Bill Nye #2: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

…it’s not in the realm of science, it can never be visible…

[/quote]

Precisely what the creationist argument is against macro evolution, or “increases in genetic information.”

It’s not visible, observable, or testable.

Thanks for your post!
[/quote]

Snappy comebacks don’t change the fact that you and other creationists don’t understand the gist. Creationists like to point out that Newton and other early scientists were Christians. Yet, there is no God in Newtons mechanics, there is no God in Keplers or Galileos planetary models, ther was no God when flogiston turned out to be oxygen. There is no God in Darwins theory. Do you see a pattern there?[/quote]

Another non sequitur. You boys sure struggle in what (you think) should be such a slam dunk.[/quote]

What was a non sequitur? Look at it like this: science as we know it is appr. 400 years old. ID of YEC or whatever the acronym is is like putting your 4 years old son riding a bull. Let him grow, his really (E:not) up for the task yet, probably never, but now is definitely too soon. The battles these acronyms may have won are political ones, not scientific.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Do you see a pattern there?[/quote]Ohhhh indeed I do. I see yet another guy, this time from Finland, who simply cannot seem to grasp that “science” does not, never has, and CAN NOT propose even one syllable of data with=out epistemology.
[/quote]

Says who, a Christian from Detroit. Epistemology is a part of philosophy, it hasn’t changed anything in 2500 years, interesting, but without the power to change anything.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
^ It’s a self-trained response, Matt, to laugh - usually it’s nervous and disconcerting one - when one has been backed into a corner.

Your post was completely irrelevant to what we were discussing - “current form” - and was just the classic blab-blab-blab chatter about teaching creation in public schools.

Your extensive and impressive credentials in your chosen field has certainly done little to assist you in engaging in a debate about this subject - creationism - a subject of which you obviously know little. This presents a fascinating irony in light of your recent post advocating being careful to pontificate in fields outside of those in which you have been trained.[/quote]

No, it wasn’t. The whole point of this thread, and the first, is whether or not creationism should be taught in science classes, all other topics being discussed are secondary to that topic. I admitted that my knowledge of evolution is very lacking which is why I limited my posts on that topic to posting the work of others in that field. I have also made it very clear that I have no interest in studying non-scientific works, which is why I do not go into detail at all on creationism except to state that it is not a scientific theory, which we discussed in that 300 million year old forest thread. That post was to clarify my position on the main topic of the thread, namely that science classes are for teaching science, not other fields like theology.
[/quote]

A follow-up non sequitur? Really?

We were discussing your statement about “some people” and “current form” and you think your politicization about teaching in public schools is relevant? Nonsense.

Step up to the plate or get a pinch hitter if you must.[/quote]

Our conversation about “some people” was over. You made up an argument based on a point I did not make, so why would I continue that argument that you made up? The discussion about what is appropriate in science classes is much more relevant to the thread anyway.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Do you see a pattern there?[/quote]Ohhhh indeed I do. I see yet another guy, this time from Finland, who simply cannot seem to grasp that “science” does not, never has, and CAN NOT propose even one syllable of data with=out epistemology. [/quote]Says who, a Christian from Detroit. Epistemology is a part of philosophy, it hasn’t changed anything in 2500 years, interesting, but without the power to change anything.[/quote]Says you with every word. Stick around. BTW. True epistemology is the mind of God and therefore eternal. It has never not been. 2500 years has been man’s attempt to contrive his own.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Do you see a pattern there?[/quote]Ohhhh indeed I do. I see yet another guy, this time from Finland, who simply cannot seem to grasp that “science” does not, never has, and CAN NOT propose even one syllable of data with=out epistemology. [/quote]Says who, a Christian from Detroit. Epistemology is a part of philosophy, it hasn’t changed anything in 2500 years, interesting, but without the power to change anything.[/quote]Says you with every word. Stick around. BTW. True epistemology is the mind of God and therefore eternal. It has never not been. 2500 years has been man’s attempt to contrive his own.
[/quote]

You know that interpretation of epistemology is your own. Maybe it’s a valid one in your circles. Remember what I said about languages. You can shout Hallelujah on the top of your lungs, but it doesn’t mean anything outside of it’s context.

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Precisely what the creationist argument is against macro evolution, or “increases in genetic information.”

It’s not visible, observable, or testable.

Thanks for your post![/quote]

So increases in genetic information equals macroevolution?

And these increases are neither visible, observable nor testable?[/quote]

I was hoping either you or one of the other guys who study biology would take that one. I just do not have the time to looking up the info I would need to properly respond to that, seeing as how I have not taken beyond a freshmen level bio class and that was over 20 years ago at that.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
This may stem from the history of philosophy, where every academic was required to study philosophy and the fields of philosophy, medicine, mathematics and science were one (in fact, the title PhD is a throwback to this tradition), but that time is long past. The purpose and methodologies of those fields are all very different mow, and what constitutes a valid argument or statement in one may, and probably is not, in another.

This piece from Dr. Matt is something that I was thinking about in a bit of a different way. Russell who had the bit on numbers was assuredly both a mathematician and philosopher. In the time frame he was active there were meetings of people like Wittgenstein, Popper, and Moore and many others. All fairly broadly educated in many areas. It seems now that such a grouping of people might not even be possible. Everyone specializes to such a degree that a relatively in depth knowledge of multiple disciplines just doesn’t seem as common. [/quote]Ok, but don’t tell me that YOU don’t see any validity in, I’m sure not my conclusion, but the line of thought leading to it? No? It would kill ya to say something like “well Trib certainly is an incurable basket case, but he also actually IS pursuing a legitimate line of argumentation that DrMatt is not grasping.”? You may have to wince, sputter n spit to get it out, but are you sure you wouldn’t live?
I will have a few thoughts for the good doctor regarding his last post hopefully later today.
[/quote]
Its ultimately pointless. I have known many mathematicians and they by and large are concerned with purely the analytic statements that make up the system. And perhaps how these statements relate to the real world. Little care is going to be given to the why or why not of the relation. Or for a definition of number that isn’t purely analytic.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Precisely what the creationist argument is against macro evolution, or “increases in genetic information.”

It’s not visible, observable, or testable.

Thanks for your post![/quote]

So increases in genetic information equals macroevolution?

And these increases are neither visible, observable nor testable?[/quote]

I was hoping either you or one of the other guys who study biology would take that one. I just do not have the time to looking up the info I would need to properly respond to that, seeing as how I have not taken beyond a freshmen level bio class and that was over 20 years ago at that.[/quote]

There’s plenty of info, that they refuse to look at. Anyone in here could present evidence that they will completely deny, simply because they think it is against their beleif in God. No matter how much evidence we have they will never believe, just as Trib has said many times, and other creationist scientists have said, they will stick to their Bible regardless.

With that said, Creationist theory has been the same for years, just recycled over and over and over again.

It comes down to two things:

  1. Irriducible complexity
  2. No proof of Macroevolution

Both of which have been destroyed countless times

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< You know that interpretation of epistemology is your own. Maybe it’s a valid one in your circles. Remember what I said about languages. You can shout Hallelujah on the top of your lungs, but it doesn’t mean anything outside of it’s context.[/quote]This language is eternal, universal, comprehensive and inescapable.

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
This may stem from the history of philosophy, where every academic was required to study philosophy and the fields of philosophy, medicine, mathematics and science were one (in fact, the title PhD is a throwback to this tradition), but that time is long past. The purpose and methodologies of those fields are all very different mow, and what constitutes a valid argument or statement in one may, and probably is not, in another.

This piece from Dr. Matt is something that I was thinking about in a bit of a different way. Russell who had the bit on numbers was assuredly both a mathematician and philosopher. In the time frame he was active there were meetings of people like Wittgenstein, Popper, and Moore and many others. All fairly broadly educated in many areas. It seems now that such a grouping of people might not even be possible. Everyone specializes to such a degree that a relatively in depth knowledge of multiple disciplines just doesn’t seem as common. [/quote]Ok, but don’t tell me that YOU don’t see any validity in, I’m sure not my conclusion, but the line of thought leading to it? No? It would kill ya to say something like “well Trib certainly is an incurable basket case, but he also actually IS pursuing a legitimate line of argumentation that DrMatt is not grasping.”? You may have to wince, sputter n spit to get it out, but are you sure you wouldn’t live?
I will have a few thoughts for the good doctor regarding his last post hopefully later today.
[/quote]
Its ultimately pointless. I have known many mathematicians and they by and large are concerned with purely the analytic statements that make up the system. And perhaps how these statements relate to the real world. Little care is going to be given to the why or why not of the relation. Or for a definition of number that isn’t purely analytic. [/quote]Well Groo this was better than nuthin. Your non rebuttal tells me that you get what I was askin.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

This language is eternal, universal, comprehensive and inescapable.
[/quote]

Nothing a human being can utter is eternal, universal, comprehensive or inescapable. This whole thread shouts it. :slight_smile:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< You know that interpretation of epistemology is your own. Maybe it’s a valid one in your circles. Remember what I said about languages. You can shout Hallelujah on the top of your lungs, but it doesn’t mean anything outside of it’s context.[/quote]This language is eternal, universal, comprehensive and inescapable.

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
This may stem from the history of philosophy, where every academic was required to study philosophy and the fields of philosophy, medicine, mathematics and science were one (in fact, the title PhD is a throwback to this tradition), but that time is long past. The purpose and methodologies of those fields are all very different mow, and what constitutes a valid argument or statement in one may, and probably is not, in another.

This piece from Dr. Matt is something that I was thinking about in a bit of a different way. Russell who had the bit on numbers was assuredly both a mathematician and philosopher. In the time frame he was active there were meetings of people like Wittgenstein, Popper, and Moore and many others. All fairly broadly educated in many areas. It seems now that such a grouping of people might not even be possible. Everyone specializes to such a degree that a relatively in depth knowledge of multiple disciplines just doesn’t seem as common. [/quote]Ok, but don’t tell me that YOU don’t see any validity in, I’m sure not my conclusion, but the line of thought leading to it? No? It would kill ya to say something like “well Trib certainly is an incurable basket case, but he also actually IS pursuing a legitimate line of argumentation that DrMatt is not grasping.”? You may have to wince, sputter n spit to get it out, but are you sure you wouldn’t live?
I will have a few thoughts for the good doctor regarding his last post hopefully later today.
[/quote]
Its ultimately pointless. I have known many mathematicians and they by and large are concerned with purely the analytic statements that make up the system. And perhaps how these statements relate to the real world. Little care is going to be given to the why or why not of the relation. Or for a definition of number that isn’t purely analytic. [/quote]Well Groo this was better than nuthin. Your non rebuttal tells me that you get what I was askin.
[/quote]
I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but its within the realm of what is a number in the mind or things that have the quality of number I think. Not how arithmetic defines numbers and their manipulation which is purely an analytic thing and is solely true by definition. And as with all things that are true by definition really doesn’t say anything about the world.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

This language is eternal, universal, comprehensive and inescapable.
[/quote]Nothing a human being can utter is eternal, universal, comprehensive or inescapable. This whole thread shouts it. :)[/quote]Not without God which is what this thread is proof of. EVERYBODY incessantly and unavoidably speaks their creator’s epistemological language. They can’t help it. They’re designed that way in His very image.

It’s their death in sin manifesting itself as the rebellious continuation of father Adam’s transgression that’s the problem. They too insolently assert their own ability to themselves determine their own reality. That accounts for their interpreting what they observe so as to exclude Him. Bible believers expect that. The religious deceivers of this age try to adulterate His truth with the world’s lies. I won’t have and I don’t have to. I have back bi’s and abs.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

This language is eternal, universal, comprehensive and inescapable.
[/quote]Nothing a human being can utter is eternal, universal, comprehensive or inescapable. This whole thread shouts it. :)[/quote]
Not without God which is what this thread is proof of. EVERYBODY incessantly and unavoidably speaks their creator’s epistemological language. They can’t help it. They’re designed that way in His very image.

It’s their death in sin manifesting itself as the rebellious continuation of father Adam’s transgression that’s the problem. They too insolently assert their own ability to themselves determine their own reality. That accounts for their interpreting what they observe so as to exclude Him. Bible believers expect that. The religious deceivers of this age try to adulterate His truth with the world’s lies. I won’t have and I don’t have to. I have back bi’s and abs.
[/quote]

I don’t deny your first point, only your interpretation of it. We are bound by this world and that is a sin? It all falls back to the Bible, every time, doesn’t it? The second paragraph is really only intelligible in the context you speak from. Determine their own reality? It’s based on observation of the reality that surrounds us all. You should actually denounce everything from Newton onwards.

E: and you don’t have to, thats true and pretty obvious.

While I would rather wait for push to chime in to clarify that statement, I have other things I need to do tonight so I figure I’ll get the ball rolling as is.

CLIFFNOTES: it happens. We can observe it. We can test it.

We know that information can be added to the genome; this is a fact. And, we not only know that it DOES occur, we know various mechanisms behind WHY it occurs; e.g., as a result of unequal crossing over during meiosis I (“crossing over” refers to a point during cell division in which each pair of chromosomes swaps - or, crosses - genetic information with its counterpart to form a recombinant chromosome as a means of ensuring genetic diversity in offspring). When crossing over is unequal, the results can vary wildly - anything from a portion of a single gene to several genes can be found. In the event that introns (noncoding segments that nonetheless provide crucial functions) are transferred alongside the exons (coding regions), we now have a chromosome with extra material capable of expression. If not, there is still new information (albeit defective, noncoding, whatever) on the recombinant chromosome that presents a potential for further alteration down the line.

Another example would be in the case of transposable genetic elements, such as retrotransposons (which are copied to mRNA to cDNA and then inserted back into the genome) and DNA transposons (in which DNA segments are enzymatically jostled about without an RNA intermediate). The latter does not add anything “new” to the individual (it is simply a rearrangement), though that rearrangement can be passed on as “extra” information. The former, however, IS new information since the original sequence is copied and reinserted.

There are obviously other examples, the more obvious being cases of entire chromosome duplication (Down, Klinefelter’s, Edwards syndromes), but I think we get the picture.

So, we know that it occurs… but can we see/test/observe it? Yes, we can. If we chemically arrest cells during a particular stage in their division (colchicine or colcemid during metaphase is a textbook example, but I’m not a geneticist so I don’t know the latest-and-greatest), we can actually take the chromosomes, pair them together, stain them and lay them out for analysis. This is called karyotyping (and I’m sure if you Google an image of it you will recognize it even if the word itself in unfamiliar). Actually nowadays, our technology is so advanced we can use DNA probes specific for certain sequences to bind and fluoresce for us so we can see what’s going on (fluorescence in-situ hybridization technology, or FISH).

So, yeah. And I just wanna nip one particular objection in the bud straightaway: while many of these examples DO result in pathological states, this is not a universal rule. Not all mutations are bad. Please Google it or something before trying to argue otherwise.

anonym, have you seen this? It’s about the fusion of chromosome 2 .

I’ve posted it like 3 times now, and the creationists just seem to ignore it.

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< I don’t deny your first point, only your interpretation of it. >>>[/quote] OOOOO, that was closer =] [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< We are bound by this world and that is a sin? >>>[/quote] We are bound by our nature which IS a mini finite replica of the God who designed us in His image. The sin is our deliberate and ongoing attempt to deny that by intellectually starting with the proposition that WE will determine whether that is true or not, by ourselves, as autonomous lord of our own lives. Just like Adam did. We’re chips off the ol block ya know. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< It all falls back to the Bible, every time, doesn’t it? >>>[/quote]Yes. The merciful and loving sovereign of all that is, has graciously provided a user’s manual for both ourselves AND the universe we live in. I praise His holy name for it. Everything makes sense to me. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< The second paragraph is really only intelligible in the context you speak from. >>>[/quote] Very good. That’s true. Except that it’s also the context you speak from in order to deny that you are. Yes, I said that right. [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< Determine their own reality? It’s based on observation of the reality that surrounds us all. >>>[/quote] Here again: [quote]I said: “Man has throughout his history, by virtue of the remaining though sinfully broken image of God, been so absolutely RIGHT about so very much of what he’s observed and published. While, due to this brokenness in sin, being so ABSOLUTELY wrong about how and why he’s right about it. This has led him to utterly corrupt and perverse conclusions even from the things he’s right about.”[/quote] [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< You should actually denounce everything from Newton onwards. >>>[/quote]And you were doin much better for a minute there too. =] [quote]kaaleppi wrote:<<< E: and you don’t have to, that’s true and pretty obvious.[/quote] I don’t even see anything that makes me uncomfortable about my faith. It’s not like there’s all this painfully persuasive evidence for atheism or even non Christian theism nevermind macro evolution like you guys are always claiming. That’s only believable from YOUR sinfully manufactured God denying mindset. The one you force upon yourself to escape moral accountability to a God you hate. And yes, merely questioning His existence IS hatred.