That’s wonderful. When these theories are proven, and if/when this idea becomes common knowledge, then the rest of world can jump on board. Until then, only the enlightened wealthy (or those who don’t mind risking losing everything to legal repercussions) can reap the benefit of the message you preach…
Do the whole “king and peasants” satirical references make more sense now?
Thanks for sharing his response. Very smooth, I give you guys credit for trying to steer the debate towards terms that may be favorable to your position, regardless of what the other person has said. I can give uneducated folks a pass since they don’t know any better but for an educated person who claims to understand the literature, this is inexcusable. This is what you call an academic con job of “look up here, not down there”. Nowhere in my above posts did I say my main concern was hypercoagulation. Scott hasn’t shared one item that refutes anything I’ve shared regarding Hct and blood viscosity. I take it then you agree with the facts as I’ve presented them?
The primary concern with elevated blood viscosity is hypertension, increased shear stress to the lumen (I’m sure you are familiar with what that does), and risk of ischemia and reduced perfusion for compromised patients / older patients. Also, what’s the concern with young person running high blood viscosity for years? Ask AAS abusers what the long term implications of elevated Hct are? Integrate out over 20 years the cost of making your heart do extra, measurably more work. Combine that with a patient who has limited vasodilation ability. Do you guys hand out 50 mg of losartan/day with your TRT program?
No discussion of concern re: LVH with medium/long term elevation of blood viscosity. So according to this logic, no worries with elevating serum viscosity, just let it ride? For a patient with plenty of mileage on the heart, pre-CHF or CHF, no worries with cranking up the blood viscosity? Harmless?
This response is lazy and avoids having to discuss the fact the heart is a pump and a pump is designed to operate on a pump curve (just to keep it simple). Depending on the viscosity of the fluid the pump is pumping, you will land on a point on that curve. Surely you understand the long term implications of running a pump too high on the gpm vs hp curve? Any concerns for long term issues if you want that pump in service for a while? We aint talking about a pump in a manufacturing facility that can be replaced rather easily. We are talking about a heart.
For folks who talk about optimization, you seem to not understand or ignore the penalty function associated with performance vs longevity. For readers, I’ve shared what I think is important for you to consider. Take care of your cardiovascular system. That means use reasonable caution. Running your Hct above 50, or even 55 is not that. But given the TT levels you guys are recommending, I can see how this little inconvenience causes an issue. Elevated Hct has to be harmless in your practice otherwise you have to have your patients doing an oil drain on a regular, painful basis.
I hardly consider his reply ‘lazy’. He’s a very high level guy who also teaches PhD students. He’s heading the research facility for Tier 1 now and is working hard to provide all the studies we discuss. He didn’t need to reply to this, but he did. I’ll forward him your response and see what he says…
This is all quite entertaining, and I wanted to chime in to say my Dr has me on 280mg T weekly, trying to get FT up over 30ng. All covered by insurance (UHC). I have blood work next month, but so far I feel amazing. No AI, no HCG, just Test. Started mk-677 last night to boost appetite (IGF-1 was 134ng). Anyway, my doc is very open minded and reads lots of the studies I show him. We talk about topics I read on here at every visit. Very forward-thinking guy.
Looking forward for your answer, yes Im gonna watch the video now thankyou.
This is hardly kings and peasants. We are now in the know because we took the time to look things up and get educated. The same can be said about tons of other people in tons of different fields. Anyone taking the time can find the videos that are getting popular on YouTube from The Lifting Dermatologist and other such channels and eventually figure out the best way to do things. This is hardly stuff for the rich and famous. As for the theories, they’ve bee doing this for awhile with consistent results. Now they have to do the studies to demonstrate their findings and bring the literature to the masses. I assure you, the face of TRT will change drastically over the coming years.
Not lazy in an effort sense. Lazy in an intellectual sense to avoid having to deal with the relevant issues I raise. His critique does not follow from my comments. If it’s ignorance on his part, then I apologize. But he’s a MechE, so I’m sure he is familiar with pumps. And don’t throw him under the bus if you aren’t sharing with him what I shared on this thread. Search for the term clot or coagulation anywhere in my statements. I appreciate the exchange though.
No he didn’t have to reply, and @yeti308 didn’t have to comment that I don’t know anything about viscosity or Hct. Let me know when you find errors.
That was a joke, but put two and two together man…
Unproven (at least in the long term sense) theories being touted as the greatest thing in TRT since high gauge needles, coupled with the fact that you can’t even test this for yourself unless you use black market Test (which I personally think is playing with fire), or you come to the very ones boasting the idea for your care… I mean c’mon man…
If it quacks like a duck…
@bmbrady77 if you could just see how many of the guys in our group are doing well with this. How they describe it. Life changing. It changed my own life. This is hardly ‘if it quacks like a duck’ stuff. I have a doctor prescribing 300mg of testosterone a week, covered by insurance, but it was difficult to do. Most guys would have double my levels on that dose. It’s just the dose I need. Everything they do is completely legit. I guarantee you that the guys doing injections today will be on creams in the coming months/years. Absolutely.
@equel how can I reach you directly? If you have FB, please message me: Danny Bossa
Just 10 years ago Normal was over 1500 for some labs. Easy paper to find. Morgentaler was one of the authors. Look it up. There’s your proof. Study up on the effects of EDCs in the endocrine system especially the male reproductive system, the androgen receptors, and the interference with transcription and translation, and when you have we can talk about it. Don’t forget it wasn’t but a few years ago we thought testosterone caused prostate cancer and that giving it was like putting gasoline on a fire. The literature now shows otherwise. The literature also shows otherwise with regard to using AIs and the erythrocytosis testosterone causes (it’s not PCV). So we can theorize all we want but to know if something causes something you give it and observe what happens. Testosterone and it’s erythrocytosis is not harmful. 80 years of studies shows that and all I ask is you produce one that shows it has caused harm. Not a single randomized control trial has shown that.
@readalot I forwarded everything you sent both to Dr Nichols and Dr Howell. Dr Howell replied as your statements were more technical. I have forwarded him your response to him. I’m simply acting as a messenger between you two in this case.
Try reading literature and not sites. Produce some actual literature of men in testosterone and the erythrocytosis causing harm as that is what we are talking about. Just one
So to bring this argument full circle…
You guys are saying that if you have symptoms that could be associated with high E2, what that really means is that your testosterone levels are not high enough. If you testosterone levels are already at the top of the range that any normal doctor can prescribe without having his license revoked, then either get it done UG or come see your docs. They can fix you right up…
Well, for the guys who can’t afford your docs, and also refuse to go the UGL route, they are stuck with a top of the range testosterone with high E2 without any means of rectifying that. That leaves them these options…
A. Find more money
B. LOWER testosterone levels and feel even more miserable…
C. Lower E2 until aromatase issues can be resolved…
What is your advice to these guys?
Won’t argue that. Does that paper also say that normal Free T ranges were over 40 as Danny stated?
And you guys are STILL avoiding the question of legality…
Serious question - are there any sites you can link to or point us to where we can search for and read some of these studies? Sorry, not exactly sure what to Google/know if there is a central location on line for these things.
Thanks again
How much do you think my protocol costs me a month? About $20 USD a month with my insurance. Appointments with my doc cost about $100. Is that out of reach for you?
No that is completely affordable. Can your doc give ME these prices and prescribe me those levels in the USA?
There are tons of guys in our group that who just scrape by, month by month, and manage to get a proper protocol.
@yeti308 every time I see someone mention E2 issues you I giggle now. Thanks for that. I think? 
Guys, FORGET about E2. Pretend it doesn’t exist. Do as close to daily administration as you can and increase dose until your symptoms resolve.
Why is this so complicated? For the rest of us, it’s really quite easy. I’m not trying to be condescending here, trust me. However, many of you don’t feel great and when we propose a better way which is massively improving people’s lives, you resist. Would it be better to just keep doing what you’re doing?
Am I allowed to post screenshots of some of the stuff we get in our group of men from HERE getting off the AI and it literally changes their life? I have a folder chock full of these screenshots. No BS.