[quote]pittbulll wrote:
he’s got it , there are all types of people trying to take other peoples rights away
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[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are plain wrong. You do not have the right to treatment by a doctor.[/quote]
I thought I made your head hurt ? I have the right to treatment if the doctor agrees, Semantics (eye roll)
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That’s not a right it’s an agreement between 2 parties. You do make my head hurt. It’s not semantics.
Wow, both sides are making my head hurt with this one. Your “rights” are just protected by government. You have protections for your freedom of speech, religion, right to bear arms, etc. Health care could easily be a right if we decided it would be.
All Americans have the right to health care, and you cannot deny any American proper health care for any reason. This could easily be done. We MADE freedom of speech a right, and we can essentially make anything a right, it isn’t like the Constitution CAN’T be changed.
This is a silly debate though because YOUR right to health care requires a significant financial cost. It requires all sorts of people to work to make that become something everyone can have. And who decides what the proper amount of health care is? After all if I’m rich right now my health care might be very different than someone poor.
What if I want a sex change? Do I have that right? Why not? What if I want me teeth whitened? I have a RIGHT to health care! We’re forcing people who deserve great compensation (it isn’t easy to be a doctor) for what they do to be in a government monopoly. Government doesn’t tend to run things better than private industry. It’s going to take a LOT of tax dollars to give adequate health care to 300 million people. (who defines adequate anyways?)
What do we do about the person who wants operate on for any old thing? I guess let the government be the decider of all decisions health care wise? Doesn’t tend to work out well, and doesn’t sound like liberty to me.
If we all have a right to health care then don’t we also have a right to have the best possible person doing this? Why should I, middle class citizen, not get the number one brain surgeon in America to work on me if Warren Buffet has him?
The problem in the rights debate is because our rights are supposed to be equal. We can all have the same amount of freedom of speech, or the press, or religion. That doesn’t come at a significant financial cost to make me the same as Warren Buffet. Health care does. And if it’s a right, then we ALL get the best stuff. Otherwise it isn’t really a right and we aren’t really equal in the right to health care.
It just opens a gigantic can of worms to determine it is a right protected as our other rights are, and most people in charge of putting the government in everything don’t see this.
That said, our current system before Obamacare was already broke beyond belief, but I’d argue more government isn’t the solution.
And why is healthcare more important anyways? Why doesn’t everyone have a right to a house? A right to food? A right to awesome clothes? What could possibly be the problem with ensuring government provides all these as well?
[quote]H factor wrote:
We MADE freedom of speech a right, [/quote]
False, very very false.
We made a legal document that prevents our government from taking away our right to liberty.
Rights aren’t man made, that is why healthcare isn’t a right, nor is houses, wages, or any of that…
Rights can not be created or destroyed, only protected or trampled.
[quote]H factor wrote:
The problem in the rights debate is because our rights are supposed to be equal. [/quote]
All rights are equal, and always have been, always will be.
The problem is government not protecting everyone’s rights equally under the law.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I may knock down the tent myself, depends
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It isn’t a surprise that your solution to people who disagree with you is violence and civil unrest.
I mean, why have integrity, it’s all hard and stuff…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
False, very very false.
We made a legal document that prevents our government from taking away our right to liberty.
Rights aren’t man made, that is why healthcare isn’t a right, nor is houses, wages, or any of that…
Rights can not be created or destroyed, only protected or trampled.
[/quote]
I used to think like that but don’t now. It all sounds great in theory and it makes great internet or high school essay material but it doesn’t mean anything from a practical standpoint. That is to say why aren’t rights man made? Why would any rights be just something that we somehow deserve by being alive? That’s bullshit in my mind and the only rights that you deserve are the ones that the people go out and preserve.
The only reason that you’ve got the right to “free speech” (you don’t really but that’s another story) here is because we defend that right. If you live somewhere like China, Iran, or North Korea you don’t have that right. We don’t “deserve” anything aside from what we struggle for.
james
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
We MADE freedom of speech a right, [/quote]
False, very very false.
We made a legal document that prevents our government from taking away our right to liberty.
Rights aren’t man made, that is why healthcare isn’t a right, nor is houses, wages, or any of that…
Rights can not be created or destroyed, only protected or trampled.
[/quote]
Of course we MADE it a right and of course rights are man made. I’m really not following this line of thinking. Our rights are the very things our founders decided were important enough to BE PROTECTED. This was the stuff deemed so important that it was made worthy of being protected. They DECIDED to protect these things. Ideas are man made, therefore rights are man made. Freedom of speech is a concept, thought up by men. We decided to make everyone entitled to this, but the idea that we can’t create new rights doesn’t make any sense. Any society can create any rights it wants to.
Healthcare SHOULDN’T be one for the problems and reasons I’ve already mentioned with making it a right.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I used to think like that but don’t now.[/quote]
Funny, because I’ve come from where you are to where I am, lol.
I think statements like this prove how spoiled and lazy we’ve become. 200-300 years ago people gave up their life for the protection of thier natural rights, shit the Greeks did it long before that with the Persians fast approaching. People laid down their lives to be able to determine their own course, their own governance, freedom.
We have literally gotten to the point where we’ve forgetten (or ignored) the thousands of years of struggle by men to establish a government that wasn’t horrid to the ruled.
Man made rights are just what these people died to defend themselves against. Because other men don’t get to tell you how to live your life, assuming you aren’t taking the rights of another.
Man made rights gave us slavery. Natural rights end it (eventually).
Because we have brains and emotions, thoughts and feelings, because we are “aware”.
Nature wouldn’t give us this if we were made to be fodder for a select few other men…
[quote]and the only rights that you deserve are the ones that the people go out and preserve.
The only reason that you’ve got the right to “free speech” (you don’t really but that’s another story) here is because we defend that right. If you live somewhere like China, Iran, or North Korea you don’t have that right. We don’t “deserve” anything aside from what we struggle for.
james
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Many a man has struggled to give us the government we (are supposed to) have. And it wouldn’t matter where I lived. I have those rights, it is a matter of whether or not my government tramples the right or protects it.
Our government was set up to protect natual rights. North Korea’s government is set up to establish and rule by man made rights. Which place is better? Who is more free?
I must say it boggles my mind people do not have the basic understanding of rights . The right to pursue happiness is broad , if it makes you happy to make others miserable , you have the right , You have the right to break any law you like , you are also subject to the laws of the land .
[quote]H factor wrote:
Of course we MADE it a right and of course rights are man made. [/quote]
This is silly, and ignores the evolution of thousands of years in the minds and acts of a multitude of singular geniuses.
Enlightenment to the world around you doesn’t mean something new has been created. We didn’t make liberty a right, we only had the idea of protecting it for our people. We did, however, become enlightened to the fact we have the right to liberty by virtue of life.
It’s not in the manual?
I would suggest reading about the 17th and 18th century political thought between England and the New World.
I guess the Greeks never were then?
lol.
It isn’t like Jefferson wrote the Declaration on the shitter and pulled this stuff out of thin air. It took human thought and struggle of thousands of years and wars to bring forth that document by the people for the people. Just happened the pen was in his hand.
Yes, because they need to be protected. Why do they need to be protected? Because by the virtue of life you and I and everyone has been granted these truths. A government shouldn’t be able to stifle these truths.
Again, rights are not ideas. And mankind didn’t just make this stuff up one day on a whim. Their free will led them to find the truths self evident.
No. Preventing or manipulating communication is a concept thought up by men. Speech is an evolutionary advantage given to men by nature/God/god/whatever to advance and survive.
Um no, no we didn’t. Black men weren’t given their rights right away… The government failed in that reguard for awhile.
In fact we did the opposite of what you said here, and had to change our government to address the fact that everyone had these rights.
No one is entitled, because they aren’t given, they just are.
This is what you don’t comprehend. Rights aren’t given, the just are. They weren’t constructed, they were noticed, seen.
When man figured out how to cast iron, they didn’t create cast iron, they harnest it. We didn’t create rights, we recognized them and protected them. (Well tried to. Thanks government for messing that up)
[quote] but the idea that we can’t create new rights doesn’t make any sense. Any society can create any rights it wants to.
[/quote]
Silly, just plain silly.
Nature gives us the ability to do whatever we please. That’s really it. We can lie, murder, cheat, steal, do whatever we want. Governments are setup to keep people from infringing on other peoples “rights.” What rights are those? Exactly the stuff we SAY you have a right to be protected from other people infringing upon.
The natural part is just to say that this is what you get by being born, by being a human being in our society. Of course these are malleable, why wouldn’t they be? Why was it ok to establish these 200 hundred years ago but not now?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That’s not a right it’s an agreement between 2 parties. You do make my head hurt. It’s not semantics. [/quote]
two people have the right to make any deal they like , I would recommend you see a doctor about your head , you seem to have a VERY low threshold of pain maybe even described as sensitive
Hyperalgesi is my diagnosys
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Our government was set up to protect natual rights. North Korea’s government is set up to establish and rule by man made rights. Which place is better? Who is more free? [/quote]
But we have fought for those rights. Slavery and segregation was a right but people fought against that and for their own freedom. If they didn’t fight, if they didn’t struggle then they wouldn’t have those rights. Throughout history people haven’t just sat back and expected something. They fought for it. Whether the fight was through words or through swords, the result was all the same.
North Korea can be free. They can have the same rights as the south but they have to be willing to fight and die for it. And that’s a very hard thing to do and it might not work.
And I disagree about our government being set up to defend natural rights. The government is a mirror of the things that we think are important. We have free speech because we ask for it and we defend it. I should have the right to travel through this country without being harassed but that right was taken away. We will lose every other right we have if we’re not careful.
james
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I must say it boggles my mind people do not have the basic understanding of rights .[/quote]
I agree with you, even though this is the only statement you’ve made on the subject with any merit.
No not really.
Again, history books lay this out pretty clearly for you.
Are you serious right now? Literal much?
You don’t have the “right to break a law”. You have the right to liberty. If you act in a manor that violates the laws set forth by government due to your own free will, you will be punished.
And you know this because PEOPLE made this apparent. They said it was so. It was a man made idea. Government was created for this very reason according to the founders.
Also please see above post. It really isn’t silly, it’s logic.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Again, history books lay this out pretty clearly for you.
[/quote]
Again dictionary the word rights has a set meaning
[quote]H factor wrote:
What rights are those? [/quote]
These are laid out pretty clearly over and over again throughout history.
No. We don’t say what is a right or isn’t. We say what the government allows under the law.
You are confusing rights and government. They aren’t the same. One limits the other.
Correct
Because to change them to would be infringe on them.
Again, you are confusing government with rights. I thought you were a libertairian?
We didn’t establish rights. We established a government that wasn’t supposed to trample them.
Rights were there before mankind noticed them. They will be there when we stop ignoring them in the future, and stop calling every thing we want a right.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Are you serious right now? Literal much?
You don’t have the “right to break a law”. You have the right to liberty. If you act in a manor that violates the laws set forth by government due to your own free will, you will be punished.[/quote]
I agree you have no right to break the law , but yes you have the right to make others miserable if you like . Look at the moral majority in everybody’s business
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
These are laid out pretty clearly over and over again throughout history.
[/quote]
I have to go all Religious on you , God gave me my rights , no one else