Believers: What Would You Do?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]

If there is no god, good and evil and love don’t exist, so your question is meaningless.[/quote]

Where people grow up with no concept of a personal God, or ever having read the bible, they still have a firm concept of morality, fairness, compassion, etc.

122

[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]

If there is no god, good and evil and love don’t exist, so your question is meaningless.[/quote]

Where people grow up with no concept of a personal God, or ever having read the bible, they still have a firm concept of morality, fairness, compassion, etc.
[/quote]

You confuse belief in god with the existence of god. One does not affect the other.

124

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
This post from Pat got me thinking:

[quote]That’s precisely what I meant. Leading a good life has no ultimate value if nothing happens when you die or are killed. This true for anybody, theist and atheist alike. Problem is, leading a good life is damned hard, it’s far easier to lead a narcissistic life. I’d like to think in the end, hard work and sacrifice mean something more than “He was a nice fellow, to bad he’s worm food now”
Contrary, I’d like to think assholes like stalin got more than a peaceful death on a comfy bed. There is no real justice in this world, but justice does come in some way or another.[/quote]

I have a sincere question for the believers out there. Please take a few mins to think about it rather than shooting from the hip, because I’m genuinely interested in what you would do.

What if you learned that there was no god, and no afterlife? I realize we can’t know this, but let’s say you did.

How would this knowledge affect the way you live your life?

Would you start murdering people, robbing people, lying to people, etc.? What if you knew you could get away with it? Would anything stop you from doing it?

Would you still love people? Would you try to help others, even if there was no reward for doing so?

Would you spend more time with your loved ones, or less? Would you tell them you love them more, or less? Would you care about their happiness more, or less?

I’m genuinely curious, because I asked myself all of these questions after stepping back from my religious beliefs. I asked myself how the possibility of this life being all there is would affect my values, and the way I live my life.

Obviously the realization would be shocking, confusing, and dismaying. But what about after that? What would you do with the rest of your life?[/quote]

If there is no god, good and evil and love don’t exist, so your question is meaningless.[/quote]

Would you be ok with murdering people? Would you still try to help people?[/quote]

It’s like asking to pretend the background music isn’t playing in our head. We’re this way due possibly to nature, and most certainly from nurture (from ealier or later in life).

Ask me if I’d own slaves in the old South. Sure I could say no, but I couldn’t really mean it with any certainty. This is just as pointless.[/quote]

It’s not an abstract thought experiment, I’m genuinely interested in knowing how that realization would affect the way you treat people.

I know how the belief affected my own perceptions and my own behavior, but I’m curious how it would affect yours.

For myself, I realized that not believing in a god didn’t translate to feeling free to do whatever I want, as long as I could get away with it. I still valued honesty, treating others with respect, etc.

How would it affect you? Are your values 100% dependent on your belief in god and the afterlife, and would you toss away all of those values if you realized there is no god or afterlife? Why or why not?[/quote]

My journey, being similar to yours, I believe, has lead me to a far greater and deeper feeling of compassion for my fellow humans. As a ‘religious’ person, I was far more judgemental than now, even though I blindly believed otherwise. I have become a MUCH better communicator as well… now that I’m not constantly trying to win arguments over the existence and nature of an abstract being. I am also FAR more comfortable really listening to other people’s concepts about mystical/philosophical beliefs.

But I’m not as apt to ‘turn the other cheek’ now either. I have noticed that the idea of this life potentially being ‘All’ that there is has lead me to crave achievement and begrudge any and all butt f*ckery. Also the anger I feel over such things leads me to more positive and proactive behavior, since I’m not waiting for G-d in his wisdom to solve my problems, or take the pain away, or punish the wicked in his own time…

125

Morality is a word we use to validate a system by which actions detrimental to societal cooperation are discouraged and punished. Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.

126

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Even …animal societies, demonstrate altruistic and protective behavior, toward their offspring for example. Would you agree that this is the case?

[/quote]

You mean like the male lions on that savanna I mentioned? The ones that eat their own young? Habitually?
[/quote]

If you look up “informal fallacies” in a basic logic textbook, you might actually find this exact exchange in the examples section.

127

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

…Fair enough, but I think it would be different for others. Even if I were an atheist, I would still believe in treating people with respect. Not because a supernatural being told me to do so, but because I value humanity for their own sake.[/quote]

It can easily be argued that the value you place on humanity for their own sake is a direct and indirect result of your (past), and society’s (past and present) intrinsic knowledge and recognition of an omnipotent Creator and Judge.[/quote]

If that were true, atheistic societies would place no value at all on human life. You don’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to treat others with respect. [/quote]

There’s no such thing as a “pure”, insulated atheist society. Sorry.[/quote]

Then think within the hypothetical scenario, where there is no god and no afterlife.

[/quote]

You don’t get it, do you? You have repeatedly been schooled here on how that is an impossibility (to think within the hypothetical scenario you suggest.

My best answer is to look at societies in history that are as godless as can be and draw your inferences from them.

Another suggestion is to look at animal (godless of course) societies - because a godless animal society of humans is your tacit postulate - and develop some reasonable ideas what that would look like.

Is there rape and murder on the savanna? How about the wild lands of Montana? The Amazon? The steppes of Mongolia? The Arctic?

You seem pretty rude, but maybe I’m internally implying emotions behind the words you type that aren’t truly implied. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In point of fact there are examples of societies throughout history that for all intents and purposes were and still are ‘Godless’, and they weren’t really all that different from societies that were practically a theocracy.

When I did the years of study that eventually contributed to leaving ‘faith’, I researched many societies with monotheistic, polytheistic, etc diciplines and found that unerringly their histories showed ‘the same’ tendencies, triumphs, and tragedies. They are subject to the exact same kinds of failures and acheivments, and are seemingly JUST as vulnerable to natural disasters and unforeseen occurances as the ‘faithful’ under ‘the one true G-d’s’ guidance.

128

[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

…Fair enough, but I think it would be different for others. Even if I were an atheist, I would still believe in treating people with respect. Not because a supernatural being told me to do so, but because I value humanity for their own sake.[/quote]

It can easily be argued that the value you place on humanity for their own sake is a direct and indirect result of your (past), and society’s (past and present) intrinsic knowledge and recognition of an omnipotent Creator and Judge.[/quote]

If that were true, atheistic societies would place no value at all on human life. You don’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to treat others with respect. [/quote]

There’s no such thing as a “pure”, insulated atheist society. Sorry.[/quote]

Then think within the hypothetical scenario, where there is no god and no afterlife.

[/quote]

You don’t get it, do you? You have repeatedly been schooled here on how that is an impossibility (to think within the hypothetical scenario you suggest.

My best answer is to look at societies in history that are as godless as can be and draw your inferences from them.

Another suggestion is to look at animal (godless of course) societies - because a godless animal society of humans is your tacit postulate - and develop some reasonable ideas what that would look like.

Is there rape and murder on the savanna? How about the wild lands of Montana? The Amazon? The steppes of Mongolia? The Arctic?

You seem pretty rude, but maybe I’m internally implying emotions behind the words you type that aren’t truly implied. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In point of fact there are examples of societies throughout history that for all intents and purposes were and still are ‘Godless’, and they weren’t really all that different from societies that were practically a theocracy.

When I did the years of study that eventually contributed to leaving ‘faith’, I researched many societies with monotheistic, polytheistic, etc diciplines and found that unerringly their histories showed ‘the same’ tendencies, triumphs, and tragedies. They are subject to the exact same kinds of failures and acheivments, and are seemingly JUST as vulnerable to natural disasters and unforeseen occurances as the ‘faithful’ under ‘the one true G-d’s’ guidance. [/quote]

Well said, and very true.

131

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Yep. Good and evil, inalienable rights, and so on depend on faith. Without faith, there is no way to say I KNOW rape is evil. I KNOW that I have a right to life.

Now, I do say such things. But, I’m superstitious like that =P

132

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Even if I were an atheist, I would still believe in treating people with respect. >>>[/quote]What you (or I) believe has nothing to do with reality.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Not because a supernatural being told me to do so, but because I value humanity for their own sake.[/quote]And you would still be doing it as you are now because of the sin restraining all ordering power of the God who “works all things after the counsel of His own will”. Your value of humanity is no more valid or not than Jeffery Dahmer’s .

133

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
…Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Sheer unadulterated nonsense.[/quote]

haha I must have missed the part where your faith in primitive scripture had been objectively validated beyond any doubt.

Oh wait, that’s because the exact opposite has been happening for fucking centuries.

134

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Yep. Good and evil, inalienable rights, and so on depend on faith. Without faith, there is no way to say I KNOW rape is evil. I KNOW that I have a right to life.

Now, I do say such things. But, I’m superstitious like that =P[/quote]

Which is my point: faith is necessary for absolute morality, faith is belief in the unprovable, therefore absolute morality is unprovable.

135

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Yep. Good and evil, inalienable rights, and so on depend on faith. Without faith, there is no way to say I KNOW rape is evil. I KNOW that I have a right to life.

Now, I do say such things. But, I’m superstitious like that =P[/quote]

Which is my point: faith is necessary for absolute morality, faith is belief in the unprovable, therefore absolute morality is unprovable.[/quote]

Yep, thus a faithless society not only has an unproveable moral code (evil and good), it doesn’t even have faith in it’s own ‘moral’ code. Not much of a foundation.

137

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
…Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Sheer unadulterated nonsense.[/quote]

haha I must have missed the part where your faith in primitive scripture had been objectively validated beyond any doubt.

Oh wait, that’s because the exact opposite has been happening for fucking centuries.

[/quote]

Sheer unadulterated nonsense.
[/quote]

You, sir, have a way with words.

138

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Some sort of absolute ethical code has not been–and presumably never will be–shown to exist, either on its own or, as is more commonly posited, as a system contingent upon some supranatural judge, or God.[/quote]

Yep. Good and evil, inalienable rights, and so on depend on faith. Without faith, there is no way to say I KNOW rape is evil. I KNOW that I have a right to life.

Now, I do say such things. But, I’m superstitious like that =P[/quote]

Which is my point: faith is necessary for absolute morality, faith is belief in the unprovable, therefore absolute morality is unprovable.[/quote]

Yep, thus a faithless society not only has an unproveable moral code (evil and good), it doesn’t even have faith in it’s own ‘moral’ code. Not much of a foundation.[/quote]

And yet millions of people live in such a world, many of them in the relatively peaceful haven of Western Europe.

140

[quote]smh23 wrote:
And yet millions of people live in such a world, many of them in the relatively peaceful haven of Western Europe.[/quote]

No they don’t. They live in a world steeped in religion. Oozing with it. Their customs, norms, and values still shaped over history, regardless of what they’ve managed to trample underfoot so far. They know of religion, they know of the concept of God, and deny as much as they’d like, they still struggle with it and make decisions with it in the back of their minds.

As to the lessining impact of basic shared religious beliefs, that’s another topic. But, one of these days, demographically speaking, they’re going to have to ask where they’re going to get the young workers needed to support their gray population (well indirectly, through taxes). We already see it to a degree. The fertility rates are already abysmal. But not that of the much more orthodox and fundamentalist immigrants stopping in. The righteous shall inherit Western Europe, too. =P