[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Incidentally, haney, what Koine concordance software is that that you’re using? That looks pretty cool.[/quote]
Varq
it is e-sword you can download it for free as well as alot of other resources (ie. early writings of the chruch fathers, the works of Josephus) from their website
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Back to you, Lixy:
I would guess that the idea of the divinity of Jesus is considered blasphemous in Islam, inasmuch as God is without partner and without equal. [/quote]
Sure. The importance of that is such that a whole Surah (chapter) was devoted to the oneness of God.
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Quran - 112
I’m interested in a Christian perspective on this bit from th Bible.
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Mark 12:29
I heard some interpretations of it which left me unimpressed. Would you care sharing your take on how you reconcile that with Trinity?
100%
The prevailing theory is that he didn’t.
Interesting, that’s for sure. I can’t really analyze it because the concept of Trinity confuses me, but you made some good points.
IMHO though, the idea of God sacrificing his son for somebody’s sins don’t play well with personal responsibility. I explain: If we assume that somebody else can wash your sins off, you end up with a skewed game. That lead to all kinds of abuses like the Church selling tickets to heaven.
P.S: The picture is of an 18th century indulgence granted by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and sold by Greek monks in Wallachia
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
haney1 wrote:
Are you playing devil’s advocate…?
Ya got me.
Devil’s advocate is my favorite game.
I’d love to parse all of your excellent points, but it’s 2:15 AM and I’m ready to drop. Another day, perhaps?
V[/quote]
I understand I too am a fan of that game.
Anytime you want to pick this up, or any other topic I would be honored.
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
If you are really interested in learning about faith, notwithstanding Vanq’s learned posts, I suggest you rely on something other than forums. Try "The End of Faith, by Sam Harris.
[/quote]
That has to suck considering varq is actually a believer.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Back to you, Lixy:
I would guess that the idea of the divinity of Jesus is considered blasphemous in Islam, inasmuch as God is without partner and without equal.
Sure. The importance of that is such that a whole Surah (chapter) was devoted to the oneness of God.
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Quran - 112
I’m interested in a Christian perspective on this bit from th Bible.
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Mark 12:29
I heard some interpretations of it which left me unimpressed. Would you care sharing your take on how you reconcile that with Trinity?
[/quote]
Before I could reply to that I think a little ground work would need to be set. Since Islam believes the Bible to have become corrupted I would have to ask that for arguments sake we say that the Bible has not become corrupted.
This is in no way an admission on your part that you truly agree with that, but for a proper argument to be made from the Christian perspective it is required.
That is a two part answer.
It is a partial game. It is partially about your responsibility, and partially about you not being able to do even the simplist of things such as live a perfect life. Since you can’t be perfect, then God has to make the perfect sacrifice.
The second part is the Church just lied to a lot of people during that time. Which is why you have the term sola scriptura
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Andrew Dixon wrote:
This is a discussion forum. We can discuss politics and world issues and why not religion? Why the not question the creation of our universe?
Because discussions about the basis of faith tend to devolve into pissing matches along the lines of “if Superman and Spiderman got in a fight who would win”. In other words, discussions uncontaminated by evidence.
If you are really interested in learning about faith, notwithstanding Vanq’s learned posts, I suggest you rely on something other than forums. Try "The End of Faith, by Sam Harris.
[/quote]
Yesterday I purchased a book called ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins. Seems right up my alley.
[quote]
Varqanir wrote:
I would guess that the idea of the divinity of Jesus is considered blasphemous in Islam, inasmuch as God is without partner and without equal.
To which lixy replied:
Sure. The importance of that is such that a whole Surah (chapter) was devoted to the oneness of God.
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Quran - 112
Then when Varqanir wrote:
How many Muslims believe that he was born of a virgin?
Lixy replied:
100%
[/quote]So who begat Jesus, if God begets not? There is no contradiction in the Qur’an, I have heard, but we can’t have a non-begetting God begetting a son whilst remaining consistent. And Jesus could not have had a mortal father if he were actually born of a virgin, as 100% of Muslims believe.[quote]
Lixy wrote:
I heard some interpretations of it which left me unimpressed. Would you care sharing your take on how you reconcile that with Trinity?
[/quote]Well, the concept of the Trinity is problematic. The word is based on the Greek Τριας, meaning literally “three in one.” This word, however, appears nowhere in the Christian bible, nor does an Aramaic or Hebrew equivalent occur in the Hebrew bible.
The doctrine of Trinity was formalized at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, and one could say that Constantine, a Roman emperor who was simultaneously human and considered to be divine, found comfort in establishing a precedent in the form of Jesus for his supposed divinity. This is neither here nor there, however, although I’m sure Haney will have something to say about the matter. 
Several passages have been used to support the concept of a tripartite god, and you may examine them at your leisure.
John 1:1, 14 and 18
John 5:21
John 8:23 & 24
John 8:58
John 10:30
John 10:38
John 12:41
John 20:28
Philippians 2:5 & 6
Colossians 2:9
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
1st John 5:20
Revelation 1:17 & 18
However, they are kind of slippery, inasmuch as none of them occur in the three synoptic gospels, but only in the gospel of John, the Pauline epistles, and the book of Revelation. The author of John was a true believer, and really went out of his way to sell the idea of a divine Jesus, including adding his own theological and cosmological theories far beyond anything Jesus said himself.
And Paul? Well, Paul had his own agenda, and that’s a COMPLETELY different topic. But I don’t put too much stock in old Paul, for my own reasons. Neither do the Muslims, as far as I know.
In the other gospels, if Jesus ever came right out and talked about his divinity or divine origins, he did it in a way that could be plausibly denied later in court. “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” (…well, sure, if man was created in the image of God, this stands to reason).
And before Pontius Pilate, when explicitly asked about his divine origin and being, Jesus was evasive: “you have said it.” This, like almost every other statement of his on this subject, can be interpreted one of two ways: “yeah, you said it, brother!” meaning “yes”, or “well, that’s what you say”, meaning “no comment”.
Was Jesus the son of God? Well, sure. And so am I, and so are you. But interesting that the sobriquet he used most often to refer to himself was “the son of man”.
[quote]
Lixy wrote:
IMHO though, the idea of God sacrificing his son for somebody’s sins don’t play well with personal responsibility. I explain: If we assume that somebody else can wash your sins off, you end up with a skewed game. That lead to all kinds of abuses like the Church selling tickets to heaven. [/quote]
Precisely the point of my anecdote about the thief on the cross. Hardly any point of living an upright life, if a lifetime of sin can just be washed away at the last minute by saying “remember me, Jesus!”
Or by screaming “Allahu akbar,” either, for that matter.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Well, the concept of the Trinity is problematic. The word is based on the Greek Τριας, meaning literally “three in one.” This word, however, appears nowhere in the Christian bible, nor does an Aramaic or Hebrew equivalent occur in the Hebrew bible.
[/quote]
That is true, but the word second coming don’t appear in the Bible either, yet no one argues that the concept does not exist. Even Muslim’s agree that He is coming again.
It depends on how you are using the term formalized. If you mean it was set in stone at the time by the Church then I would agree. It seems to have had a long history of acceptance though long before that council.
[quote]
and one could say that Constantine, a Roman emperor who was simultaneously human and considered to be divine, found comfort in establishing a precedent in the form of Jesus for his supposed divinity. This is neither here nor there, however, although I’m sure Haney will have something to say about the matter.
[/quote] Other than there is no supporting evidence I have nothing to say.
The question then becomes is John right in his belief, and was his writing inspired?
perhaps we can have this discussion later
In modern language it would be considered as you say. In 1st century Judea the linguistics are far less abiguous as you claim.
For instance Luke 22:70 - 71
There was no denial in their language. In our modern day terms it would be considered devisive.
Because it is refering to the OT term. specifically used in Daniel
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed
[quote]
Precisely the point of my anecdote about the thief on the cross. Hardly any point of living an upright life, if a lifetime of sin can just be washed away at the last minute by saying “remember me, Jesus!”
Or by screaming “Allahu akbar,” either, for that matter.[/quote]
The problem is that this line of thought takes the emotions out of ones decision to serve God. Logically it is spot on. We are emotional beings even those of us who pride our self on logic.
for instance anytime you give into breaking you diet when you know you shouldn’t that is an emotional decision.
When it comes to God, and the truth you have to make a decision. If you truly believe in God, but choose not to accept the truth of that revelation because you want to “squeeze out every last bit of life” I doubt salvation awaits you since your are not sincere in your acceptance of the truth.
I know of no person who believes something but refuses to accept it because the time is not right for them to give up what they previously believed.
Evil heretic Varqanir (at right) marveling at true believer Haney’s extensive theological resources.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
Varq
it is e-sword you can download it for free as well as alot of other resources (ie. early writings of the chruch fathers, the works of Josephus) from their website
[/quote]
Curses! Foiled again. Apparently it is only for PC. We evil heretic Mac users are left in the lurch.
[quote]lixy wrote:
P.S: The picture is of an 18th century indulgence granted by the Patriarch of Jerusalem and sold by Greek monks in Wallachia[/quote]
Ooooh, Wallachia.
That region was extremely notorious during the 16th century (just after the conquest of Constantinople), for one of its most devout Christians, a count named Vlad Tepes who impaled about 50,000 Turks, and about the same number of his own countrymen.
He was known as “Son of the Dragon”, which in Romanian is “Drakulja.”
Yes, we are talking about Count Dracula.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Evil heretic Varqanir (at right) marveling at true believer Haney’s extensive theological resources.
haney1 wrote:
Varq
it is e-sword you can download it for free as well as alot of other resources (ie. early writings of the chruch fathers, the works of Josephus) from their website
Curses! Foiled again. Apparently it is only for PC. We evil heretic Mac users are left in the lurch.[/quote]
That reminds me of an old Emo Phillips joke:
[i]"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?”
I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said, “Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?” He said, “Baptist church of god!” I said, "Me too!
Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said, “Reformed baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off."[/i]
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off."[/quote]
Hahahahaa!!! Yes!
Five minutes after I put up the evil heretic post, that old Emo joke came back to me, and I was going to post it myself, but I got sidetracked and you beat me to it. Well done.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Evil heretic Varqanir (at right) marveling at true believer Haney’s extensive theological resources.
haney1 wrote:
Varq
it is e-sword you can download it for free as well as alot of other resources (ie. early writings of the chruch fathers, the works of Josephus) from their website
Curses! Foiled again. Apparently it is only for PC. We evil heretic Mac users are left in the lurch.[/quote]
lol… Thats good!
As my dad used to always tell me there is a little heretic in all of us.
I am certainly considered one at my church. Luckily I only go there for the sunday morning coffee, and donuts.
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Evil heretic Varqanir (at right) marveling at true believer Haney’s extensive theological resources.
haney1 wrote:
Varq
it is e-sword you can download it for free as well as alot of other resources (ie. early writings of the chruch fathers, the works of Josephus) from their website
Curses! Foiled again. Apparently it is only for PC. We evil heretic Mac users are left in the lurch.
That reminds me of an old Emo Phillips joke:
[i]"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?”
I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said, “Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?” He said, “Baptist church of god!” I said, "Me too!
Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said, “Reformed baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off."[/i][/quote]
tear in my eye
reminds me of my church when I was growing up!
Quick question: What’s an a-mill?
[quote]pookie wrote:
Quick question: What’s an a-mill?
[/quote]
An a-mill is a great mill. If you need some serious stuff from a mill, don’t settle for a b-mill. Always go to an a-mill.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
Before I could reply to that I think a little ground work would need to be set. Since Islam believes the Bible to have become corrupted I would have to ask that for arguments sake we say that the Bible has not become corrupted.
This is in no way an admission on your part that you truly agree with that, but for a proper argument to be made from the Christian perspective it is required. [/quote]
I’m perfectly alright with making that assumption.
My intent is not to quibble but merely to understand your perspective.
[quote]That is a two part answer.
It is a partial game. It is partially about your responsibility, and partially about you not being able to do even the simplist of things such as live a perfect life. Since you can’t be perfect, then God has to make the perfect sacrifice. [/quote]
As a believer myself, I can only concur.
So I’ve been told.
I’m afraid you missed the point I was trying to make though. When Jesus as a man, is able to erase sins and grant entry to the heavens, it opens the door to serious abuse. That is, if God gave Jesus the power to wash sins off, what’s stopping somebody else from claiming he/she is capable of doing the same?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
So who begat Jesus, if God begets not? There is no contradiction in the Qur’an, I have heard, but we can’t have a non-begetting God begetting a son whilst remaining consistent. And Jesus could not have had a mortal father if he were actually born of a virgin, as 100% of Muslims believe. [/quote]
God begat Jesus no more than he begat Adam, you or me. The Quran explains that in details. God sent the angel Gabriel to do the job. Now, that is not to say they fornicated or anything but you get my point.
Come to think of it, how hard is it to circumvent the hymen surgically and inseminate a chick. I’m no expert in anatomy but am confident that it’s possible in theory.
The Wiki quotes the Quranic verses of interest:
[i]The Qur’an quite decisively declares that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth, but that neither she nor her son were divine, but merely “honoured servants” (21.26).
The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 and 19 of The Qur’an wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin:
The Qur’an discusses Mary’s miraculous pregnancy as well. “Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.” (Qur’an 19:16-17).
After seeing the angel, she said: “I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God.” (Qur’an 19:18). The angel Gabriel responded: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a pure son.” (Qur’an 19:19). She asked: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” (Qur’an 19:20).
The Angel Gabriel said: “So (it will be): thy Lord saith, ‘That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us.’ It is a matter (so) decreed.” (Qur’an 19:21). Mary then becomes pregnant.
After conceiving Jesus, Mary went away with the baby to a distant place (Qur’an 19:22). “And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She cried (in her anguish): ‘Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten!’” (Qur’an 19:23).
Joseph, the magi, and manger are not mentioned in the Qur’an. God was Mary’s only Provider. Muslims do not accept the virgin birth of Jesus as evidence of Jesus’ divinity. “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.” (Qur’an 3:59).[/i]
That was enjoyable to read.
Hmmm…I guess all that talk about begetting was not necessary then.
[quote]Precisely the point of my anecdote about the thief on the cross. Hardly any point of living an upright life, if a lifetime of sin can just be washed away at the last minute by saying “remember me, Jesus!”
Or by screaming “Allahu akbar,” either, for that matter.[/quote]
That wasn’t the point I made. I can understand that God grants forgiveness to whomever He chooses, that is one of His prerogatives. Problems arise with a man doing the same.
There are some points you overlooked in your analysis. First, there are many Heavens in the Quran as well as many Hells. It makes no sense sending the thief Jesus forgave to the same Heaven as, say the virgin Mary.
Otherwise, why devote yourself to God when you can get away with the minimum possible. Secondly, death bed repentance is harshly frowned upon. Because, despite what the Simpsons would have you believe, God is not “the invisible giant you turn to when you’re about to die”. Plus, what are the chances of you knowing the time of your death. The only way you’re gonna know it will lead you straight to Hell.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
Even Muslim’s agree that He is coming again. [/quote]
No, we don’t. We agree that he is coming again.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Curses! Foiled again. Apparently it is only for PC. We evil heretic Mac users are left in the lurch.[/quote]
I, for one, use a Linux powered Mac. How’s that for heresy?