'Bad Religion'

Ok, so give me the true interpretations of the three examples I gave above.

The instructions Christ gave at the end of the examples you gave may have only applied to the apostles. I don’t pretend to know. I still obey what He said, word for word. When I pray, I believe.

Edit: Or give me some reason to believe that He didn’t actually say those things.

And try to bear in mind that I’m not being condescending or claiming to know everything. I’m open to learning and I’m asking these things honestly, but understand that I can’t just accept other people’s interpretations at their word, no matter how scholarly they are. To do so would be folly, as there are hundreds of opinions and interpretations out there, and there is only one Truth.

Also bear in mind that nothing that could be discussed here can possibly shake my faith. I believed before I ever read the first word. I read to try to understand, but my lack of understanding has no effect on my faith.

As you have presented quite a level of scholarly understanding and insight KingKai, I am very interested to hear your take on the idea (which I think comes back to the origin of this thread) that elements of the Bible were borrowed or copied (or at least based off of) older Sumerian/Babylonian/Akkadian mythology. Mind you Im not in the camp that says if thats true then the Bible is false but I was having the discussion the other day and someone said “almost all Bible scholars would agree in the similarities in the stories/parables” and I was wondering your take on that.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:<<< there are hundreds of opinions and interpretations out there, and there is only one Truth. >>>[/quote]There are not “hundreds” of opinions and interpretations out there concerning the things we’ve been discussing.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
JayPierce, Mark 11:13-14, 19-24, and Matthew 21:18-22 are NOT parables.[/quote]
They’re not? I thought they were parallels to His spoken parable of the barren fig tree.

Were the parables only spoken?

Again, honest question.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:<<< there are hundreds of opinions and interpretations out there, and there is only one Truth. >>>[/quote]There are not “hundreds” of opinions and interpretations out there concerning the things we’ve been discussing.
[/quote]
I was referring to all interpretations and opinions relating to Scripture, not just the ones we’ve been discussing.

EDIT: But even if there are only two, they both need to be weighed and examined very carefully. The prophets are a very good reference source of material for such purposes.

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
he knows that you would never have the gall to oppose him.
[/quote]
:slight_smile:
Definitely not that[/quote]No indeed =]

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s because you posted something that could be construed as agreeing with me[/quote]
I would have thought that’s probably it actually - but not from Tirib. He wouldn’t underestimate my slipperyness like that
mega smile[/quote]No indeed again. =] I simply cannot believe that you have read and understood what our buddy JP is saying here and have agreed. Seriously. I’m not runnin the guy down for Pete’s sake, but he has defied simple logic for days now. You do not have the same emotional investment required to deceive yourself about this that he apparently does.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:<<< there are hundreds of opinions and interpretations out there, and there is only one Truth. >>>[/quote]There are not “hundreds” of opinions and interpretations out there concerning the things we’ve been discussing.
[/quote]
I was referring to all interpretations and opinions relating to Scripture, not just the ones we’ve been discussing.

EDIT: But even if there are only two, they both need to be weighed and examined very carefully. The prophets are a very good reference source of material for such purposes.[/quote]You sir are one of a kind, bless yer lil ol heart.(there, feel better now =] ) I don’t know man lol. You honestly do not seem stupid to me, but your are simply immune to clear thinking logic and evidence on these topics. At least for now.
There are 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,103 verses in the bible. OF COURSE there are hundreds of interpretations if you break it up by the several passages. You made it sound like there are huge numbers of conflicting interpretations of the SAME passage within orthodoxy which is simply untrue.

This sounds like wisdom, but it is actually incredibly insulting. TIrib and I have NOT asked you to accept our interpretations “at our word.” We have provided cogent, thoughtful ARGUMENTATION for everything we have stated. You have not actually engaged with our arguments or provided any counter-arguments; you have simply restated ad nauseum your belief that the gospels contain the UNINTERPRETED words of Jesus. YOU’RE the one asking people to accept YOUR opinion AT YOUR WORD.

Okay. We’ll start with this one; Serapion’s condemnation of the Gospel of Peter:

He simply states that the Gospel of Peter does not agree with orthodox belief. And as far as I can tell, Serapion was the only one who read it, other than the Docetists.

Another translation suggests that he rejected it based on what was said to him by the Docetists when he went to examine the document:

But I can’t seem to find the list of inconsistencies he mentions. I also don’t read Greek, but I was able to come across this, if you’d like to interpret for yourself:

Well, that didn’t work. It’s right here: Serapion of Antioch

You erroneously assumed I was talking about your interpretation. I meant no such insult.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:Well, that didn’t work. It’s right here: Serapion of Antioch You erroneously assumed I was talking about your interpretation. I meant no such insult.[/quote]I want to thank JP for providing me with a unique and educational experience in cosmic point missing. This is reaching the level of truly monumental achievement.

It was stated that I provided no counter-argument to any of the arguments directed at me. So to prove that my ‘interpretation’ actually has some thought and logic behind it, I’m providing some counter-arguments pertaining to subjects on which I’ve been “proven wrong”.

Serapion had no reason to believe that the Gospel according to Peter was fake, other than:

  1. He had never seen it before
  2. It didn’t agree with what he believed

So now, we are all expected to accept his interpretation and opinion with no supporting evidence.

EDIT: And neither one of you have answered my previous questions/requests. You, instead, choose to focus on some perceived insult from me.

I really would appreciate answers.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
As you have presented quite a level of scholarly understanding and insight KingKai, I am very interested to hear your take on the idea (which I think comes back to the origin of this thread) that elements of the Bible were borrowed or copied (or at least based off of) older Sumerian/Babylonian/Akkadian mythology. Mind you Im not in the camp that says if thats true then the Bible is false but I was having the discussion the other day and someone said “almost all Bible scholars would agree in the similarities in the stories/parables” and I was wondering your take on that.[/quote]

Fair question. I think there are two points worth discussing at the forefront.

  1. “Borrowing” is an inappropriate and misleading term. Not your fault; it’s a commonly used term. It just assumes too many things that cannot be demonstrated. I’ll explain why.

There have been essentially three phases or movements in the history of contextual studies over the last two centuries. When archeologists first started becoming interested in other ancient Near Eastern cultures, their primary focus was on the relationship of these cultures’ vestiges to their portrayal in the biblical accounts. At this stage, the goal of background studies was essentially the confirmation of the veracity of the biblical accounts. Eventually, as scholars became more interested in the history of these other ancient civilizations for their own sake, the balance shifted, and scholars, seeing the often striking parallels between the thought world of the biblical authors and the Babylonians, Sumerians, etc., began to chalk up these similarities to the “borrowing” of the biblical authors from their neighbors.

In the past several decades, however, both conservative and more liberal scholars have moved toward “comparative studies,” comparing biblical and other ancient texts with an eye toward both similarities AND differences between the accounts. Questions of borrowing have, at least by conscientious scholars, been left by the wayside.

Why? Two reasons - (1) the sparsity of evidence and (2) the influence of cultural studies. First of all, we really only have a handful of parallel texts from the ancient world, and they cover a wide geographic area with large temporal gaps. As a really good example, let’s take ancient covenantal documents. As far as our examples of such documents from the ancient Near East, we have the book of Deuteronomy (we’ll leave it undated for the sake of argument), some Hittite treaties (1400-1200 B.C.), and some Assyrian treaties (800-600 B.C.). Now, scholars debating the dating of Deuteronomy have often compared Deuteronomy to the Hittite and Assyrian treaties, with some scholars arguing that Deuteronomy resembles the Assyrian treaties (thus dating it between 800 and 600 B.C.), and others espousing its closer similarities to the Hittite treaties (thus indicating a very early date for Deuteronomy of 1400-1200 B.C.). Without going into all the finer technical points, I’ll point out that there is a larger methodological question that is too frequently ignored - are these the only two examples of treaties that have EVER existed, or are they the only two types we currently possess knowledge of? That’s an important question, because the fact is that Deuteronomy doesn’t actually fit EITHER of the two treaty types very well. The problem is that, despite knowing that a multitude of different cultures existed in that ancient Near East, we have examples from only two of them of a particular genre, and those examples are separated by several hundred years. It is entirely possible (if not likely, since it is UNLIKELY that only the Hittites and the Assyrians employed such treaties) that Deuteronomy represents another exemplar of which we simply have no knowledge. Given the fact that we still know VERY little about the ancient Near East, this isn’t an argument from silence; this is an absolutely necessary caution. The evidence is simply too sparse, and what pieces we have are too often separated by centuries for us to be able to connect them to one another through “borrowing.”

Cultural studies has also promoted awareness of “cognitive environments.” When we are talking about cognitive environments, we are talking about shared thought worlds, shared concepts, images, etc. The fact is that Israel shared a lot of things in common with her neighbors. There is no denying that. Other ancient Near Eastern cultures had prophets, kings, and sages; they had systems of worship at the center of which reigned sacrifice; and they held similar archetypes in common. THat’s about ALL we can really say about the ancient Near East with any certainty, as we have no way of drawing actual lines of dependence from one concrete TEXT to another TEXT. We cannot say, “Genesis is dependent upon the epic of Gilgamesh;” we can only say that Genesis and the Epic of Gilgamesh both dipped in the well of a shared cognitive environment. Any statements beyond that would be mere conjecture.

That’s why “borrowing” is a misleading term. We can state with confidence that Dante borrowed from other classical texts, including the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, when he composed his Inferno ; we cannot make any such claims for the relationship between the biblical texts and other ancient Near Eastern texts. We just don’t have anywhere NEAR the necessary evidence.

  1. The primary assumption behind such accusations of borrowing is that the traditions contained in the biblical texts are derived from (and are thus “younger” than) Israel’s neighbors. There are two problems with this position, though.

First of all, aside from the most BASIC plot lines, Genesis 1-11 (this is the section where the majority of the similarities to other ANE texts are congregated) is still remarkably unparalleled in the ancient Near East. Yes, you’ll find a handful of things in common - a reference to humanity’s fundamental nature as clay or dust, the separation of the waters above from the waters below, etc. For the most part, these similarities can be explained as universally apparent, phenomenal descriptions common in ancient communities, especially those sharing the same cognitive environment - bodies decay (i.e., return to the ground) upon the death; the sky leaks water when it rains, so there MUST be a storehouse of water above us. In reality, the only really substantial similarities between Genesis 1-11 and other ancient Near Eastern accounts are in the flood narrative - humanity angers the god(s); the god(s) flood the world to eradicate humanity; only a handful of human beings remain through the use of a vessel.

That brings me to my second point. I am not going to delve into the possibility that ALL of these creation and flood accounts necessarily reflect traditional knowledge about the same events that only the Bible happens to have correct. Instead, I just want to question the assumption that, just because the biblical texts were composed later, they cannot actually reflect EARLIER traditions than the texts they supposedly “borrowed” from.

One of my former professors wrote an essay comparing the lifespans of the antediluvian rulers on the Sumerian kings list with the lifespans of the pre-flood figures in Genesis 5. Noting the Sumerian predilection for the number 60, he examined the possibility of using a sexagesimal system of base 60 instead of base 10 to calculate the ages. What he discovered was, when the years indicated in the biblical account were converted to a sexagesimal system, they equalled the exact same total number of years as the reigns of the antediluvian kings in the Sumerian kings list. HOWEVER, the math did not work both ways; you could not start from the Sumerian account and reach the number indicated by the biblical account. In short, if such a phenomenon is genuine and more than a coincidence, it suggests that the biblical text could actually preserve the older account.

This is just food for thought. My point is that examples like this raise important questions about the legitimacy of assuming that the fact that Genesis was written down later than many ancient Near Eastern texts necessarily implies that the traditions Genesis contains are derived from or later than the traditions contained in the non-biblical texts.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It was stated that I provided no counter-argument to any of the arguments directed at me. So to prove that my ‘interpretation’ actually has some thought and logic behind it, I’m providing some counter-arguments pertaining to subjects on which I’ve been “proven wrong”.

Serapion had no reason to believe that the Gospel according to Peter was fake, other than:

  1. He had never seen it before
  2. It didn’t agree with what he believed

So now, we are all expected to accept his interpretation and opinion with no supporting evidence.[/quote]Because there were already other works known certainly to be authentic that it conflicted with. Forgetting Serapion for a minute. The gospel of Peter was written after the apostle was dead. How could he have written it? The gospel of Peter was not even what was under discussion in the immediately recent past anyway. Look. You are not a terrible or unlikable fella, but I can’t keep track of where you are.

Really great detailed response KingKai, thank you for taking the time. I do agree with your assessment and said something very similar to “we can only say that Genesis and the Epic of Gilgamesh both dipped in the well of a shared cognitive environment. Any statements beyond that would be mere conjecture.” when speaking to that person. There are definite paralleled stories and concepts in these texts and I think the assumption is that epics like Gilgamesh or Enuma Elish may predate the Bible that it somehow means the Bible was just based off those same pagan tales and rituals. I can see why people make that inference but don’t agree and you put it down very clearly the issue with that line of thought.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:The gospel of Peter was not even what was under discussion in the immediately recent past anyway.
[/quote]
I understand that. You haven’t responded at all to the questions I have posted, nor my request for clarification at the bottom of the last page.

Am I just supposed to keep going with the conversation all by myself?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Okay. We’ll start with this one; Serapion’s condemnation of the Gospel of Peter:

He simply states that the Gospel of Peter does not agree with orthodox belief. And as far as I can tell, Serapion was the only one who read it, other than the Docetists.
[/quote]

This is what you want to talk about now? Ok. You are going all over the place dude.

Here is the summary of your argument…

You are essentially depicting Serapion as yourself - a guy who reads a text, disagrees with something it says in contrast to his own personal beliefs, and rejects it out of hand.

But is that ALL Serapion was? NOPE!

Who was Serapion, JayPierce? Answer: the Bishop of Antioch.

When did he write? Answer: Late second century A.D. (190’s-200’s).

What was the bishop’s role when it came to doctrine? Answer: to represent orthodox belief. That means that someone didn’t just suddenly become bishop by accident; rather, bishops first had to demonstrate that they agreed WITH THE SHARED BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH AS REPRESENTED BY THE OTHER BISHOPS. In other words, what Serapion refers to as the “orthodox account of the Savior” is not his personal set of cherry picked beliefs like you hold; these are the same beliefs about Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection THAT THE REST OF THE CHURCH SHARED. THAT is precisely why he constantly refers to “we” - he is representing FAR more than his own opinion; his beliefs about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are the same beliefs shared by the other bishops.

What was the bishop’s role when it came to Scripture? Answer: to assemble, study, and preserve it. One of Serapion’s primary responsibilities as bishop would have been to familiarize himself with the texts traditionally considered authoritative, especially the documents that would make up the New Testament. Now, by the end of the first century A.D., the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were already recognized as THE authoritative sources about the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Mark, in fact, was chosen in part because it contained Peter’s very own teachings about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

NOW, here’s the key point - if a BISHOP (especially one of a prominent region like Antioch) did not know of a gospel, it wasn’t because it just HAPPENED to slip his notice. By the mid-second century, churches checked these kinds of things, making sure that every other church had access to the Scriptures. So if the BISHOP didn’t have the text and had no prior knowledge of its existence, it’s because it was NOT one of the books passed down from the first century.

That leaves only two possibilities. The book may have been written by Peter and then hidden for over a hundred years, only to be discovered by a group of heretics whose existence predated the discovery of the book (meaning that they did not derive their theology from the book, and it just so happened to agree with their beliefs). WHat an amazing coincidence!

OR, the more likely scenario - AS WAS THE COMMON PRACTICE AMONG HERETICS IN THE SECOND AND THIRD CENTURIES A.D., the Gospel of Peter was written using the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) as a template, with additions meant and slight alterations meant to support the heretics’ beliefs. THIS WAS A COMMON PRACTICE IN THE SECOND AND THIRD CENTURIES A.D. Heretics did this all the time.

And here’s the kicker - the book actually DOES contradict the other four gospels, the ones the ENTIRE CHURCH recognized as authoritative!

  1. The gospel represents Herod, not Pilate, as the one who orders Jesus’ execution
  2. Rather than saying, “my God, my God,” the gospel of Peter has Jesus saying, “my power, my power”

Moreover (and this is the finisher), the gospel of Peter makes a CLEAR allusion to the common MISINTERPRETATION of 1 Peter 3:19 that was prevalent in the Second Century A.D.! At the end of the gospel (in its most ridiculous part), the CROSS comes out of the grave after three men, and a voice from heaven asks the cross, “have you made proclamation to the ones who have fallen asleep?” This idea of proclamation being made to the dead (“the fallen asleep”) reflects the common belief in the Second century that 1 peter 3:19 is about Jesus’ proclaiming the gospel to the dead. HOWEVER, in all of the first century Christian texts, the dead are NEVER referred to as pneumata (“spirits”); ONLY angelic beings are referred to as pneumata. Moreover, the context clearly shows that 1 Peter 3:19 refers to sinful angelic spirits, NOT human beings who have “fallen asleep.” Intriguingly, the author of the gospel of Peter alludes to a passage from 1 Peter (an actual letter of the apostle Peter’s) to give his gospel more credence, but since he clearly misinterprets 1 Peter 3:19, the author shows that he is NOT the apostle Peter. GIven the widespread belief in the second century that 1 Peter 3:19 actually meant that Jesus witnessed to the dead, the gospel of Peter clearly came from the second century, not the first, and thus COULD NOT have been written by Peter.

Thank you for the straight answer, Kai. That is a far more substantive reason than I’ve seen.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
he knows that you would never have the gall to oppose him.
[/quote]
:slight_smile:
Definitely not that[/quote]No indeed =]

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s because you posted something that could be construed as agreeing with me[/quote]
I would have thought that’s probably it actually - but not from Tirib. He wouldn’t underestimate my slipperyness like that
mega smile[/quote]No indeed again. =] I simply cannot believe that you have read and understood what our buddy JP is saying here and have agreed. Seriously. I’m not runnin the guy down for Pete’s sake, but he has defied simple logic for days now. You do not have the same emotional investment required to deceive yourself about this that he apparently does.
[/quote]
No, I’ll be honest (and even direct, just this once). I think if you take a step back and look, what he’s saying makes sense. Not to you from your perspective maybe, but his thoughts on here seem natural from my understanding of his background. Was an atheist. Discovered he believes in God. Picks up a Bible. I myself don’t know how long ago that was, or what his journey has been like since then.

You guys are more or less beating up on him for reading the Bible incorrectly. You don’t feel that you’re being that way, but it seems he does. As for whether or not he’s reading it correctly - I should just leave that alone. I never really read it because I always understood that I would read it in a somewhat similar way that he has… And I agree with you - it wasn’t meant to be read that way. So naturally I see you’re guys’ points, but I’m still more toward his side

Also, I haven’t really agreed with him exactly. He noticed that

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s because you posted something that could be construed as agreeing with me[/quote]

…I also believe him when he says this, so if no one else will back him up - then I will. Even though I don’t fully agree with him

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Also bear in mind that nothing that could be discussed here can possibly shake my faith. I believed before I ever read the first word. I read to try to understand, but my lack of understanding has no effect on my faith.[/quote]

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
JayPierce, Mark 11:13-14, 19-24, and Matthew 21:18-22 are NOT parables.[/quote]
They’re not? I thought they were parallels to His spoken parable of the barren fig tree.

Were the parables only spoken?

Again, honest question.[/quote]

Yes, parables are stories that are told or written, not enacted. The stories in the gospels about Jesus are NOT parables.

The Lukan “parallel” you are referring to isn’t actually a genuine parallel at all - it comes at a fundamentally different place in Luke’s narrative and is simply a parable.

I answered your question - its your turn to answer one of mine. Which is the original account? Which story contains the lesson that you take away? OOOORRR, are BOTH legitimate interpretations of whatever Jesus said, and thus AUTHORITATIVE interpretations? Since there is actually NO way of determining which account is original, the only option is to assume that BOTH are legitimate interpretations because the gospel writers were inspired. But once you admit that, you are on a slippery slope - you cannot simply argue that Jesus’ words are authoritative without admitting that the gospel writers are authoritative, and since they would have gotten the majority of their material from the apostles, you have to admit that the apostles were ALSO authoritative. BUT THEN, one what grounds do you reject the apostles’ other works?

More importantly, what is it that you read in the epistles that you dislike? That’s what I really want to know. I could honestly say, skip what I wrote above. If you don’t see the logic yet, you aren’t paying enough attention, and I’m tired of reading the same naive statements over and over again and writing the same cogent arguments over and over.

What is it you dislike about the epistles? What turned you off in Paul? You were wrong about 1 Corinthians 7; what else is there? What did you read that made you naively say, “just Jesus for me, thanks?”