them.
Will your country get it’s spending under control? I don’t know, but if not, you are right, you’ll be paying for it one way or another.
[quote]vroom wrote:
What gives you the impression that the majority of people living in countries that have taxes can’t do these things? Where is the hard working spirit you guys like to suggest taxes break? It’s in the hearts of people paying taxes, working to increase their income to the point that they need to give their families what they feel is appropriate.
.[/quote]
They can’t do those things as much. Less money is left in their hands.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
They can’t do those things as much. Less money is left in their hands.[/quote]
LOL. Dude, seriously, get past the ideology.
I have highways I can drive on. I have a great education system that I and my family can take advantage of. Whether or not it scares you that I do - I have access to all the health care I actually need.
Of course less money is left in my hands.
I’ve actually argued long and hard on these forums that I’d like taxation to move from income tax to consumption tax. This would help me invest or grow my money more, prior to spending, than the current system.
Unless and until you design a working society that requires no government, you and I will be paying tax… your ideology does nothing but keep you from recognizing real issues and areas where government policy can be effective and useful.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Again, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW TO MY PAYCHECKS?
Answer the damn question.
Where the fuck is all of my money going right now?
Why the fuck are you not protesting that at all?
[/quote]
Get married, and have 2 kids. Your taxes will go down tremendously.
I can’t believe you think the answer to high taxes is higher taxes.
Oh - wait - you don’t care who gets taxed just as long as it’s not you.
If you stay in your chosen career field, you will pay higher taxes than you are paying now - at some point.
You are taking the early estimate of the new baby jesus tax plan. It is now down to $150K.
But let’s set aside the tax increase for a second. You want to know what they are doing with your taxes right now? They are giving a chink of it to people who make less than you who pay no taxes at all. And the new baby jesus wants to give even more of it to people who pay not taxes.
Two wrongs don’t make a right - yet you seem to have no problem thinking otherwise.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
They can’t do those things as much. Less money is left in their hands.
LOL. Dude, seriously, get past the ideology.
I have highways I can drive on. I have a great education system that I and my family can take advantage of. Whether or not it scares you that I do - I have access to all the health care I actually need.
Of course less money is left in my hands.
I’ve actually argued long and hard on these forums that I’d like taxation to move from income tax to consumption tax. This would help me invest or grow my money more, prior to spending, than the current system.
Unless and until you design a working society that requires no government, you and I will be paying tax… your ideology does nothing but keep you from recognizing real issues and areas where government policy can be effective and useful.
[/quote]
No. I recognize where government can be useful. Defense and the courts. Free markets will do pretty much anything else better for less cost, while respecting the freedom and dignity of man.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
No. I recognize where government can be useful. Defense and the courts. Free markets will do pretty much anything else better for less cost, while respecting the freedom and dignity of man.[/quote]
Well, not many people are against free markets.
However, there are many situations where there is no market, or where a market is not functioning well.
Having only the ideology of “free markets at all times at all costs” is not going to be the right move. A slight modification towards “making markets as free as possible while ensuring they continue to operate effectively” would be better.
So, let’s get into a scary area. Without a public educational system the American level of patriotism would be likely to fall. Seriously, the way we learn our history, in most countries via public education, helps install in us a sense of greatness of our own nations. Do you really think you want patriotism left totally to vagaries of a free market?
What about the evils of communism? Surely a free market educational system would focus only on giving us precisely what we need to know to do a task… reducing cost and length of time needed to be productive at our tasks.
The job of government is to consider the needs of the nation, and to find ways to advance those issues. Foreign policy is an embodiment of this issue. So is the military. Also, programs such as creating a massive interstate highway system.
Sometimes national needs are not exactly aligned with a market or the profit motive… money is not the only measure that matters – though it is of course an important one.
The government is there to defend life and property against force and fraud. Once it begins redistributing (not respecting property, oddly) in the name of “economic justice” it is no longer carrying out its legitimate function.
As far a public education, I’d be fine with letting the states have complete and total responisility. I happen to think states that hand it off to the free-market would become the model, but I’d let each individual state decide. But entitlements? Foreign aid? Gotta go! Respect our freedom, and individuality.
Edit: And seriously, what with the “Ideology” usage? Of course I hold ideological beliefs {political/economic/social beliefs). Just as believing in a “safety net” is an ideological belief…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
The government is there to defend life and property against force and fraud. Once it begins redistributing (not respecting property, oddly) in the name of “economic justice” it is no longer carrying out its legitimate function.
As far a public education, I’d be fine with letting the states have complete and total responisility. I happen to think states that hand it off to the free-market would become the model, but I’d let each individual state decide. But entitlements? Foreign aid? Gotta go! Respect our freedom, and individuality.[/quote]
I have added it late, but pollution is a great example of where greed is not the end-all be-all of policy. The government needs to create regulations, and enforce those regulations, and that causes the need for taxation and spending.
So, what we need to argue about are which things the government should be spending on… where the greed of the free market does not create an optimal solution… and how much involvement might be justified, not the raw ideology of taxation.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
They can’t do those things as much. Less money is left in their hands.
LOL. Dude, seriously, get past the ideology.
I have highways I can drive on. I have a great education system that I and my family can take advantage of. Whether or not it scares you that I do - I have access to all the health care I actually need.
Of course less money is left in my hands.
I’ve actually argued long and hard on these forums that I’d like taxation to move from income tax to consumption tax. This would help me invest or grow my money more, prior to spending, than the current system.
Unless and until you design a working society that requires no government, you and I will be paying tax… your ideology does nothing but keep you from recognizing real issues and areas where government policy can be effective and useful.
Free markets will do pretty much anything else better for less cost, while respecting the freedom and dignity of man.[/quote]
Dude, do you actually believe that statement? Free markets are the reason why you have people all over the world working in sweat shops for $1 or less a day. They are responsible for the outsourcing that has occured in this country by big corporations and the decline in the employment rate.
They are probably one of the biggest reasons for the lack of respect for the dignity of man.
Yeah, they will do things for less cost, but there is a cost in terms of human rights that goes along with that lower monetary cost. And “better”, no not that I’ve noticed, at least not better for the majority.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
I oppose any system that pits one class against another regardless of my own economic standing.[/quote]
You do realise that’s the basis of capitalism, right?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Oh - wait - you don’t care who gets taxed just as long as it’s not you.
[/quote]
I think that statement would apply to a lot of people, rich or poor. Everyone seems happy to let someone else tow the line, just as long as that person can keep more of their stuff they’re happy.
But you are talking about a career field that makes a large salary (on average) and generally it’s members aren’t scraping bottom, or hard pressed for living expenses. Such people aren’t going to be floored from a financial standpoint if they are taxed a little more.
Sure, maybe they’ll have to only go to the Carribean once a year instead of twice. Or buy the Condo in South Beach, rather than the Villa. But it’s not like they aren’t going to be able to put food on the table or life comfortably. BTW I’m purposely exaggerating, but the point still stands.
But why do those people pay no taxes? Because their income is so damn low that they literally don’t even make enough money to support themselves/their families. Yes, I know there are people who take advantage of this system, and yes I agree that there should be some sort of limited availability to such benefits.
The problem of course is that there is a general lack of availability of well paying jobs out there at the moment. So, how do you determine that cut off time?
But are you really suggesting that depriving Flava Flav the ability to put a solid gold toilet in his mansion, so that a family can eat and heat their home in the winter is a bad idea? Or is in any way morally wrong? Are people really that devoid of compassion for their fellow man that they’d rather have them go without, simply so they could live an extravagant lifestyle? Seems to me that’s how the world got into the mess it’s in right now to begin with.
[quote]ninearms wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I oppose any system that pits one class against another regardless of my own economic standing.
You do realise that’s the basis of capitalism, right?
[/quote]
Shit, try finding any “civilized” nation in the world that doesn’t do that.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Again, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW TO MY PAYCHECKS?
Answer the damn question.
Where the fuck is all of my money going right now?
Why the fuck are you not protesting that at all?
Get married, and have 2 kids. Your taxes will go down tremendously.
I can’t believe you think the answer to high taxes is higher taxes.
Oh - wait - you don’t care who gets taxed just as long as it’s not you.
If you stay in your chosen career field, you will pay higher taxes than you are paying now - at some point.
You are taking the early estimate of the new baby jesus tax plan. It is now down to $150K.
But let’s set aside the tax increase for a second. You want to know what they are doing with your taxes right now? They are giving a chink of it to people who make less than you who pay no taxes at all. And the new baby jesus wants to give even more of it to people who pay not taxes.
Two wrongs don’t make a right - yet you seem to have no problem thinking otherwise. [/quote]
My money was being taken during the Bush admin and no one was calling it “wealth redistribution” or complaining about it even though our war practices and tax breaks still ended in a massive economic crisis. I agree, my money was being “redistributed” to the poor and I didn’t hear one person call out Bush on the issue in the several years I’ve participated in this forum. So why is Obama being called on it like he invented the idea?
You are RIGHT. I don’t care that people making more money than me will be paying higher taxes. They can also likely afford it better than I can or anyone making less than I am.
Two wrongs don’t make a right but unless there was some plan proposed by McCain that ELIMINATED income taxes all around, this crying about it is pointless.
Taxes were going to be paid no matter who won the election.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Again, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU CALL WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW TO MY PAYCHECKS?
Answer the damn question.
Where the fuck is all of my money going right now?
Why the fuck are you not protesting that at all?
Get married, and have 2 kids. Your taxes will go down tremendously.
I can’t believe you think the answer to high taxes is higher taxes.
Oh - wait - you don’t care who gets taxed just as long as it’s not you.
If you stay in your chosen career field, you will pay higher taxes than you are paying now - at some point.
You are taking the early estimate of the new baby jesus tax plan. It is now down to $150K.
But let’s set aside the tax increase for a second. You want to know what they are doing with your taxes right now? They are giving a chink of it to people who make less than you who pay no taxes at all. And the new baby jesus wants to give even more of it to people who pay not taxes.
Two wrongs don’t make a right - yet you seem to have no problem thinking otherwise.
My money was being taken during the Bush admin and no one was calling it “wealth redistribution” or complaining about it even though our war practices and tax breaks still ended in a massive economic crisis. I agree, my money was being “redistributed” to the poor and I didn’t hear one person call out Bush on the issue in the several years I’ve participated in this forum. So why is Obama being called on it like he invented the idea?
You are RIGHT. I don’t care that people making more money than me will be paying higher taxes. They can also likely afford it better than I can or anyone making less than I am.
Two wrongs don’t make a right but unless there was some plan proposed by McCain that ELIMINATED income taxes all around, this crying about it is pointless.
Taxes were going to be paid no matter who won the election.[/quote]
And get higher…no matter who won. Its really inevitable no matter who,where,how,and when.
No, (truly) free markets lead to the kind of effecient production systems and cheap goods and services that raise the standard of living. Over-regulation and taxation is largely responsible for outsourcing. If you pile costs onto me to do business here, I’ll take my jobs overseas to a friendlier enviroment.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
No, (truly) free markets lead to the kind of efficient production systems and cheap goods and services that raise the standard of living. Over-regulation and taxation is largely responsible for outsourcing. If you pile costs onto me to do business here, I’ll take my jobs overseas to a friendlier environment.
[/quote]
which is happening already.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, (truly) free markets lead to the kind of efficient production systems and cheap goods and services that raise the standard of living. Over-regulation and taxation is largely responsible for outsourcing. If you pile costs onto me to do business here, I’ll take my jobs overseas to a friendlier environment.
which is happening already.[/quote]
Which is why we shouldn’t be adding more taxation, but instead cut taxation on income, investing, and saving dramatically. What else are you going to do? Tell supposedly free Americans they can’t ship jobs overseas?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
My money was being taken during the Bush admin and no one was calling it “wealth redistribution” or complaining about it even though our war practices and tax breaks still ended in a massive economic crisis. I agree, my money was being “redistributed” to the poor and I didn’t hear one person call out Bush on the issue in the several years I’ve participated in this forum. So why is Obama being called on it like he invented the idea?[/quote]
You were taxed a good deal less under Bush than you were under Clinton. Remember the evil Bush tax cuts? They run out in 2010, btw - so you will be paying more under Obama than you were under Bush.
If you didn’t here people bitching, you weren’t listening.
It’s not about “affording” it. Who are you to make that decision? I am sure you could afford to pay a shit load more in taxes than you do seeing as how you are single.
[quote]Two wrongs don’t make a right but unless there was some plan proposed by McCain that ELIMINATED income taxes all around, this crying about it is pointless.
Taxes were going to be paid no matter who won the election.[/quote]
This issue is not the taxes. It is the taking from one with the promise to give it to others.
If you can’t understand that simple fact - well - enjoy paying for plasma screens you will never be able to watch.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are RIGHT. I don’t care that people making more money than me will be paying higher taxes. They can also likely afford it better than I can or anyone making less than I am.[/quote]
Some thief thought you could likely afford a new car stereo better than he could. I’m sure he didn’t care since you make more money than him anyway.
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