Black and Republican?

Good find, Doogie.

To dovetail on to your post, I posted this a few pages back:

"Another study on the role of names in the labor market found results that seem to contradict Bertrand and Mullainathan’s conclusions. Economists Roland Fryer and Steven Levitt used information collected on non-Hispanic black and non-Hispanic white babies born in California between 1961 and 2000.3 The authors measured how distinct an African-American name is by calculating a Black Name Index (BNI), which measures the percentage of babies with a given name who are black.4

Fryer and Levitt found the BNI to be related to a number of variables associated with socioeconomic status. For example, single black mothers, as well as younger and less-educated black parents, are more likely to give their children distinctively ethnic names. Additionally, lower birth weight is correlated with a higher occurrence of ethnic names. Fryer and Levitt also found that the local socioeconomic environment can spill over to the likelihood of receiving an ethnic name. For instance, increasing per capita income in the residential ZIP code decreases the incidence of ethnic names. Moreover, children born in hospitals with lower percentages of black births?an indicator of the degree of neighborhood segregation?and children whose births are paid for by private insurance are, on average, less likely to be given ethnic names.

If employers believe both that low social background hinders human capital accumulation and that an ethnic name is a signal of low socioeconomic status at birth, then they may infer that an ethnic name signals low productivity. In this case, employers might forgo interviewing a person with an ethnic name on the basis of inferred productivity rather than animus. However, if employers use names to facilitate racial animus instead of as a signal of productivity, then one would expect to find variations in the effect on economic outcomes, and a black adult with an ethnic name would be worse off economically than an otherwise similar black adult with a race-neutral name, on average…

In light of their results, Fryer and Levitt concluded that having a distinctively African-American name will not directly cause worse economic outcomes in adulthood. Rather, they argue that such a name typically goes hand-in-hand with a worse socioeconomic background and, hence, lower productivity on average. After the authors controlled for negative economic conditions at the time of birth, they found that name alone has virtually no impact. They argue that this evidence supports the notion that employers may be inferring productivity from an ethnic name."

The overview is quite interesting, and as Boston has been arguing, it confirms that there may be more to it than a simple explanation of having racist attitudes and snap judgments toward names.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I did answer it. How could anyone possibly see avoiding giving someone a job because their names sounds black as “something other than racism”? It isn’t just a “possible” answer. It is the first logical answer if someone is denied a job because their name dnotes skin color. You all are truly this blind?[/quote]

See the above post w/r/t the St. Louis Fed.

Your approach is this: the cause is always presumed to be racism and, unless you prove that it isn’t racism, the question doesn’t even enter your mind that the cause could be something else. Racism, for you, is an always standing rebuttable presumption, but with a near impossibility to overcome.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I did answer it. How could anyone possibly see avoiding giving someone a job because their names sounds black as “something other than racism”? It isn’t just a “possible” answer. It is the first logical answer if someone is denied a job because their name dnotes skin color. You all are truly this blind?

See the above post w/r/t the St. Louis Fed.

Your approach is this: the cause is always presumed to be racism and, unless you prove that it isn’t racism, the question doesn’t even enter your mind that the cause could be something else. Racism, for you, is an always standing rebuttable presumption, but with a near impossibility to overcome.

[/quote]

Regardless of what you blame racism on, it is still racism. If I stop hiring black people because of WHATEVER, that is a racist move on my part if they qualify otherwise.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

No, you’ve embedded your conclusion in your premise again. If a bias against affirmative action is the cause, then it’s not racism – it’s a discrimination based on a factor that correlates with race. If a bias against affirmative action is the cause, then, absent the existence of affirmative action, that bias would not exist. It would actually be created by the presence of affirmative action and the criteria for affirmative action. Thus, race in and of itself would not be the factor causing the discrimination, because, again, absent the affirmative action it would not exist.[/quote]

If Affirmative Action were the cause of racism, the act is still RACIST. Why is anyone arguing otherwise? If I stop hiring a certain race, it doesn’t matter what I blame it on. It is still a RACIST act. I could easily say that most white people can’t relate to lower income black people therefore I won’t hire any white people in my future practice if I cxhoose to open a practice in a lower income “black” neighborhood. Are you saying this isn’t racist?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Regardless of what you blame racism on, it is still racism. If I stop hiring black people because of WHATEVER, that is a racist move on my part if they qualify otherwise. [/quote]

See, no - and this is what Boston has been gnashing his teeth tryng to explain to you.

It is not racism to not hire a black person because you think they aren’t fit to the job for some reason other than:

  1. I hate black people solely because of their ethnicity
  2. I think black people, because of genetic inferiority, aren’t as good as another ethnicity

The question is: is it plausible that a reason other than racism could cause me to not hire someone with a black name? And the answer is at least, yes, there are other reasonable, rational reasons to consider.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Regardless of what you blame racism on, it is still racism. If I stop hiring black people because of WHATEVER, that is a racist move on my part if they qualify otherwise.

See, no - and this is what Boston has been gnashing his teeth tryng to explain to you.

It is not racism to not hire a black person because you think they aren’t fit to the job for some reason other than:

  1. I hate black people solely because of their ethnicity
  2. I think black people, because of genetic inferiority, aren’t as good as another ethnicity

The question is: is it plausible that a reason other than racism could cause me to not hire someone with a black name? And the answer is at least, yes, there are other reasonable, rational reasons to consider.[/quote]

You don’t see not hiring someone because their name sounds black as racist? Low productivity is what you blame it on regardless of what their resume states or their references? To you, someone could fit the requirements of a job perfectly, but because their name sounds black, you think it is justifiable and non-racist to avoid hiring them for that reason?

[quote]doogie wrote:
Alright, I found the full experiment here:

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mullainathan/papers/emilygreg.pdf

The overall percentage of “white” names getting callbacks was 9.65% compared to 6.45% for “black” names. While statistically significant, it isn’t that big a difference to begin with.

Of the employers, 88.13% treated each set of names equally. 8.39% favored white names, and 3.48% favored black names. Again, pretty equal.

It’s hard to compare the “white” names used to the “black” names used. It isn’t like they used white names like Cleetus, Ellie May or Joe Bob. For many of the black names used, white people assume anyone who would name their kid that way are probably uneducated.

This would affect how they view the resume. Table 8 on page 39 shows “Callback Rate and Mother?s Education by First Name.” Of the mothers who gave their children the distinctively “black” girls’ names, only 61% had completed high school. 91.7% of the mothers who gave their children the distinctively “white” girls’ names had graduated high school. For the boys’ names, 91.7% of the mothers of the white names had graduated high school compared to 66.7% of the mothers of the boys given black names.

The study only measures callbacks, so it is impossible to know who would have gotten the job or what they would have been paid.

In the end, though, there is no evidence that the employers even LOOKED at the names on the resumes. [/quote]

The study measured callbacks of people with the same qualifications.

"white people assume anyone who would name their kid that way are probably uneducated. "

But it says on their application that they are exactly as well educated as the white-named counterpart.

So if given equal education, as the study controlled, that’s a dumbass assumption.

[quote]ExNole wrote:

So if given equal education, as the study controlled, that’s a dumbass assumption.[/quote]

I don’t understand how they are justifying it in their own heads. If someone meets all requirements for a job and there is NO indication that they will somehow have low productivity, to assume they will based on their name which is directly related to race is RACIST. You can try to blame it on 5,000 different reasons, but if it comes down to a bias towards a certain racial group in society when all other factors are equal, it is racist.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Regardless of what you blame racism on, it is still racism. If I stop hiring black people because of WHATEVER, that is a racist move on my part if they qualify otherwise.

See, no - and this is what Boston has been gnashing his teeth tryng to explain to you.

It is not racism to not hire a black person because you think they aren’t fit to the job for some reason other than:

  1. I hate black people solely because of their ethnicity
  2. I think black people, because of genetic inferiority, aren’t as good as another ethnicity

The question is: is it plausible that a reason other than racism could cause me to not hire someone with a black name? And the answer is at least, yes, there are other reasonable, rational reasons to consider.

You don’t see not hiring someone because their name sounds black as racist? Low productivity is what you blame it on regardless of what their resume states or their references? To you, someone could fit the requirements of a job perfectly, but because their name sounds black, you think it is justifiable and non-racist to avoid hiring them for that reason?[/quote]

It’s more likely that their name sounded like it was given by someone uneducated, not just Black. Given two exact resumes, the (correct) assumption that one applicant comes from a family with a better history of education can be a deciding factor. Something HAS to be the deciding factor, so why isn’t that a valid one.

And if the study had used names given by white parents who only graduated high school at 66%, the results would have been different. Jethro is not getting that executive position.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

No, you’ve embedded your conclusion in your premise again. If a bias against affirmative action is the cause, then it’s not racism – it’s a discrimination based on a factor that correlates with race. If a bias against affirmative action is the cause, then, absent the existence of affirmative action, that bias would not exist. It would actually be created by the presence of affirmative action and the criteria for affirmative action. Thus, race in and of itself would not be the factor causing the discrimination, because, again, absent the affirmative action it would not exist.

Professor X wrote:

If Affirmative Action were the cause of racism, the act is still RACIST. Why is anyone arguing otherwise? If I stop hiring a certain race, it doesn’t matter what I blame it on. It is still a RACIST act. I could easily say that most white people can’t relate to lower income black people therefore I won’t hire any white people in my future practice if I cxhoose to open a practice in a lower income “black” neighborhood. Are you saying this isn’t racist? [/quote]

Yes, I think you’re finally getting part of the point. It’s only racist if race is the actual cause. If there is another cause, it’s not racism – it’s a disparate effect caused by something other than race. If the cause isn’t a discrimination because of race, then it’s not racism.

As to your example, if there were a measured effect for your belief that was caused by something other than the fact they were white, then it wouldn’t be racist. In fact, what you described sounds more like a cultural bias than a racial bias.

To return to my point, I’m not saying that racism isn’t the cause, because you’d need more analysis to do so. But you’d also need more analysis to say it is a cause. It’s likely to me that there are multiple causes – probably including the affirmative action effect I described, perhaps including some cultural bias separate from that based on the socioeconomic data Doogie and Thunder had, and that also might include some measure of racism.

But you, on the other hand, think racism must be the cause, just because it could be the cause.

[quote]doogie wrote:
It’s more likely that their name sounded like it was given by someone uneducated, not just Black. Given two exact resumes, the (correct) assumption that one applicant comes from a family with a better history of education can be a deciding factor. Something HAS to be the deciding factor, so why isn’t that a valid one.

And if the study had used names given by white parents who only graduated high school at 66%, the results would have been different. Jethro is not getting that executive position.
[/quote]

What seems to be missed by some of you, is that MANY black families are largely first generation college students currently. That means being biased according to name for this reason can still have a mostly racial impact making this a racist decision. I am the first doctor in my family. My family members don’t have anything to do with my productivity or abilities so to use my family as a reason to not hire me is simply wrong. Because it is based on names that sound black, it is also racist.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Yes, I think you’re finally getting part of the point. [/quote]

Dude, don’t talk down to me. Your “point” is invalid. I understand all parts of it.

[quote]
It’s only racist if race is the actual cause. If there is another cause, it’s not racism – it’s a disparate effect caused by something other than race. If the cause isn’t a discrimination because of race, then it’s not racism.[/quote]

Bullshit. Regardless of what you blame it on, if the impact is on a racial segment of the population, it is racist.

[quote]
As to your example, if there were a measured effect for your belief that was caused by something other than the fact they were white, then it wouldn’t be racist. In fact, what you described sounds more like a cultural bias than a racial bias.[/quote]

No, if I choose some reason not to hire someone that is ONLY exhibited by white people, it becomes racist. If I choose not to hire anyone named Cindy, when it is usually white women who hold that name, it has a racial impact. If I choose not to hire white people because I believe that many of them will not be able to relate to a largely lower income black environment, it is racist.

No, I think it is racist because it only affects one racial segment of the population. That isn’t an assumption. It is what is happening.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Yes, I think you’re finally getting part of the point.

Professor X wrote:
Dude, don’t talk down to me. Your “point” is invalid. I understand all parts of it.[/quote]

I don’t think so, but I’m happy to agree that there will be no more talking down to each other, Professor “How can you not get this when it was already explained so flawlessly by me” X.

See above.

Professor X,

Here is an interesting article that illustrates my point. It’s by a black, liberal Harvard professor, who is examining the reason why blacks, and particularly black males, as a group when measured overall show up so greatly in poverty statistics. (See this article: Plight Deepens for Black Men, Studies Warn - The New York Times ). The statistics show that black males are disproportionately affected by poverty and lack of education. Is this caused by racism – is this a racist issue simply because of this?

The author thinks not – he specifically points to some cultural factors to which he attributes the problem. He may be right, or he may be wrong - and he attacks the idea that an aversion to “acting white” is the problem. But he is looking into causation, and not assuming automatically that “racism” is the cause for a racially disproportionate effect.

[ADDENDUM: I suppose I need to note that I don’t agree with each and every word in the article, but it is interesting – contrary to some people on this site may think, I enjoy reading intelligent pieces with which I may not agree]

March 26, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
A Poverty of the Mind
By ORLANDO PATTERSON

Cambridge, Mass.

SEVERAL recent studies have garnered wide attention for reconfirming the tragic disconnection of millions of black youths from the American mainstream. But they also highlighted another crisis: the failure of social scientists to adequately explain the problem, and their inability to come up with any effective strategy to deal with it.

The main cause for this shortcoming is a deep-seated dogma that has prevailed in social science and policy circles since the mid-1960’s: the rejection of any explanation that invokes a group’s cultural attributes ? its distinctive attitudes, values and predispositions, and the resulting behavior of its members ? and the relentless preference for relying on structural factors like low incomes, joblessness, poor schools and bad housing.

Harry Holzer, an economist at Georgetown University and a co-author of one of the recent studies, typifies this attitude. Joblessness, he feels, is due to largely weak schooling, a lack of reading and math skills at a time when such skills are increasingly required even for blue-collar jobs, and the poverty of black neighborhoods. Unable to find jobs, he claims, black males turn to illegal activities, especially the drug trade and chronic drug use, and often end up in prison. He also criticizes the practice of withholding child-support payments from the wages of absentee fathers who do find jobs, telling The Times that to these men, such levies “amount to a tax on earnings.”

His conclusions are shared by scholars like Ronald B. Mincy of Columbia, the author of a study called “Black Males Left Behind,” and Gary Orfield of Harvard, who asserts that America is “pumping out boys with no honest alternative.”

This is all standard explanatory fare. And, as usual, it fails to answer the important questions. Why are young black men doing so poorly in school that they lack basic literacy and math skills? These scholars must know that countless studies by educational experts, going all the way back to the landmark report by James Coleman of Johns Hopkins University in 1966, have found that poor schools, per se, do not explain why after 10 years of education a young man remains illiterate.

Nor have studies explained why, if someone cannot get a job, he turns to crime and drug abuse. One does not imply the other. Joblessness is rampant in Latin America and India, but the mass of the populations does not turn to crime.

And why do so many young unemployed black men have children ? several of them ? which they have no resources or intention to support? And why, finally, do they murder each other at nine times the rate of white youths?

What’s most interesting about the recent spate of studies is that analysts seem at last to be recognizing what has long been obvious to anyone who takes culture seriously: socioeconomic factors are of limited explanatory power. Thus it’s doubly depressing that the conclusions they draw and the prescriptions they recommend remain mired in traditional socioeconomic thinking.

What has happened, I think, is that the economic boom years of the 90’s and one of the most successful policy initiatives in memory ? welfare reform ? have made it impossible to ignore the effects of culture. The Clinton administration achieved exactly what policy analysts had long said would pull black men out of their torpor: the economy grew at a rapid pace, providing millions of new jobs at all levels. Yet the jobless black youths simply did not turn up to take them. Instead, the opportunity was seized in large part by immigrants ? including many blacks ? mainly from Latin America and the Caribbean.

One oft-repeated excuse for the failure of black Americans to take these jobs ? that they did not offer a living wage ? turned out to be irrelevant. The sociologist Roger Waldinger of the University of California at Los Angeles, for example, has shown that in New York such jobs offered an opportunity to the chronically unemployed to join the market and to acquire basic work skills that they later transferred to better jobs, but that the takers were predominantly immigrants.

Why have academics been so allergic to cultural explanations? Until the recent rise of behavioral economics, most economists have simply not taken non-market forces seriously. But what about the sociologists and other social scientists who ought to have known better? Three gross misconceptions about culture explain the neglect.

First is the pervasive idea that cultural explanations inherently blame the victim; that they focus on internal behavioral factors and, as such, hold people responsible for their poverty, rather than putting the onus on their deprived environment. (It hasn’t helped that many conservatives do actually put forth this view.)

But this argument is utterly bogus. To hold someone responsible for his behavior is not to exclude any recognition of the environmental factors that may have induced the problematic behavior in the first place. Many victims of child abuse end up behaving in self-destructive ways; to point out the link between their behavior and the destructive acts is in no way to deny the causal role of their earlier victimization and the need to address it.

Likewise, a cultural explanation of black male self-destructiveness addresses not simply the immediate connection between their attitudes and behavior and the undesired outcomes, but explores the origins and changing nature of these attitudes, perhaps over generations, in their brutalized past. It is impossible to understand the predatory sexuality and irresponsible fathering behavior of young black men without going back deep into their collective past.

Second, it is often assumed that cultural explanations are wholly deterministic, leaving no room for human agency. This, too, is nonsense. Modern students of culture have long shown that while it partly determines behavior, it also enables people to change behavior. People use their culture as a frame for understanding their world, and as a resource to do much of what they want. The same cultural patterns can frame different kinds of behavior, and by failing to explore culture at any depth, analysts miss a great opportunity to re-frame attitudes in a way that encourages desirable behavior and outcomes.

Third, it is often assumed that cultural patterns cannot change ? the old “cake of custom” saw. This too is nonsense. Indeed, cultural patterns are often easier to change than the economic factors favored by policy analysts, and American history offers numerous examples.

My favorite is Jim Crow, that deeply entrenched set of cultural and institutional practices built up over four centuries of racist domination and exclusion of blacks by whites in the South. Nothing could have been more cultural than that. And yet America was able to dismantle the entire system within a single generation, so much so that today blacks are now making a historic migratory shift back to the South, which they find more congenial than the North. (At the same time, economic inequality, which the policy analysts love to discuss, has hardened in the South, like the rest of America.)

So what are some of the cultural factors that explain the sorry state of young black men? They aren’t always obvious. Sociological investigation has found, in fact, that one popular explanation ? that black children who do well are derided by fellow blacks for “acting white” ? turns out to be largely false, except for those attending a minority of mixed-race schools.

An anecdote helps explain why: Several years ago, one of my students went back to her high school to find out why it was that almost all the black girls graduated and went to college whereas nearly all the black boys either failed to graduate or did not go on to college. Distressingly, she found that all the black boys knew the consequences of not graduating and going on to college (“We’re not stupid!” they told her indignantly).

SO why were they flunking out? Their candid answer was that what sociologists call the “cool-pose culture” of young black men was simply too gratifying to give up. For these young men, it was almost like a drug, hanging out on the street after school, shopping and dressing sharply, sexual conquests, party drugs, hip-hop music and culture, the fact that almost all the superstar athletes and a great many of the nation’s best entertainers were black.

Not only was living this subculture immensely fulfilling, the boys said, it also brought them a great deal of respect from white youths. This also explains the otherwise puzzling finding by social psychologists that young black men and women tend to have the highest levels of self-esteem of all ethnic groups, and that their self-image is independent of how badly they were doing in school.

I call this the Dionysian trap for young black men. The important thing to note about the subculture that ensnares them is that it is not disconnected from the mainstream culture. To the contrary, it has powerful support from some of America’s largest corporations. Hip-hop, professional basketball and homeboy fashions are as American as cherry pie. Young white Americans are very much into these things, but selectively; they know when it is time to turn off Fifty Cent and get out the SAT prep book.

For young black men, however, that culture is all there is ? or so they think. Sadly, their complete engagement in this part of the American cultural mainstream, which they created and which feeds their pride and self-respect, is a major factor in their disconnection from the socioeconomic mainstream.

Of course, such attitudes explain only a part of the problem. In academia, we need a new, multidisciplinary approach toward understanding what makes young black men behave so self-destructively. Collecting transcripts of their views and rationalizations is a useful first step, but won’t help nearly as much as the recent rash of scholars with tape-recorders seem to think. Getting the facts straight is important, but for decades we have been overwhelmed with statistics on black youths, and running more statistical regressions is beginning to approach the point of diminishing returns to knowledge.

The tragedy unfolding in our inner cities is a time-slice of a deep historical process that runs far back through the cataracts and deluge of our racist past. Most black Americans have by now, miraculously, escaped its consequences. The disconnected fifth languishing in the ghettos is the remains. Too much is at stake for us to fail to understand the plight of these young men. For them, and for the rest of us.

Orlando Patterson, a professor of sociology at Harvard, is the author of “Rituals of Blood: Consequences of Slavery in Two American Centuries.”

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
In other words, racism is discrimination [u]based on race.[/u] [/quote]

Nice use of a dictionary, however racism is also discrimination AGAINST a certain race. That just happens to be what denying someone for a job based on an ethnic sounding name is.

[quote]
Another way to say that would be caused by race. To distinguish further, that would mean not cause by cultural factors, socioeconomic factors, or other factors, even if those factors tend to correlate with race.[/quote]

Because many of these factors correlate directly to race, you can not try to seperate them as if it is honest to avoid acknowledging this fact. If I have something against “kinky hair”, only a fool would assume this had nothing to do with race or didn’t have a direct affect on a certain race.

[quote]
For example, if a racial/ethnic group immigrated to the U.S. that was largely rural culturally, and generally liked to keep live barnyard animals on their property, and people supported legislation to stop this group from doing so, and this group was the only or the large majority of those doing so in that area, that would not be a racist endeavor.[/quote]

If this legislation somehow denied that group of a place in society, a job, or in some way disrespected them and placed them beneath others according to status, it would be racist…which is exactly the case in denying someone a job based one factor directly related to only ONE race.

[quote]

Well, I suppose that would be true, if you were basing it on a racial criterion. However, you said you were basing it on a cultural reason that was correlated to race. Given it’s your hypothetical, you can specify what you like. If you specify it’s entirely based on race, then by definition it’s racist. But if you are adding other factors, it could be partially based on those factors and partially based on race.[/quote]

So, as long as someone can call racism something else, it is justified? That is basically what you are saying. As long as I don’t mention “race” directly, I can effectively be racist openly even though my actions only affect a certain race?

If that impact degrades that group or denies them access to certain aspects of society, it most definitely becomes racist.

You do the same.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X,

Here is an interesting article that illustrates my point.
[/quote]

How does this illustrate your point? I have an education and have no jail record. I also have no illegitimate children. If I am denied a job because of my name, how is this not racist? You are saying that someone should disregard my resume and base my qualifications on whether my name sounds black? It makes sense to equate a black sounding name with poor performance even though someone matches all qualifications? HOW is this making sense to you?

This article isn’t showing my name equates to poor performance. It is talking about cultural factors. If my resume states that I am qualified, how could someone come to some conclusion about my culture that has NOTHING to do with what I have accomplished?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

But here’s the bottom line for you: disparate impact on a particular race does not prove racism. Particularly when race is highly correlative to other factors that could very easily play a part in causing the phenomenon that leads to the disparate impact.[/quote]

Well said, and just to add, that if racial impact was the same thing as racist, then Affirmative Action would be ipso facto a racist policy, as would any policy that denied felons the right to a job or to vote.

If I refuse to hire anyone with a criminal background, regardless of their resume, and blacks are more likely statistically to have a criminal background, my hiring policy would be racist under Professor X’s theory, even though I do not believe that blacks are inferior nor do I hate black people because of their ethnicity. That is lunacy.

Racial impact does not automatically prove racist intent.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
In other words, racism is discrimination [u]based on race.[/u]

Professor X wrote:
Nice use of a dictionary, however racism is also discrimination AGAINST a certain race. That just happens to be what denying someone for a job based on an ethnic sounding name is.[/quote]

No, if the ethnic-sounding name leads to discrimination that isn’t based on race, then it is not racism.

You are arguing that anything that has an effect on a certain race must be caused by racial discrimination, and that is flatly incorrect.

The effect does not necessarily imply the cause. To repeat what I wrote above, just because racial discrimination could cause a racially disparate effect does not mean racial discrimination did cause the racially disparate effect. To put it in the language of logic again, “if A then B” does not equal “if B then A.”

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Another way to say that would be caused by race. To distinguish further, that would mean not cause by cultural factors, socioeconomic factors, or other factors, even if those factors tend to correlate with race.

Professor X wrote:
Because many of these factors correlate directly to race, you can not try to seperate them as if it is honest to avoid acknowledging this fact. If I have something against “kinky hair”, only a fool would assume this had nothing to do with race or didn’t have a direct affect on a certain race.[/quote]

No, “kinky hair” would be a genetically determined and racial trait, whereas choosing an ethnic name represents cultural, and, apparently, socio-economic factors, as well as being correlated to race.

You can only separate those factors that are in fact distinct.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
For example, if a racial/ethnic group immigrated to the U.S. that was largely rural culturally, and generally liked to keep live barnyard animals on their property, and people supported legislation to stop this group from doing so, and this group was the only or the large majority of those doing so in that area, that would not be a racist endeavor.

Professor X wrote:
If this legislation somehow denied that group of a place in society, a job, or in some way disrespected them and placed them beneath others according to status, it would be racist…which is exactly the case in denying someone a job based one factor directly related to only ONE race.[/quote]

No, again, the effect does not neccessitate the cause. Just because one group suffers a disparate impact does not mean that it is racist.

All you’re arguing is that effect – disrespect, not getting a job, etc. – determines the cause, racism. And that is flatly wrong.

This principle is embedded in logic, as well as in the laws. If you have a facially neutral law that has a disparate impact, the law itself is not flawed (although it would make sense to check and make sure it is applied in a neutral fashion).

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Well, I suppose that would be true, if you were basing it on a racial criterion. However, you said you were basing it on a cultural reason that was correlated to race. Given it’s your hypothetical, you can specify what you like. If you specify it’s entirely based on race, then by definition it’s racist. But if you are adding other factors, it could be partially based on those factors and partially based on race.

Professor X wrote:
So, as long as someone can call racism something else, it is justified? That is basically what you are saying. As long as I don’t mention “race” directly, I can effectively be racist openly even though my actions only affect a certain race?[/quote]

No, if they were calling racism something else, that would not be justified. However, if it wasn’t racism and you’re calling it racism, that doesn’t make it worse than it is, either. Nor does trying to label something that isn’t racism make it racism.

Once again, this if flatly incorrect. Just because racism is a possible cause of a disparate impact does not mean that racism is the cause of a disparate impact.

And, quite frankly, assuming racism is the cause if it is not only gets in the way of ever identifying the actual cause and attempting to solve the actual problem.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X,

Here is an interesting article that illustrates my point. \

Professor X wrote:
How does this illustrate your point? I have an education and have no jail record. I also have no illegitimate children. If I am denied a job because of my name, how is this not racist? You are saying that someone should disregard my resume and base my qualifications on whether my name sounds black? It makes sense to equate a black sounding name with poor performance even though someone matches all qualifications? HOW is this making sense to you?

This article isn’t showing my name equates to poor performance. It is talking about cultural factors. If my resume states that I am qualified, how could someone come to some conclusion about my culture that has NOTHING to do with what I have accomplished?[/quote]

It illustrates my concept because it looks at a disparate impact and looks at a multiplicity of causes, and does not assume automatically that it is caused by racism.

BTW, what does your personal education and lack of criminal record have to do with anything? There’s the whole-to-part logical fallacy, and there is its corrolary, part-to-whole.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X,

Here is an interesting article that illustrates my point. \

Professor X wrote:
How does this illustrate your point? I have an education and have no jail record. I also have no illegitimate children. If I am denied a job because of my name, how is this not racist? You are saying that someone should disregard my resume and base my qualifications on whether my name sounds black? It makes sense to equate a black sounding name with poor performance even though someone matches all qualifications? HOW is this making sense to you?

This article isn’t showing my name equates to poor performance. It is talking about cultural factors. If my resume states that I am qualified, how could someone come to some conclusion about my culture that has NOTHING to do with what I have accomplished?[/quote]

And, this is not talking down to you, but this whole conversation is reminding me why it is so difficult to teach MCAT verbal classes – you definitely read like a doctor.