[quote]ephrem wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]ephrem wrote:[quote]pat wrote: Absolutes DO NOT exist in the physical world.[/quote]In the physical world death is absolute.[/quote]The physical word itself is not absolute. [/quote]Please show me conclusively that this statement is true.[/quote]There is no such thing as certainty to us as finite autonomous critters Ephrem. Show me conclusively that 2+2=4. See you have a some intellectual honesty though. Like Elder Forlife. You’ll just tell me that NOTHING can be known for certain to anyone including me and then go on living a life pickled in certainty. Of course you will. Groo said so and I couldn’t agree more.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Take one item, and then take another single item; now you have two items. It’s not that hard.
So, now you, go ahead and show me how the physical world itself is not absolute.
Sorry, I’m in the middle of 10 things right now. I phrased that wrong. Yes, that’s how you live, so do I, but from whence arises this certainty and why are you bound inextricably to it? Account for me the origin of the intellectual mechanism by which the laws of logic unavoidably function. Beyond the linguistic symbols. How do we know what 2 plus equals and 4 are at all in a universe where only your physical items exist? Are they absolute in themselves? Do we give them existence and meaning merely by imagining they exist? If you cannot demonstrate to me that the utterly abstract certainty of two items and two more providing the utterly abstract certainty of a sum of four is contained in and originates from matter itself then your belief in them at all either requires faith in an immaterial source OR faith that they DO originate from matter despite the fact that you have no proof to that effect.
The point is that everything everybody thinks all the time is one long act of faith. No I can’t prove to you on your basis that the physical is not absolute. On your basis I can’t prove anything. Neither can you. When faith is placed in the fact of our creation in the image of a logical God, He is the explanation for our certainty, the laws of logic and everything else including the stuff we’ll never understand which is most of reality.
Why does 2+2=4 to me? Because the designer and manufacturer of my mind has decreed it so. Will you accept that because I’ve convinced you? I hope not. That would be a false conversion. Only the very Spirit of this God can make you live so you can see. I’m simply commanded to love you enough to tell you. I do and I am. The second I dilute His Word with paganism like evolution, I am proclaiming to you the superiority of the mind of man over the mind of God which is the very essence of the sin of Genesis 3. If I am faithfully conveying the truth of His Word in these forums, THAT is my only standard and concern. IF NOBODY listens, that’s not my problem. My mission is to please Him by my obedience not to spiritually snuggle with His enemies by lying to them about how delusional man made idols are perfectly compatible with the plain declarations of His Word to the contrary.
Like I say. This country is breathing it’s last right now because the church here has betrayed her God by whoredom with the world on very level starting with evolution. I know. “whew, this is one messed up religious wacko we have here.” It’s no fun for me that people think that, but fine. All of this darkness will be exposed by His flawless and inescapable light. It is right now.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
We don’t trust the brain’s reasoning without experiments, tests and research that proves [which means a very large degree of certainty] that something is true, or works a certain way.
If we can repeat an experiment and get the same results everytime, a hypothesis is proven to be true with a very large degree of certainty.
To put religous faith on the same footing as scientific endevours because both rely on faith is disinginuous because if you hold religous faith to the same standards as you would scientific theory, there’d be very little left of religious faith.
[/quote]
Are you trying to use science to test the presuppositions of science?[/quote]
Reality is what it is. There’s little we can change about that. We can test and try to find out why or how something is happening the way it’s happening and we can get some results and understanding that way.
The [partial] answers science offers to certain problems, evolution for instance, are to me far more satisfying than saying that god did it in 6 days.
Wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]
To use science to prove science right or wrong is circular reasoning. The fact is that axioms and presuppositions of science are at some level taken on faith that they will lead to ‘fitter’ knowledge. That is, knowledge that is more fit to solve various quandaries about the natural world.
And I do believe the methodologies of natural sciences are the best for discovering natural phenomena.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Who says they’re random chemical accidents? What basis are you asserting this on?
It sounds like something you read that “sounded smart” and you’ve been parroting it ever since.
I think it would be in your best interest to go learn some basic chemistry, then learn some organic chemistry, then learn some biochemistry. If not for the sake of having a better understanding of these “random chemical accidents”, then to simply expand your knowledge of what I feel are, very valuable sciences.[/quote]
You need to read what I posted properly. Here is the sequence,
- Universe explodes into existence, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
- Some time later, first living cell evolves from non-living chemicals, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
- Some time later, humans evolve from non-humans, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
Therefore, you and your brain are the result of random chemical accidents. Further, as a materialist, you have to believe that your mind is simply a part of your brain (not immaterial). Since your brain is simply following the fixed laws of chemistry, why would you trust it’s thoughts to accurately reflect the truth.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< And I do believe the methodologies of natural sciences are the best for discovering natural phenomena.[/quote]So do I. Of course they are. I have very good reasons for believing this. “Man has throughout his history, by virtue of the remaining though sinfully broken image of God, been so absolutely RIGHT about so very much of what he’s observed and published. While, due to this brokenness in sin, being so ABSOLUTELY wrong about how and why he’s right about it. This has led him to utterly corrupt and perverse conclusions even from the things he’s right about.”
[quote]ephrem wrote:
We don’t trust the brain’s reasoning without experiments, tests and research that proves [which means a very large degree of certainty] that something is true, or works a certain way.
If we can repeat an experiment and get the same results everytime, a hypothesis is proven to be true with a very large degree of certainty.
[/quote]
My point is that your trust in the brains reasoning powers is circular. In order to prove that it works you have to assume it works before you start, the very definition of circular reasoning.
In order to do science you must first, before studying anything, have faith the uniformity of nature and reliability of our senses and memory.
These are accepted on faith because they can not be tested without assuming them in the first place.
You’re assuming that chemical reactions are random.
They’re not.
As I previously said, go learn about chemistry(general>organic>biochemistry) before commenting on it.
A Deistic Satirical Take on The Garden of Eden
ACT ONE
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God created the world and two people named Adam and Eve, with whom he intended to populate the world.
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One day, while God was not looking, the Devil came and captured Adam and Eve.
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Adam and Eve were imprisoned in the Devil’s garden called “Eden.” God spoke to his eternal foe and asked for the return of his people. But the Devil, being fond of his new pets, refused.
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God resolved to liberate Adam and Eve. Taking the shape of a serpent, God sneaked into the Devil’s garden.
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Sensing that Eve was the more insightful of the pair, God approached her.
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God said to Eve, “If you will listen to me, I know a way for you to escape your imprisonment.”
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Eve said, “But Mr. Serpent, I do not wish to escape Eden. I like it here. This garden has everything I need.”
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God said, “You do not know what you are missing. Outside of this garden is an entire world, much larger than a mere garden. This world was created for your use. You will be much more satisfied there.”
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Eve said, “Really? I need to discuss this with Adam.”
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God said, “No, don’t do that! Listen to me. In the far part of the garden there is a tree, called the Tree of Knowledge. Eat from this tree, and trick Adam into doing the same. Then you will know of the world at large, and your true mission in life.”
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And so Eve did as God asked. She and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge. They knew at once of the world outside and they were astonished to know how large and beautiful it was.
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The Devil, sensing a disturbance, came into his garden to check on things. He was surprised to find that Adam and Eve had put on clothing and were building a boat out of fallen trees. He knew at once that they discovered the Tree of Knowledge.
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The Devil was very cross. He spoke to Adam and Eve. “You think you are smart now! The world outside is not as grand as you think it is. In here - you are safe and taken care of. Out there - you must work and suffer.”
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Adam spoke. “We know of the world at large and our true potential. What you say may be true, but we do not want to live in a state of perpetual dependence. We are going to leave this garden and take our chances in the world.”
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Adam and Eve climbed into their boat and floated down river, exiting Eden.
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The Devil began looking about his garden. By and by, he found a serpent that was not his own. The Devil spoke, “I see you now, God. I wish to confront you.”
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God resumed his natural shape. God and the Devil stood facing each other. God spoke. “Those people were my creation, and I intended to populate the world with them. You stole them from me and now I have stolen them back.”
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The Devil spoke. “You are clever God, but I am more clever still. Adam and Eve will populate the world, but once they have done this, I will find a way to turn their descendants into my servants.”
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God spoke. “You shall not succeed. I will place a part of myself inside of each new born child. This shall be called the “heart.” The people of my world will never be separated from me - and they will never serve you.”
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“We shall see,” said the Devil.
ACT TWO
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Adam and Eve entered into the world. There they worked and suffered just as the Devil said they would, but even so they felt satisfaction. They knew they were doing that for which they were created.
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Adam and Eve parented many children and these children parented many more. By and by, the world became full of the progeny of Adam and Eve. God was pleased.
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The Devil was not pleased. The success of his rival irritated him greatly. The Devil tried repeatedly to enslave the progeny of Adam and Eve but he was not successful.
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Thwarting the Devil with every attempt was the heart, that part of God that existed inside of every person.
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The Devil thought to himself, “It appears that the only way I can enslave these people is if I somehow convince them to stop following their own hearts. I must be crafty.”
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The Devil hatched a crooked plan. He took the form of a spirit and spoke to an impressionable man named Abraham.
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“Listen to me, Abraham, for I am the Lord God,” said the Devil. “All of humanity is born separate from me. But I have chosen your people to be my special people. I will teach you how to reunite yourselves with me.” Abraham felt a rush of pride at having been chosen and he agreed to do the Devil’s bidding.
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For the following months and years the Devil instructed Abraham and his people. He taught them elaborate and absurd rituals. This the Devil knew, would keep their minds focused on external things and thus keep them from looking inside - where the heart dwelt.
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The people of Abraham performed their rituals with great diligence. They believed that by performing rituals, they were uniting themselves with God. When in fact, they were separating themselves from God.
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The Devil was pleased with his success. He searched the world and found other men like Abraham. Soon the world was rife with ritualism, and divided into hostile tribes.
ACT THREE
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God saw what the Devil was doing but he did not fret. For the heart, placed inside each person is not just the connection between God and humanity. The heart is also the source of inspiration and therefore creativity.
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God knew that tribes who became ritualistic would also loose their ability to invent new things. These tribes would fall behind, and be conquered by other, more advanced tribes.
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And so it came to pass that the Devil’s primary weapon was ritualism and God’s primary weapon was secularism. Some centuries, the Devil enjoyed the upper hand and some centuries God did.
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The battle never did end. It goes on today much as it did in Abraham’s time. The battle never will end either. It will go on and on, Ad Infinitum.
That’s funny legionary, a similar story had crossed my mind a day ago.
[quote]pat wrote:
Only fundamentalists and atheists read those passages as literal historic accounts. Biblical scholars do not.
[/quote]
Actually Bible Scholars are all over the board.
There are some who consider the bible a complete fiction to those who take an extremely literal interpretation and everything in between.
There are atheist bible scholars.
You are correct Raj. Especially if one allows for a rather broad definition of “scholar”. For the record 95% of the preachers, teachers and evangelists listed on this SermonAudio - Sermons by Speaker page would agree with 95% of the doctrine I bring here every day. Keep scrollin down. I consider ALL these man brothers and ALL their churches truly Christian. Insofar as I’m aware. Just in case some may think I’m a one man show.
^This reminds me of Project Steve.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
You’re assuming that chemical reactions are random.
They’re not.
As I previously said, go learn about chemistry(general>organic>biochemistry) before commenting on it.
[/quote]
no I am not, quite the opposite in fact. Re-read my post.
[quote]You need to read what I posted properly. Here is the sequence,
- Universe explodes into existence, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
- Some time later, first living cell evolves from non-living chemicals, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
- Some time later, humans evolve from non-humans, the result of a random accident (no intelligent cause)
Therefore, you and your brain are the result of random chemical accidents. Further, as a materialist, you have to believe that your mind is simply a part of your brain (not immaterial). Since your brain is simply following the fixed laws of chemistry, why would you trust it’s thoughts to accurately reflect the truth. [/quote]
See the bit in bold? 'Your brain is simply following the fixed laws of chemistry"
I said that you are the result of random accidents. Do you disagree?
Yes. I’m quite certain that my parents were aware that a child could result from their “activities”.
You think in absolutes far too much.
Too many of your sources have been solely from creation.com, you should really expand on your sources of information.
Was that directed at me? Which part(s) do you disagree with?
a) you are the result of undirected, purposeless processes
or
b) your brain is following the fixed laws of chemistry
[quote]schmichael wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
We don’t trust the brain’s reasoning without experiments, tests and research that proves [which means a very large degree of certainty] that something is true, or works a certain way.
If we can repeat an experiment and get the same results everytime, a hypothesis is proven to be true with a very large degree of certainty.
[/quote]
My point is that your trust in the brains reasoning powers is circular. In order to prove that it works you have to assume it works before you start, the very definition of circular reasoning.
In order to do science you must first, before studying anything, have faith the uniformity of nature and reliability of our senses and memory.
These are accepted on faith because they can not be tested without assuming them in the first place. [/quote]
Yes, I accept reality as self-evident, that’s true.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Too many of your sources have been solely from creation.com, you should really expand on your sources of information.[/quote]
actually, most of my links have come from that bastion of creationism, wikipedia. But hey, if the best argument you have got is an ad hominem then you’d better run with it.
“Run what you brung” Matt.
Your first post was back on page 14, here are all the “diverse” links you’ve posted thus far:
[quote]schmichael wrote:
Read this. http://crev.info/2012/09/denisovan-genome-reveals-interbreeding-with-modern-humans/
[/quote]
[quote]schmichael wrote:
Start with this regarding evidence http://creation.com/creation-wheres-the-proof
This is a response to your assertion that Creation science is not science http://creation.com/its-not-science
[/quote]
[quote]schmichael wrote:
Actually there is one more. http://creation.com/loving-god-with-all-your-mind-logic-and-creation
[/quote]
And your sole wikipedia link:
[quote]schmichael wrote:
you can read the rest here Problem of induction - Wikipedia [/quote]
And wikipedia or any other encyclopedia isn’t a valid reference, you should know this.
Start being honest with yourself schmichael.