Bill Moyers: The 'Crony Capitalist Blowout'

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

Let’s take Big Pharma for example. You can not get fat derived stem cell therapy in the U.S. because it works so much better than the garbage drug cocktails that they invent it would mean a huge economic threat to them. So the American public has to suffer because the greedy pharmaceutical companies want to make them customers in which they can enrich themselves to the detriment of the public.
[/quote]

And patients cannot get alternative treatments because of what organization?[/quote]

Big Pharma
[/quote]

Big Pharma only has the power to stop competitors because of “protections” created by Big Government.[/quote]

While that is true it is also true that it is done at the behest of these behemoth Big Pharma corps.
[/quote]
Oh noez, they will threathen the government with the most powerful military that ever was with what exactly?[/quote]

You are so incredibly nieve you deny the common knowledge that corporations pay off politicians to approve legislation that favors them above all else. Have you ever heard of lobbyists?

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

His book points out his flawed thinking. You posted an article which is supposed to be critical about the Stone documentary and it was written by Horowitz as if he is a credible source.

[/quote]

No, it wasn’t written by Horowitz. It was just from FrontPage Magazine. I also posted sections of another review from left-wing site The Daily Beast.

I was asking you specifics about the Stone film and you haven’t addressed any of them. I don’t believe you are even familiar with the details of the film.

Well, we’ve established that you’re not even familiar with the claims in Stone’s film.

[quote]Xav wrote:
I’m not quoting your post Zeppelin to avoid walls of text, it doesn’t seem to work.

If I am not mistaken you claim that the efficacy, safety and cost-effectiveness of non-embryonic stem cell therapy has been proved, could you back this up?
Also calling me ignorant and then claiming that the only therapy for cancer consists of chemo is quite contra-productive. I have to tell you that there are way more possibilities than only chemo, chemo is more of a last resort therapy and often palliative.

I believe you’re talking about stem cell therapies where your own stem cells are extracted (often from fat indeed) and implanted later on? Could you enlighten me in which therapies exactly this is used? As far I know this is used in certain forms of leukemia, and not a lot more. A lot of research is being done to use this in orthopedics (most notably cartilage regeneration) and as a matter of fact this week very promising results were announced of using autologous stem cells in myocardial infarction rehab.

More importantly, which diseases could these stem cells cure that would otherwise lead to a high consumption of drugs?
I wholeheartedly agree on what you say about nutrition and med school.

One last thing I’d like to ask you is how does Big Pharma exactly keep fat derived stem cells from hitting the market? You said yourself they can’t patent it, not to mention that when using your own stem cells you can hardly speak of the market to begin with. [/quote]

You can not just bring something to market. You must go through the FDA. The FDA is owned by Big Pharma so they work for Big Parma. A consequence of the power of monopolies.

Auto-immune diseases are treated with stem cells. Spinal cord injuries are treated with stem cells. Do some research and enlighten yourself.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

You are wrong again. You have to travel outside the country in order to receive adult stem cell therapy. According to you that is okay because Big Pharma can not stop you from getting on a plane. You help make my point for me and don’t even realize it.

The American public deserves better than this but this is a consequence of a healthcare system that places profits over health.[/quote]

So, how is Big Pharma making sure that noone is swooping in and simply offers those services?[/quote]

Because they CONTROL the market and the FDA, that is how…

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

His book points out his flawed thinking. You posted an article which is supposed to be critical about the Stone documentary and it was written by Horowitz as if he is a credible source.

[/quote]

No, it wasn’t written by Horowitz. It was just from FrontPage Magazine. I also posted sections of another review from left-wing site The Daily Beast.

I was asking you specifics about the Stone film and you haven’t addressed any of them. I don’t believe you are even familiar with the details of the film.

Well, we’ve established that you’re not even familiar with the claims in Stone’s film.[/quote]

The U.S. had nuclear weapons in Turkey. So why wouldn’t the Soviets deploy warheads in Cuba?

9/11 was a consequence of blowback and it’s refusal to leave the holy lands. This was stated time and time again by BIn Laden himself. You can only colonize and interfere with others affairs for so long before it comes back to haunt you - blowback! 9/11 had nothing to do with what conservative clowns like Bill Bennett said “they hate us because of our freedoms”. What crap!

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Xav wrote:
I’m not quoting your post Zeppelin to avoid walls of text, it doesn’t seem to work.

If I am not mistaken you claim that the efficacy, safety and cost-effectiveness of non-embryonic stem cell therapy has been proved, could you back this up?
Also calling me ignorant and then claiming that the only therapy for cancer consists of chemo is quite contra-productive. I have to tell you that there are way more possibilities than only chemo, chemo is more of a last resort therapy and often palliative.

I believe you’re talking about stem cell therapies where your own stem cells are extracted (often from fat indeed) and implanted later on? Could you enlighten me in which therapies exactly this is used? As far I know this is used in certain forms of leukemia, and not a lot more. A lot of research is being done to use this in orthopedics (most notably cartilage regeneration) and as a matter of fact this week very promising results were announced of using autologous stem cells in myocardial infarction rehab.

More importantly, which diseases could these stem cells cure that would otherwise lead to a high consumption of drugs?
I wholeheartedly agree on what you say about nutrition and med school.

One last thing I’d like to ask you is how does Big Pharma exactly keep fat derived stem cells from hitting the market? You said yourself they can’t patent it, not to mention that when using your own stem cells you can hardly speak of the market to begin with. [/quote]

You can not just bring something to market. You must go through the FDA. The FDA is owned by Big Pharma so they work for Big Parma. A consequence of the power of monopolies.

Auto-immune diseases are treated with stem cells. Spinal cord injuries are treated with stem cells. Do some research and enlighten yourself.

[/quote]

What does having to go through the FDA have to do with anything? The FDA is an obstacle for “Big Pharma”, obliging them to a whole lot of research before they can market a product.

The treatments you talk about are highly experimental. I can assure you they’re not common practice in other countries than the USA.
I did a quick search on your claims on spinal cord injuries following your advice to enlighten myself, you might want to follow it yourself! If you can find other reliable information, please let me know, but I highly doubt it.

I quote the 2 most recent articles (indexed for MEDLINE, to avoid you claiming these articles are bullshit) on the subject.

" In January 2009, the Food and Drug Administration approved the Investigational New Drug application of Geron Corporation, a small California-based biopharmaceutical company, to initiate a clinical trial to assess GRNOPC1, a human embryonic stem cell-derived candidate therapy for severe spinal cord injuries." (Evaluating the first-in-human clinical trial of a human embryonic stem cell-based therapy. Chapman AR, Scala CC.)

The most recent review on stem cell therapy and spinal cord injuries states that:
“Spinal cord injury (SCI) has remained a challenging area for scientists and clinicians due to the adverse and complex nature of its pathobiology. To date, clinical therapies for debilitating SCI are largely ineffective. However, emerging research evidence suggests that repair of SCI can be promoted by stem cell-based therapies in regenerative medicine. Over the past decade, therapeutic potential of different types of stem cells for the treatment of SCI have been investigated in preclinical models. These studies have revealed multiple beneficial roles by which stem cells can improve the outcomes of SCI. This chapter will summarize the recent advances in the application of stem cells in regenerative medicine for the repair of SCI.” (Adv Exp Med Biol. 2012;760:53-73.Stem cells and spinal cord injury repair.Karimi-Abdolrezaee S, Eftekharpour E.)

Supposing you want to continue this discussion, do you mind actually answering the points I made? You only answered one question of mine.

Could you accept the vague possibility that you’re not right on this one? You didn’t answer any of my points and I just refuted your only argument.

EDIT: Another question I’d like to ask you is how do you conclude there’s a monopoly? The pharmaceutical market consists of far more than just a handful of corporations…

[quote]Xav wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]Xav wrote:
I’m not quoting your post Zeppelin to avoid walls of text, it doesn’t seem to work.

If I am not mistaken you claim that the efficacy, safety and cost-effectiveness of non-embryonic stem cell therapy has been proved, could you back this up?
Also calling me ignorant and then claiming that the only therapy for cancer consists of chemo is quite contra-productive. I have to tell you that there are way more possibilities than only chemo, chemo is more of a last resort therapy and often palliative.

I believe you’re talking about stem cell therapies where your own stem cells are extracted (often from fat indeed) and implanted later on? Could you enlighten me in which therapies exactly this is used? As far I know this is used in certain forms of leukemia, and not a lot more. A lot of research is being done to use this in orthopedics (most notably cartilage regeneration) and as a matter of fact this week very promising results were announced of using autologous stem cells in myocardial infarction rehab.

More importantly, which diseases could these stem cells cure that would otherwise lead to a high consumption of drugs?
I wholeheartedly agree on what you say about nutrition and med school.

One last thing I’d like to ask you is how does Big Pharma exactly keep fat derived stem cells from hitting the market? You said yourself they can’t patent it, not to mention that when using your own stem cells you can hardly speak of the market to begin with. [/quote]

You can not just bring something to market. You must go through the FDA. The FDA is owned by Big Pharma so they work for Big Parma. A consequence of the power of monopolies.

Auto-immune diseases are treated with stem cells. Spinal cord injuries are treated with stem cells. Do some research and enlighten yourself.

[/quote]

What does having to go through the FDA have to do with anything? The FDA is an obstacle for “Big Pharma”, obliging them to a whole lot of research before they can market a product.

The treatments you talk about are highly experimental. I can assure you they’re not common practice in other countries than the USA.
I did a quick search on your claims on spinal cord injuries following your advice to enlighten myself, you might want to follow it yourself! If you can find other reliable information, please let me know, but I highly doubt it.

I quote the 2 most recent articles (indexed for MEDLINE, to avoid you claiming these articles are bullshit) on the subject.

" In January 2009, the Food and Drug Administration approved the Investigational New Drug application of Geron Corporation, a small California-based biopharmaceutical company, to initiate a clinical trial to assess GRNOPC1, a human embryonic stem cell-derived candidate therapy for severe spinal cord injuries." (Evaluating the first-in-human clinical trial of a human embryonic stem cell-based therapy. Chapman AR, Scala CC.)

The most recent review on stem cell therapy and spinal cord injuries states that:
“Spinal cord injury (SCI) has remained a challenging area for scientists and clinicians due to the adverse and complex nature of its pathobiology. To date, clinical therapies for debilitating SCI are largely ineffective. However, emerging research evidence suggests that repair of SCI can be promoted by stem cell-based therapies in regenerative medicine. Over the past decade, therapeutic potential of different types of stem cells for the treatment of SCI have been investigated in preclinical models. These studies have revealed multiple beneficial roles by which stem cells can improve the outcomes of SCI. This chapter will summarize the recent advances in the application of stem cells in regenerative medicine for the repair of SCI.” (Adv Exp Med Biol. 2012;760:53-73.Stem cells and spinal cord injury repair.Karimi-Abdolrezaee S, Eftekharpour E.)

Supposing you want to continue this discussion, do you mind actually answering the points I made? You only answered one question of mine.

Could you accept the vague possibility that you’re not right on this one? You didn’t answer any of my points and I just refuted your only argument.

EDIT: Another question I’d like to ask you is how do you conclude there’s a monopoly? The pharmaceutical market consists of far more than just a handful of corporations…
[/quote]

The FDA is there to ensure that the largest Pharmaceutical companies enjoy there monopolistic stranglehold on the healthcare system. They therefore have the power to shoot down any new treatments that are on the horizon.

The treatments I talk about are not highly experimental, they are being done outside of this country with greta effect and promise. However, to you they are because your view of healthcare is framed by the healthcare industry of this country.

The most recent view by whom? That article you posted? Who are these folks?

Can you accept that these people are regurgitating there own research and are behind on the technology?

Could you accept the vague possibility that you and this healthcare system in this country are wrong?

How many Big Pharma companies? They are a market oligarchy.

These treatments are kept away form the American public as a way to keep Big Pharma’s profits from being threatened.

Vet-Stem has been in business for over 10 years treating animals with fat-derived stem cells with no side effects but humans can’t get it. This is highly unethical and immoral. It also should be illegal and every CEO and major shareholder of every Big Pharma company along with their counterparts in the FDA ought to be behind bars. They are causing untold suffering for profits. The profit motive is not good for everything!

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

The U.S. had nuclear weapons in Turkey. So why wouldn’t the Soviets deploy warheads in Cuba?

9/11 was a consequence of blowback
[/quote]

Oh, here we go. It was “blowback” was it? OBL never had any contact with western intelligence during the Soviet war. Saudi Arabia was/is exporting terrorism and radical Islam as part of their foreign policy. They’re not doing it because there used to be some US troops stationed there upon invitation from their own government to protect them from Saddam Hussein. They’re doing it because they are radical Islamists on an apocalyptic mission.

“The Holy Lands?”

Now there’s a reputable source. It’s not as if he was a psychopath trying to justify his mass murder or anything.

Blowback! Colonize and interfere with others? Feel free to give specifics of what you’re talking about…

[quote]
9/11 had nothing to do with what conservative clowns like Bill Bennett said “they hate us because of our freedoms”. What crap![/quote]

9/11 happened because of Islamic fundamentalism.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

The U.S. had nuclear weapons in Turkey. So why wouldn’t the Soviets deploy warheads in Cuba?

9/11 was a consequence of blowback
[/quote]

Oh, here we go. It was “blowback” was it? OBL never had any contact with western intelligence during the Soviet war. Saudi Arabia was/is exporting terrorism and radical Islam as part of their foreign policy. They’re not doing it because there used to be some US troops stationed there upon invitation from their own government to protect them from Saddam Hussein. They’re doing it because they are radical Islamists on an apocalyptic mission.

“The Holy Lands?”

Now there’s a reputable source. It’s not as if he was a psychopath trying to justify his mass murder or anything.

Blowback! Colonize and interfere with others? Feel free to give specifics of what you’re talking about…

[quote]
9/11 had nothing to do with what conservative clowns like Bill Bennett said “they hate us because of our freedoms”. What crap![/quote]

9/11 happened because of Islamic fundamentalism.[/quote]

U.S. troops anywhere are asked by the elite to come to their country. Not by the population.

Yes Bin Laden wanted American troops out of their holy lands and said so time and time again. His sentiment was held by plenty of civilians.

Most of the time when U.S. deploys troops it is at the behest of corporations. I leave this quote of Major General Smedley Butler "â??I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.â??

Blowback and interference with other countries? Tell me and give examples when it doesn’t happen?

9/11 happened as blowback. Even CIA sources new that. You can only kill so many people before they rise up and plot revenge. Why is it okay for the U.S. to kill women, children and innocents but when someone else does it to us it is wrong?

In addition, the U.S. intervention created more terrorists as a result…

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

U.S. troops anywhere are asked by the elite to come to their country. Not by the population.

[/quote]

So what? I don’t want Muslims in my country. Does that mean they would be morally responsible if I decided to massacre Muslim civilians? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

I want Muslims out of my lands. Don’t the two things cancel each other out?

Er…Smedley Butler was a kook who made a laughing stock of himself by claiming a group of industrialists with a private army numbering half a million asked him to overthrow FDR and become dictator of America. Not surprisingly, the claims were ridiculed at the time and in the 78 years since no evidence has ever come to light substantiating any of his ludicrous claims.

US Marines don’t take orders from ‘corporations.’ Corporations do not “fund history books.”

That’s not an example. That’s just repeating the claim. I asked you for an example.

I have no idea what you’re talking about kook.

Terrorists are created by rogue countries like Saudi Arabia that spends billions of dollars spreading Wahhabism and financing and exporting terrorism.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

U.S. troops anywhere are asked by the elite to come to their country. Not by the population.

[/quote]

So what? I don’t want Muslims in my country. Does that mean they would be morally responsible if I decided to massacre Muslim civilians? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

I want Muslims out of my lands. Don’t the two things cancel each other out?

Er…Smedley Butler was a kook who made a laughing stock of himself by claiming a group of industrialists with a private army numbering half a million asked him to overthrow FDR and become dictator of America. Not surprisingly, the claims were ridiculed at the time and in the 78 years since no evidence has ever come to light substantiating any of his ludicrous claims.

US Marines don’t take orders from ‘corporations.’ Corporations do not “fund history books.”

That’s not an example. That’s just repeating the claim. I asked you for an example.

I have no idea what you’re talking about kook.

Terrorists are created by rogue countries like Saudi Arabia that spends billions of dollars spreading Wahhabism and financing and exporting terrorism.[/quote]

You said in a prior reply that U.S. troops are asked by governments to come to their countries. I’m simply pointing out that the majority of the population doesn’t want the troops there and that is a big difference!

Smedley was a kook but W lied us into a war with Iraq but he is someone to be respected?

You apply a moral philosophy in an uneven way. You decry the tragedy of 9/11 but see no reason why others should be upset when U.S. troops kill innocents.

I agree that Saudi Arabia helps to fund terrorism. Maybe you can ask the Bush’s why they are so friendly with them. But U.S. attacks in foreign lands help to fuel hatred towards our country and therefore help to create terrorists. Blowback!

The U.S. marines take orders from their superiors. When you move up the chain they are eventually intertwined with the military-industrial sector who are huge powerful corporations. The U.S. military most always fights wars to perpetuate the advancement of the business class.

Death and destruction for the almighty perverted profit motive.

You asked me for an example of what?

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

You asked me for an example of what?[/quote]

An example of “blowback.” Islamists massacre their own people. They hide behind civilians hoping that the US will kill them so they can use it as propaganda and as a pretext.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

You asked me for an example of what?[/quote]

An example of “blowback.” Islamists massacre their own people. They hide behind civilians hoping that the US will kill them so they can use it as propaganda and as a pretext.[/quote]

9/11. Elements of the CIA along with tons of others have said so…

The U.S. bombs indiscriminately killing civilians. Always have. This is a real source of hatred for this country and one can see why.