Bible Stories?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]lixy wrote:

As for your person/thing question, I’ll have to guess that it’s neither. I mean, how do you categorize the human soul? Is it a thing? Is it a person? Same thing applies for the Holy Spirit.

[/quote]Fair enough. So neither “He” nor “It”, then. We need more pronouns.

Okay, another question: what about the “Word”? In examining sura 3 ayat 45, it appears that it was not the Angel Gabriel who actually did the impregnating of Mary, but that it was the Word of God:

When the angels said O Mary! God Gives thee Good News of a son through a Word from Him! His name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God!

Then again in ayat 59:

The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.

And now we’re getting somewhere, because this compares favorably with the Gospel of John chapter 1 verses 1 and 14:

In the beginning was the Word (λογος), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So it was the Word of God that became flesh, by impregnating a mortal human woman, in both the Qur’an and the Gospel of John. Note that it doesn’t necessarily follow that the flesh, created by God via the Word, was also God.

Now let’s have another look at the first Epistle of John 5:7 and 8, which I listed earlier in reference to the Trinity.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Hmmm. Word, not “son” (note that many bibles do not contain this passage).

Now this concept is not so hard for a Muslim to understand (if not completely accept), I would imagine: God comprises himself, his Spirit and his Word.

I am, as Haney would likely agree, an amalgam of three elements: my physical body, my animating spirit (“breath” of life: the words spirit and breath are the same in Greek), and my words (which are the only manifestation of myself apparent here on T-Nation). The same with God.

[/quote]

122

[quote]lixy wrote:

Either way, I can understand why haney might think you’re playing us; your theological and historical knowledge is copious and flawless. I don’t know how you do it, but I do know the world is in dire need for more people like youself.[/quote]

Aw, gee. Now I’m the one who’s blushing.

Shukran gazilan.

123

[quote]haney1 wrote:
I’m just glad you didn’t call your self the queen, in that you go both ways, and in all directions.

[/quote]

Nah. I’ve found that it’s easier for a knight to capture a queen than the other way around. Queens are so powerful, they sometimes fail to be circumspect.

Note that in the older Persian form of the game, shakhmat, it is not called the queen, but rather the vazir (prime minister). Heads of state, take note.

124

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
lixy wrote:

As for your person/thing question, I’ll have to guess that it’s neither. I mean, how do you categorize the human soul? Is it a thing? Is it a person? Same thing applies for the Holy Spirit.

Fair enough. So neither “He” nor “It”, then. We need more pronouns.

Like the angels, it’s one of God’s creations but its nature and role are ambiguous. What’s clear though, is that it’s not God Himself. The Quran insists on that bit.

Okay, another question: what about the “Word”? In examining sura 3 ayat 45, it appears that it was not the Angel Gabriel who actually did the impregnating of Mary, but that it was the Word of God:

When the angels said O Mary! God Gives thee Good News of a son through a Word from Him! His name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God!

Then again in ayat 59:

The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.

And now we’re getting somewhere, because this compares favorably with the Gospel of John chapter 1 verses 1 and 14:

In the beginning was the Word (λογος), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

So it was the Word of God that became flesh, by impregnating a mortal human woman, in both the Qur’an and the Gospel of John. Note that it doesn’t necessarily follow that the flesh, created by God via the Word, was also God.

Now let’s have another look at the first Epistle of John 5:7 and 8, which I listed earlier in reference to the Trinity.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Hmmm. Word, not “son” (note that many bibles do not contain this passage).

Now this concept is not so hard for a Muslim to understand (if not completely accept), I would imagine: God comprises himself, his Spirit and his Word.

I am, as Haney would likely agree, an amalgam of three elements: my physical body, my animating spirit (“breath” of life: the words spirit and breath are the same in Greek), and my words (which are the only manifestation of myself apparent here on T-Nation). The same with God.

[/quote]

Interesting. It is a fine line that this toes between My description of trinitarianism, and the one that is not considered tru trinitarianism.

Never the less it was a nice description.

125

Going back to the original point, i believe that the stories in the Bible are literal. If you do not, I can understand. It is human nature to question the validity of things that we don’t understand. Hence, we try to put God in a “box” and tend to assume that certain things that contradict our ideas of what is possible never really happened. I offer this, if you really believe that there is a God that created the world, whether in 6 days or 6 Billion years, could it not also be possible that He has the power to do whatever he wants reagarding nature (ie; part the read sea, halt the sun, etc.)?

Regarding the trinity, any true theologian will tell you that the trinity is one of the hardest things in the Bible to comprehend. Some people like to use the analogy of water as liquid, ice, and vapor, but this does not stand up because water cannot exist as all 3 at the same time. I came up with this explanation. Multiply the number 1 by itsself 3 times (1x1x1). what do you get? 1, but inside taht one are infinite other ones. Just something to think about.

126

[quote]Hazmaticus wrote:
Some people like to use the analogy of water as liquid, ice, and vapor, but this does not stand up because water cannot exist as all 3 at the same time. [/quote]

Technically, yes, water can exist simultaneously in all three phases.

The temperature and pressure conditions need to be near the triple point of water, though I can’t remember offhand what those conditions are.

127

[quote]Hazmaticus wrote:
Multiply the number 1 by itsself 3 times (1x1x1). what do you get? 1, but inside taht one are infinite other ones. Just something to think about.[/quote]

Wow. It works with addition and zero too. Add the number 0 to itself 3 times (0+0+0). What do you get? 0. It’s full of nothing. I think it’s more accurate, as adding people to a room is commonly done, but who ever managed to multiply three people together?

The fact that it’s a lot of nothing that adds up to nothing is just a nice bonus.

128

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Well, norwegian trolls are intelligent.

Now that would be another silly thread…

"I read that 48% of Norwegians believe the fairy tales in the Prose and Poetic Eddas are tales of ‘actual’ events.

I’m curious, is there anybody in Norway who believes they are true stories?"

Actually, I didn’t really read that, and I doubt it’s true, although I do know that Asatru is an official religion in Iceland, and Icelanders (culturally and linguistically, at least) are essentially Norwegians.
:P[/quote]
um… Odin is real. So is his raven.

129

Even though I’m an atheist, this has been a remarkably educational thread. Thanks to Varq, Haney, and lixy for having such a great conversation without breaking down into pissing matches.

Only on T-Nation can flamebait turn into a real religious discussion.

-Gendou

130

[quote]pookie wrote:
Hazmaticus wrote:
Multiply the number 1 by itsself 3 times (1x1x1). what do you get? 1, but inside taht one are infinite other ones. Just something to think about.

Wow. It works with addition and zero too. Add the number 0 to itself 3 times (0+0+0). What do you get? 0. It’s full of nothing. I think it’s more accurate, as adding people to a room is commonly done, but who ever managed to multiply three people together?

The fact that it’s a lot of nothing that adds up to nothing is just a nice bonus.
[/quote]

And inside that zero are an infinite number of other zeroes. Just something to think about.

131


“How illogical.”

[quote]Hazmaticus wrote:
I offer this, if you really believe that there is a God that created the world, whether in 6 days or 6 Billion years, could it not also be possible that He has the power to do whatever he wants reagarding nature (ie; part the read sea, halt the sun, etc.)?
[/quote]

You have offered a circular argument, with two conditions that each depend on the truth of the other in order to itself be true:

A. “The stories in the Bible are true”
B. “God is all-powerful”

Your argument looks like this: “The stories in the Bible is true because God is all-powerful because the Bible stories say so and the Bible stories are true.”

[A, therefore B, therefore A, therefore B, and so on for an infinite number of zeroes]

For someone who already believes one condition accepting the other is easy. Your challenge, however, is to prove one condition, and use that proven condition to prove the other. Otherwise you are preaching to the choir.

132

[quote]Hazmaticus wrote:

part the read sea[/quote]

Incidentally, I think you meant to say “Red Sea”… but more likely it was the Reed Sea (Yam Suf in the Torah) that the Hebrews crossed: a saltwater tidal marsh just east of the city of Pi-Ramesses, from which the Hebrew slaves had escaped.

Likely the entire exodus was triggered by a series of catastrophes resulting from the cataclysmic eruption of the Aegean volcano Mt. Thera, which also destroyed the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations. Nine of the ten plagues of Egypt are extremely symptomatic of a volcanic eruption:

River of blood = red volcanic mud mixed with seawater, stinking of sulfur, washing up the Nile. The Egyptians, who obviously did not have the facilities to do a forensic examination of the salty red substance, assumed it to be blood. Even today the same stinking red mud bubbles up around Santorini, modern-day Mt. Thera.

Plague of frogs = frogs escaping from the saline mud that entered their habitat invaded the city.

Plagues of flies and lice = after the frogs died, the vermin feeding on their corpses flourished.

Plague of diseased livestock = noxious cloud of volcanic gas + diseases borne by flies and lice.

Sores and boils = caused by abrasive, allergenic volcanic ash, which Santorini is also famous for.

Fiery hailstones = rocks, lava and other ejecta propelled by explosive eruption.

Plague of locusts = locusts following a volcanic eruption is almost a cliche. See Mt. Pinatubo eruption in Philippines.

Plague of darkness = sun blotted out by thick cloud of volcanic ash. See Krakatoa and Tambora, Indonesia.

Death of firstborn: Egyptians sacrificed their firstborn to propitiate the angry gods who were causing these calamities. Hebrews, who believed it was their God who was causing them on their behalf, naturally felt themselves to be exempt from this necessity, instead sacrificing a lamb and smearing the blood on door posts and lintels.

When the Egyptians, starving, diseased, covered in boils, and scared out of their wits, were now thrown into despair by the loss of their firstborn, the Hebrews seized their opportunity to loot the town and escape. They followed a pillar of cloud during the day, and a pillar of fire during the night, Exodus tells us. This could be none other than the glowing column of smoke and ash of the continually erupting Mt. Thera.

Now back to the Reed Sea. Following a volcanic eruption, tsunamis are very common, particularly around lowland marshes. Again, see Krakatoa and Tambora, which caused tsunamis as far away as India. The tsunami is immediately preceded by a complete draining of the marsh, which lasts for two or three hours.

The Hebrews likely found themselves encamped on the banks of the Reed Sea just as the marsh drained, upon which they waded across, and were lucky enough to make it to the other side before the tsunami hit. Moses striking the sea with his staff (indeed, the existence of Moses at all), and Pharaoh’s army being swept away by the deluge, may well be later embellishments, but they sure make for an exciting story.

In sum, the story of the exodus is probably true… sort of. Just like a lot of other Bible stories are probably true… sort of.

In any case, I think that the power of a god was certainly demonstrated by the story of the exodus: the power of Hephaestus, the Greek god of fire… who set the Hebrews free quite unintentionally.

133

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Hazmaticus wrote:

part the read sea

Incidentally, I think you meant to say “Red Sea”… but more likely it was the Reed Sea (Yam Suf in the Torah) that the Hebrews crossed: a saltwater tidal marsh just east of the city of Pi-Ramesses, from which the Hebrew slaves had escaped.

Likely the entire exodus was triggered by a series of catastrophes resulting from the cataclysmic eruption of Mt. Thera, which also destroyed the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations. Nine of the ten plagues of Egypt are extremely symptomatic of a volcanic eruption:

River of blood = red volcanic mud mixed with seawater, stinking of sulfur, washing up the Nile. Even today the same stinking red mud bubbles up around Santorini, modern-day Mt. Thera.

Plague of frogs = frogs escaped from the saline mud that invaded their habitat and invaded the city

Plagues of flies and lice = after the frogs died, the vermin increased

Plague of diseased livestock = noxious cloud of volcanic gas + diseases borne by flies and lice.

Sores and boils = caused by volcanic ash, which Santorini is also famous for.

Fiery hailstones = rocks, lava and other ejecta propelled by explosive eruption.

Plague of locusts = locusts following a volcanic eruption is almost a cliche. See Mt. Pinatubo eruption in Philippines.

Plague of darkness = sun blotted out by thick cloud of volcanic ash. See Krakatoa and Tambora, Indonesia.

Death of firstborn: Egyptians sacrificed their firstborn to propitiate the angry gods who were causing these calamities. Hebrews, who believed it was their God who was causing them on their behalf, naturally felt themselves to be exempt from this necessity.

When the Egyptians, starving, diseased, covered in boils, and scared out of their wits, were now thrown into despair by the loss of their firstborn, the Hebrews seized their opportunity to loot the town and escape. They followed a pillar of cloud during the day, and a pillar of cloud during the night, Exodus tells us. This could be none other than the glowing column of smoke and ash of the continually erupting Mt. Thera.

Now back to the Reed Sea. Following a volcanic eruption, tsunamis are very common, particularly around lowland marshes. Again, see Krakatoa and Tambora, which caused tsunamis as far away as India. The tsunami is immediately preceded by a complete draining of the marsh, which lasts for two or three hours.

The Hebrews likely found themselves encamped on the banks of the Reed Sea just as the marsh drained, upon which they waded across, and were lucky enough to make it to the other side before the tsunami hit. Moses striking the sea with his staff (indeed, the existence of Moses at all), and Pharaoh’s army being swept away by the deluge, may well be later embellishments, but they sure make for an exciting story.

In sum, the story of the exodus is probably true… sort of.

Furthermore, I think that if the power of God is demonstrated by it, it would be the power of Hephaestus, the Greek god of fire, who set the Hebrews free quite unintentionally.[/quote]

Does this guy know how to party, or what?!

Sorry guys, great thread. Entertaining and educating. I just had to get that out of my system.

134

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
…Likely the entire exodus was triggered by a series of catastrophes resulting from the cataclysmic eruption of the Aegean volcano Mt. Thera, which also destroyed the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations.
…[/quote]

I thought these guys were invaded? My timeline may be screwed up, but I thought that the Minoans were invaded by an unknown army in the Bronze Age.

Oh, and interesting post, Varq!

135

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Likely the entire exodus was triggered by a series of catastrophes resulting from the cataclysmic eruption of the Aegean volcano Mt. Thera, which also destroyed the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations…[/quote]

Wow, these Hebrews really didn’t waste any time. In all haste killing lambs, smearing blood on doorposts, looting their masters and off to the Reed Sea.

136

I was raised in a deeply Baptist family, you don’t even know! I feel that the Bible is a novel, with chapters added as it went along. Just as evangelists make money off of the “faithful” today, Jesus made a life out of spreading the word of God.

Religion, Christianity, and all the others, are a bunch of bigots, hypocrites, and demeaning to other religions. Until you die, you CANNOT claim there is only one God or creator. Its like saying Santa Clause is real, but the Easter Bunny isn’t.

137

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Hazmaticus wrote:

part the read sea

Incidentally, I think you meant to say “Red Sea”… but more likely it was the Reed Sea (Yam Suf in the Torah) that the Hebrews crossed: a saltwater tidal marsh just east of the city of Pi-Ramesses, from which the Hebrew slaves had escaped.

Likely the entire exodus was triggered by a series of catastrophes resulting from the cataclysmic eruption of the Aegean volcano Mt. Thera, which also destroyed the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations. Nine of the ten plagues of Egypt are extremely symptomatic of a volcanic eruption:

River of blood = red volcanic mud mixed with seawater, stinking of sulfur, washing up the Nile. The Egyptians, who obviously did not have the facilities to do a forensic examination of the salty red substance, assumed it to be blood. Even today the same stinking red mud bubbles up around Santorini, modern-day Mt. Thera.

Plague of frogs = frogs escaping from the saline mud that entered their habitat invaded the city.

Plagues of flies and lice = after the frogs died, the vermin feeding on their corpses flourished.

Plague of diseased livestock = noxious cloud of volcanic gas + diseases borne by flies and lice.

Sores and boils = caused by abrasive, allergenic volcanic ash, which Santorini is also famous for.

Fiery hailstones = rocks, lava and other ejecta propelled by explosive eruption.

Plague of locusts = locusts following a volcanic eruption is almost a cliche. See Mt. Pinatubo eruption in Philippines.

Plague of darkness = sun blotted out by thick cloud of volcanic ash. See Krakatoa and Tambora, Indonesia.

Death of firstborn: Egyptians sacrificed their firstborn to propitiate the angry gods who were causing these calamities. Hebrews, who believed it was their God who was causing them on their behalf, naturally felt themselves to be exempt from this necessity, instead sacrificing a lamb and smearing the blood on door posts and lintels.

When the Egyptians, starving, diseased, covered in boils, and scared out of their wits, were now thrown into despair by the loss of their firstborn, the Hebrews seized their opportunity to loot the town and escape. They followed a pillar of cloud during the day, and a pillar of fire during the night, Exodus tells us. This could be none other than the glowing column of smoke and ash of the continually erupting Mt. Thera.

Now back to the Reed Sea. Following a volcanic eruption, tsunamis are very common, particularly around lowland marshes. Again, see Krakatoa and Tambora, which caused tsunamis as far away as India. The tsunami is immediately preceded by a complete draining of the marsh, which lasts for two or three hours.

The Hebrews likely found themselves encamped on the banks of the Reed Sea just as the marsh drained, upon which they waded across, and were lucky enough to make it to the other side before the tsunami hit. Moses striking the sea with his staff (indeed, the existence of Moses at all), and Pharaoh’s army being swept away by the deluge, may well be later embellishments, but they sure make for an exciting story.

In sum, the story of the exodus is probably true… sort of. Just like a lot of other Bible stories are probably true… sort of.

In any case, I think that the power of a god was certainly demonstrated by the story of the exodus: the power of Hephaestus, the Greek god of fire… who set the Hebrews free quite unintentionally.[/quote]

Interesting…

Although I have no official position on this part of the OT because the data in inconclusive to me at this point. I would point out though that that William Dever’s would say that there was no Exodus at all. That most likely they Israelites were a nomadic group in Canaan that formed stories as the backbone of their culture.

I won’t say that I disagree with you varq. I actually hope that your version is correct. It would certainly lend more validity to those parts being actual history.

138

[quote]micromuscle wrote:
I was raised in a deeply Baptist family, you don’t even know! I feel that the Bible is a novel, with chapters added as it went along. Just as evangelists make money off of the “faithful” today, Jesus made a life out of spreading the word of God.

Religion, Christianity, and all the others, are a bunch of bigots, hypocrites, and demeaning to other religions. Until you die, you CANNOT claim there is only one God or creator. Its like saying Santa Clause is real, but the Easter Bunny isn’t.[/quote]

Thank you for your unhypocritical, and unbigoted stance on religion. Lumping us all together, and judging us really establishes your point.