[quote]ninearms wrote:
Sifu wrote:
I haven’t read the Dailymail for much more than two years. What I have seen from their content is they have no problem pointing out some of the sheer idiocy that is going on over there. I have seen articles in the mail covered by other papers, so I don’t think the problem is their accuracy. I think the problem is people don’t want to face up to what is happening to the UK.
You really have no idea what is going on in the UK. Everything you say is so far removed from fact (and usually at least 5 years out of date) because the only place you seem to be able to obtain your information is the Daily Mail, the most right-wing newspaper in the country which regularly prints stories based on guesses, wishful thinking, or plain deception. Half the time the headline says something that (A) isn’t true, and (B) is subsequently disproved by the story itself. The fact that you can’t see anything wrong with what they publish speaks volumes. [/quote]
It’s not the only place I get my news. Where do you get your news, The Guardian? You are making accusations about the Dailymail but you aren’t giving examples. [quote]
Sifu wrote:
Bigotry is an accusation that is so wildly thrown around Britain these days that it has no meaning. It is a convenient excuse for not dealing the big problems Britain is having with immigration and race relations.
Britain doesn’t have a problem with immigration or race relations. [/quote]
Really? If there is no problem why has Britain had so many race riots? And why are they worried about more? What about the London bombings or the attack on the nightclubs or the attack on the airport? What about the stagflation that is going through the country now?
I know many who would disagree with you. I definately think you are a Guardian reader. [quote]
Sifu wrote:
Ever since the end of world war 2 the liberals have been treating Britain just like it is the United States when it comes to immigration.
What? Eh? [/quote]
Homeboy don’t even try that shit. If you live over there you should be well aware of the mass immigration that started after world war two and how many people aren’t happy about it. [quote]
Sifu wrote:
The problem is Britain isn’t like the US in some important ways. First is size, Britain has 60 million people crammed into an area the size of Michigan. It does not have a lot of room to be a melting pot like the US was.
There is plenty of space. 1/4 of the UK population is crammed into the South East corner. Scotland is fucking empty. [/quote]
That’s right everyone crams into London and the area around it. It is also more than a quarter there are over 15 million in London. That is where most of the people live because that is where most of the jobs and services are. That is why a studio apartment in London can cost $1.5 million.
Scotland is fucking empty because it is just below the artic circle. It is the same reason why Canada has one tenth of the United States population. It is why a good number of people from the tropics like the Jamaicans who were shipped up there died from colds and respiratory illnesses. Immigrants don’t want to live up there because it is cold, miserable and unemployment is high.
That is why everyone crams into the South which is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. It is not quite as bad as Japan but it is getting there.
There is also more to what is happening with immigration than scarce land and housing resources getting used up. There is also the ability of the population to absorb the newcomers without breaking down the indigenous culture. The British people used to be very orderly and law abiding. But not anymore. Bringing in large numbers of people from areas where there is no law and order has had an affect.
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I assume you have no problems with immigration into the US, seeing as away from the coasts the entire country is pretty much empty. [/quote]
America is bigger than Europe and about three quarters the population. But even here there is a problem with the population absorbing large numbers of immigrants. ie Los Angeles is having a problem with Mexicans lynching Blacks.
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Sifu wrote:
Plus America being a melting pot is a bit of a myth. The majority of the people in the American melting pot in were white, European, Christians whose ancestors had been part of the Roman empire so they had a lot in common, that expedited matters greatly. What the liberals have forced Britain into is much more complicated and they have irrepperably fucked it up by discouraging people from assimilating into the culture.
There is a sizeable indigenous population that is being forced to accept foreign communities being setup in their midst. The English are being driven off of their land just like what happened to the American Indians. If someone says something about it they are a bigot.
(1) There is no indigenous population. The UK is a mongrel nation comprised of the descendents of the numerous other nations which have invaded it, and 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The number of foreign born people in the UK: under 5 million, or just over 8% (the top 3: India, Ireland and Poland). There have been immigrant communities in the UK for the past 40 years.
Nobody is “forced” to accept them. (2) The idea that the English (I guess you don’t count the Scottish and Welsh, right?) are being driven off their land like the Native Americans is beyond ridiculous. The fact that you think it’s fine to compare a Polish deli opening down the road with the systematic genocide of an entire population again speaks volumes. [/quote]
The English are mainly Normans who came over in 1066 exterminated the Saxons and drove what was left of the Celts up into Scotland Wales and Ireland. They have been on that land for almost a thousand years and have established themselves as a distinct people. Over here in the US English Americans don’t describe themselves as mongrels, they say they’re English.
Depending upon the group those second and third generation descendants of immigrants have had varying levels of assimilation. They have been forced upon people who have been driven out of their homes. That is what happened to my grandmother.
Her whole neighborhood went black and she was the last white person left until one of her black neighbors broke in and beat the fuck out of her. We had to move her out of the house she had raised a family and gone through the Blitz in and put her into nursing.
Your figure of less than five million is questionable. The government doesn’t even know how many immigrants have come into the country because they haven’t kept control of the borders. There are over two million Poles. There are two million Muslims. 20-25% of the newborn babies are born to foreign born mothers.
What happened to the American Indians was genocidal but I would not call it systematic. Besides the Indian wars ended a hundred years ago. There is a lot more that happened to the Indians than a bunch of them got killed. There still are Indians living in America. But they have been reduced from being the people who ruled this land to being impoverished, living on reservations, an underclass who generally are looked down upon by the immigrants who have taken over their homeland.
This is exactly what is happening in Britain now. English people with college education and job skills are using their earning potential to get out of Britain. They are being replaced with college educated immigrants who look upon the English as lazy alcoholics. There are a lot of British businesses where the middle management is increasingly foreign.
Out of the immigrant groups the Poles are the least of the problems. They are white Christians who used to belong to the Holy Roman empire. They can assimilate in one generation without trying. The government has lied about the Poles though. They are not all unskilled uneducated and unable to anything other than the lowliest of manual labor jobs that the British won’t do.
A lot of them have college education or job skills, that have served to undermine wage growth in the UK. It is why Britain is now going through stagflation, where prices for everything are going up while wages are stagnant or going down. Pretty soon Britain is going to have to bring back the misery index. [quote]
Sifu wrote:
They have been given the ultimatum that if they don’t like what is happening to their homeland then they should leave, because they are bigots and they are not wanted there.
Who has delivered thus ultimatum? Is it the mysterious “they” figure people love to refer to? [/quote]
The liberals have forced these circumstances upon the UK. The liberals refuse to listen to anyone who speaks out against what they have been doing to the country for the last sixty years. If someone speaks out against it the liberals play dumb and act like they are making things up then trash their reputation by calling them a racist or a bigot. [quote]
Sifu wrote:
Personally I don’t think it is bigotry to question why the labour party thinks it is such an imperative to bring in as many immigrants as possible. There are three million unemployed and over eight million on some kind of welfare. It is not like the extra population is needed for the economy.
(1) The Labour Party and the Labour Government are not the same thing. (2) The Labour Government doesn’t think it’s imperative to bring in as amny immigrants as possible. (3) I suggest you check your stats. They’re from the Thatcher era it would appear. Current UK unemployment is 1.62 million. The number of people employed in the UK is 30 million, the highest since comparable records began in 1971. [/quote]
Immigration has been a hallmark of labour governments since the end of world war two. Thatcher did put an end to the mass immigration policy the Labour government had been pursuing. It’s what put her into power. It continued into the Major era. But then so called Nu Labour came into power in 97 and they increased immigration to the highest level in history.
Nice try at being disingenuous too bad for you I have family who are on the dole. That 1.62 million figure is only the number of unemployed who are on Jobseeker’ Allowance. There are more than that on “Income Support” which the government has increasingly used because that way they don’t have to count unemployed people on income support as unemployed.
But just for the sake of arguement lets assume your immigration and unemployed numbers are accurate. If there are 1.62 million unemployed why take in 5 million immigrants with more on the way? wouldn’t it make more sense to get all the unemployed to work?
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Sifu wrote:
Many immigrants don’t have a job to go to. Instead they just go right onto welfare. Taxes are some of the worlds highest but they have to hock their childrens futures to pay for welfare and the NHS as a result. But if anyone points out what is happening or asks difficult questions about it, they are a bigot.
(1) This isn’t true. If you look at the largest group of immigrants over the past few years, the Polish, you’ll see that they actually have a higher employment rate than British-born people (cue the “stealing British jobs” rant), and under the terms of their entry into the EU are not allowed to claim benefits. (2) “Hocking their children’s futures”? Education is free here you know. We don’t have to pay tens of thousands of pounds in tuition fees. (3) You think the NHS is a bad thing??? [/quote]
I’ve lived in a neighborhood called Poletown. They have a great work ethic. If I needed my furnace fixed, an electrician or a plumber it was a great place to be, because those Poles were not only very reasonably priced but they took an old world pride in their work. My accountant was Polish.
The Poles who have moved to Britain and Ireland are not there to skive off of the dole for the rest of their lives. Instead many of them are there to get a nest egg together so they can do something entreprenurial back in the old country. The only problem I can see with the Poles is they have education or job skills that are pushing down wages for the British. This is all because Labour did not sign up for a limit on the number of Poles who could immigrate when Poland entered the EU. But at least they can assimilate well and they serve to offset the muslims.
The number of employed is at it’s highest but so is the overall population, so of course it is going to be up. However all the new jobs created since labour came to power is equal to the number of immigrants, who usually are considered more desireable as employees.
Education isn’t free anywhere, somebody has to pay for it somehow. Over here it is primarily paid for through property taxes. The public schools don’t charge tuition but we do pay for it trough taxes.
The NHS has it’s good points and it’s shortcomings. Right now the system is running short of money. With people unemployed and underemployed it doesn’t make sense to stretch the resources even thiner. Not all the care is free either. People in nursing have to pay for it themselves if they have any money. We had to sell my grandmothers house to pay for her care. Just this year my cousins had to sell their mothers house to pay for her care. Everyone in my family has had at least one tooth fucked up by an NHS dentist!
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Sifu wrote:
But maybe you can prove me wrong ninearms. Since you want to accuse the Dailymail of bigotry why don’t you bring up some examples for us to examine and debate if they are bigoted or if you are unfairly accusing the mail in order to discredit them. [/quote]
I’ll have to get back to you on this link my computer isn’t cooperating.
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Sifu wrote:
Those were two of the big issues for the Irish, they are a catholic country and neutrality makes sense for such a small country. However speaking as a person who is half Irish I would have to say don’t underestimate the Irish will for self determination.
We didn’t fight the British for four hundred years just to turn it all over the the EU which is dominated by big counries like Britain a mere eighty years later.
Britain dominates the EU? Really? You should probably check you copy of the Mail there. [/quote]
There were rules like the unanimity rule that were put in place in order to protect the small countries like Ireland from the big countries like Germany France Britain. The Irish rejection of the EU constitution renamed amending treaty was supposed to be the end of the ratification process. Yet Britain is going ahead with ratification without the referendum that was promised in the labour parties election manifesto. Germany France are trying to dominate and so are the British.
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Sifu wrote:
Then there is the constitution/ “amending treaty”. There is a saying, “the devil is in the details”. With over three hundred pages writen in the legal language thick enough that even a lawyer could barely understand it, there was plenty of room for devilry.
Good reasoning. Let’s vote against something we haven’t read because of something that might be in there. Of course, non-morons could actually read it… [/quote]
There is a big difference between reading something and being able to understand it. Especially when it is several hundred pages of legal text. The United States didn’t need several hundred pages of constitution to be a successfully functioning country.
The EU constitution is a lot of reading in a very dry subject. You calling people morons for not reading all of it betrays the concieted arrogance of someone who is pro EU.
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm
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Sifu wrote:
When the American founding fathers wrote their constitution many of them were lawyers who could have laid on the legalese across hundreds of pages, but they didn’t. It takes intelligence to pare something down to it’s most essential elements. Which is why the American constitution was an inspired act of genius and the EU treaty was an uninspired load of crap.
Er…but it’s had 27 amendments… [/quote]
300+ pages divided by 27 amendments would equal about eleven pages per amendment. The first ten amendments are known as the bill of rights. They can be written on one page which people can read and understand. How many pages does the EU human rights act cover?
Instinct is innate intelligence. When politicians do not use clear simple to understand language people are not going to trust them. When it comes to politicians it is healthy and smart to have some distrust and suspicion.
Your final words make you sound bitter that your side didn’t have it’s way.