'Bad Religion'

[quote]Karado wrote:
Are you ultimitatly saying ALL Catholics are going to Hell or sumthin’?
Luther was no Saint either, and he’s responsible for ulmtimately fragmenting Christainty
into Thousands of Denominations, each one claiming to have a corner on the Truth.
Then again, What IS Truth?
I’m sure when Jesus, Paul Or John said something, they meant it in one way,
and not in thousands of different ways.
Confusing, ain’t it?[/quote]
No, absolutely not. Good people are His people, regardless.

It’s going to be a pretty horrible time for anybody fooled into taking the mark of the beast, though.

The Truth is that Satan has fooled the entire world, with few exceptions. Seeing as Christians comprise nearly… what, two thirds?.. of humanity, I don’t see anything exempting us by that qualification alone.

Edit: well, maybe not two thirds. 2.1 billion, anyway.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
My thoughts on the catholic church…

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…/./â?¦/â?¦./â?¦./.|â?¦â?¦| .\â?¦.\â?¦.\â?¦...
(.(â?¦.(â?¦.(â?¦./.)…)…(…(. \â?¦.)â?¦.)â?¦.).)
.\â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦./â?¦/â?¦.. …/â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦./
…\â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦… /â?¦â?¦…\â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦…â?¦/
â?¦.\â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦…(â?¦â?¦â?¦. …)â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦â?¦./[/quote]Actually this looks like your thoughts generally as of late.

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
as best I can ascertain from history you should avoid anyone that tells you their church is the “true” anything…[/quote]

Lol. So, because some aren’t true, all aren’t true? [/quote]

Yeah that is the point. The earth is compromised of many decomposed bodies of men murdered, tortured, and otherwise in the name of their “true” church and/or the victim of the ideology of someone else’s. Anyone that goes on about how they got it right and their church is the “true” one seems to be missing the point of God’s message to me.[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more. Christ told us to love each other, not torture/kill/terrorize.

Satan, on the other had, has been very busy whispering in people’s ears:

to Mike; “did you hear what Todd said about your god? You gonna take that?”
to Todd; “did you hear what Mike said about your god?”
And then the demons are all like “Fight! Fight! Fight!”

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
My thoughts on the catholic church…

Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦…Ã?¢?Ã?¦…/Ã??Ã?´Ã??Ã?¯/)Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦… (\Ã??Ã?¯\ Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦/Ã?¢?Ã?¦.//Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦.. Ã?¢?Ã?¦\\Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\ Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦../Ã?¢?Ã?¦.//Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦ Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\\Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\ Ã?¢?Ã?¦../Ã??Ã?´Ã??Ã?¯/Ã?¢?Ã?¦./Ã??Ã?´Ã??Ã?¯\Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦../Ã??Ã?¯ \Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\Ã??Ã?¯`
…/./Ã?¢?Ã?¦/Ã?¢?Ã?¦./Ã?¢?Ã?¦./.|Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦| .\Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\Ã?¢?Ã?¦...
(.(Ã?¢?Ã?¦.(Ã?¢?Ã?¦.(Ã?¢?Ã?¦./.)…)…(…(. \Ã?¢?Ã?¦.)Ã?¢?Ã?¦.)Ã?¢?Ã?¦.).)
.\Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦./Ã?¢?Ã?¦/Ã?¢?Ã?¦.. …/Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦./
…\Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦… /Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦…\Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦…Ã?¢?Ã?¦/
Ã?¢?Ã?¦.\Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦…(Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦. …)Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦Ã?¢?Ã?¦./[/quote]Actually this looks like your thoughts generally as of late.
[/quote]

There’s an embedded message in there. You have to decrypt. It’s public key, dude.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Do you understand the irony here? Do you understand that you are using every resource available to you to argue against the very thing you claim to believe?
[/quote]

I don’t see ANY irony here. What is it that you think I claim to believe? I am disagreeing with your spin on various issues, not with what I believe.

Again, I disagree with you entirely here. That is NOT what the Bible is.

[quote]
I am no prophet. I have no authority. I never claimed either of these things. I am simply trying to share what I understand.[/quote]

Jay, have you said, “I am a prophet?” No. Have you said, “I have authority?” No. But when you say, “I asked the Father and he showed me” and claim to preach the true “Word of Christ,” then you really only have two options available to you of convincing us. Either you show, through sound exegetical technique, genuine facility with the biblical languages, knowledge of the ancient Near Eastern and Greco-Roman worlds, and historical sensitivity, that your arguments are valid, or you simply claim that passages mean what YOU SAY GOD TOLD/SHOWED YOU THEY MEAN. You have no genuine knowledge of the biblical languages, the Greco-Roman world, the historical processes of doctrinal development, exegetical techniques, etc - the few allusions to research that you provide are either made up (like your claim that the majority of manuscripts support the reading “only begotten” rather than “one and only,” which actually reflect two TRANSLATIONS of the SAME WORD rather than different MANUSCRIPTS), or are stolen from generally untrustworthy sources (like you verbatim quotation of the Lawyer, Douglas J. DelTondo’s fallacious discussion on his website of SHL in Habakkuk 2). So instead, you rely on (1) claims that God SHOWED YOU what certain passages mean, and (2) appeals to common sense, by which I mean your frequent use of English translations that you don’t even really understand, but that have an ENGLISH word or two in common with your argument.

Like it or not, that IS an implicit claim to authority - if God illuminated your mind, such that YOU are capable of providing the TRUE meaning and referents of the passages you quote (despite the fact that the CONTEXT of the passages would NEVER lead thoughtful people to the same conclusions), then you must be the authority. So yes, you ARE claiming authority by claiming that God gave you meanings for those passages that careful, logical, and skillful exegesis would NEVER yield.

I am not trying to be hard on you. I am trying to say that if you are really functioning as a light upon a hill rather than another one of Satan’s deceivers, then you should be able to provide reasonable, consistent, cogent explanations and defenses of your unique claims. SInce you have consistently failed to do that, the legitimacy of your claims comes into question. That is why this is a question of authority - either you provide convincing, thoughtful evidence, or you appeal to the authority of your “experience” of illumination. The former wins converts; the latter wins only cultists.

I forgot to address this one. You post so much at one time that its hard to keep up with.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Your analogy here is faulty. First of all, it holds only in the BROADEST of senses - you claim that just as God allowed Job to be afflicted, God allowed the church to be afflicted. There’s a difference, however, in that the book of Job is very careful to keep God from getting his hands dirty. In Job, Satan does all the work; God only ALLOWS Job to suffer and be deceived. [/quote]
You understand it. I know you do. You just argued against what I posted by using the exact point I’m trying to make. Your indoctrination and intellectualism is getting in the way; that is your stumbling block.

I still love you and I’m still praying for you, Kai.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I forgot to address this one. You post so much at one time that its hard to keep up with.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Your analogy here is faulty. First of all, it holds only in the BROADEST of senses - you claim that just as God allowed Job to be afflicted, God allowed the church to be afflicted. There’s a difference, however, in that the book of Job is very careful to keep God from getting his hands dirty. In Job, Satan does all the work; God only ALLOWS Job to suffer and be deceived. [/quote]
You understand it. I know you do. You just argued against what I posted by using the exact point I’m trying to make. Your indoctrination and intellectualism is getting in the way; that is your stumbling block.

I still love you and I’m still praying for you, Kai. [/quote]

Haha now this is seriously becoming comical, Jay. Is this really what you’ve resorted to?

So, the quotation you have up there of mine is essentially what you are arguing, right? Well that’s good - it’s summary, and I put it there for a reason. Oooooooh wait… that’s right. You edited that quotation; you pulled it RIGHT out of its context, as if this simple quote was the entirety of my argument. What did I REALLY say?

Here you go. Try paying attention to the highlighted portion this time, the part you cut out. I italicized AND capitalized it for you, so you can’t miss it…

THAT is what I said. The quotation you excised was part of a larger, multi-point argument. You not only ignored the other two points (including how I showed that, in ALL the key particulars, the Job and Paul situations are incomparable); you misrepresented my actual argument in the paragraph you selectively cited.

My argument, as any reader can see in the above, is meant to call you out on yet ANOTHER one of your MANY inconsistencies (a charge which you still have been unable to answer). This is what you said on 7/05 at 10:14 am on page 9 of this thread…

Remember this? I’ve brought it up SEVERAL times. The point of the argument above is really simple - you brought up Job as a supposedly analogous situation to the experience of people throughout history of being deceived through the bible. You claimed that “The Father” allowed humanity to be deceived by the devil just like Job was tortured and deceived by the devil. The difference is, however, that you claim that “the Father” wrote the whole bible, including the vast majority of it which (in your view) deceives, so that makes “the Father” DIRECTLY responsible for the deception. In this case, “the Father” does not passively observe Satan’s work; based on your statements, “the Father” actually DOES Satan’s work. THUS, the two situations are NOT analogous.

What you did to that paragraph of mine was rude, especially since you don’t like people messing with your quotes. Remember when you told Chris on 7/16 at 7:48 am on page 11…

I’m at a loss. Can you really just not handle any argument longer than a sentence or two? That would explain your inability to consider context in your wild speculations about the meaning of individual verses of Scripture. Or are you just prepping for your cult leader status? Cult leaders have ALWAYS been good at selectively choosing and altering their opponents’ statements. If so, you are well on your way to become the next Joseph Smith.

‘Jaypierce’ I think it’s time for me and MAYBE ‘Kingkai’ to let you in on something here,
and that is, the events in Revelation likely took place in Nero’s time, and that
Nero was the “beast”, The Book of Revelation never mentions the term “AntiChrist” not even
once BTW, The Bible ALREADY specifically defines what an “AntiChrist” is elsewhere in Scripture.
The Mark Of The Beast is not some chip or Tattoo, it was more of an Allegiance thing with Nero,
I don’t think people realize what an Epic Christian Persecution it was during his reign.

So I believe You’re coming in from a false foundation, and how arrogant for us to even fathom John The
Revelator was writing about some 21st Century scenario from Patmos, I was mistaken earlier, and learned that Revelation was written much EARLIER, at around 65 AD duing Nero’s reign, rather than 95 AD, during the reign of Domitian…This concept alone changes EVERYTHING, I mean EV-ER-Y-THING, regarding the difference in
reference to whether the Events in Revelation is still in the Future, or already happened in the past.

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Jaypierce’ I think it’s time for me and MAYBE ‘Kingkai’ to let you in on something here,
and that is, the events in Revelation likely took place in Nero’s time, and that
Nero was the “beast”, The Book of Revelation never mentions the term “AntiChrist” not even
once BTW, The Bible ALREADY specifically defines what an “AntiChrist” is elsewhere in Scripture.
The Mark Of The Beast is not some chip or Tattoo, it was more of an Allegiance thing with Nero,
I don’t think people realize what an Epic Christian Persecution it was during his reign.

So I believe You’re coming in from a false foundation, and how arrogant for us to even fathom John The
Revelator was writing about some 21st Century scenario from Patmos, I was mistaken earlier, and learned that Revelation was written much EARLIER, at around 65 AD duing Nero’s reign, rather than 95 AD, during the reign of Domitian…This concept alone changes EVERYTHING, I mean EV-ER-Y-THING, regarding the difference in
reference to whether the Events in Revelation is still in the Future, or already happened in the past.
[/quote]
OK. I’ll entertain this theory. So, how does the numerology and symbology play into Nero being THE Antichrist?

I fully understand that there is no singular person who is the Antichrist. Everyone who is opposed to the teachings of Christ is Antichrist.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

BUT YOU SAID THAT “THE FATHER” WROTE THE WHOLE BIBLE THROUGH HANDS OF MEN, WHICH MEANS THAT IF “THE FATHER” IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHOR OF THE WHOLE BIBLE, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE BIBLE DECEIVES (I.E., WAS PENNED LARGELY BY THE HANDS OF THE DECEIVED, PROCLAIMS FALSEHOODS, AND THUS DECEIVES), THEN “THE FATHER” IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DECEPTION. HE, IN FACT, ORCHESTRATED THE WHOLE (THING). SO EITHER “THE FATHER” DIDN’T WRITE THE WHOLE BIBLE AND SATAN DID, OR “THE FATHER” WROTE THE WHOLE BIBLE AND ACTIVELY DECEIVED EVERYONE.
[/quote]
The Father allowed us to be deceived, and men authored the testimony of the works of whom they thought to be God. But he also gave us the Truth in the words of the Prophets.

I don’t remember saying that Job and Paul were comparable. I’ll go back and look.

[quote]My argument, as any reader can see in the above, is meant to call you out on yet ANOTHER one of your MANY inconsistencies (a charge which you still have been unable to answer). This is what you said on 7/05 at 10:14 am on page 9 of this thread…

Remember this? I’ve brought it up SEVERAL times. The point of the argument above is really simple - you brought up Job as a supposedly analogous situation to the experience of people throughout history of being deceived through the bible. You claimed that “The Father” allowed humanity to be deceived by the devil just like Job was tortured and deceived by the devil. The difference is, however, that you claim that “the Father” wrote the whole bible, including the vast majority of it which (in your view) deceives, so that makes “the Father” DIRECTLY responsible for the deception. In this case, “the Father” does not passively observe Satan’s work; based on your statements, “the Father” actually DOES Satan’s work. THUS, the two situations are NOT analogous. [/quote]
You have missed the entire point. The Father absolutely does not do Satan’s work. The Father warned us about Satan’s work through the Prophets, and revealed Himself to us through the teachings of Christ.

[quote]What you did to that paragraph of mine was rude, especially since you don’t like people messing with your quotes. Remember when you told Chris on 7/16 at 7:48 am on page 11…

I’m at a loss. Can you really just not handle any argument longer than a sentence or two? That would explain your inability to consider context in your wild speculations about the meaning of individual verses of Scripture. Or are you just prepping for your cult leader status? Cult leaders have ALWAYS been good at selectively choosing and altering their opponents’ statements. If so, you are well on your way to become the next Joseph Smith.[/quote]
I try to boil your walls of text down to what’s relevant. If you were to understand what I’m trying to say, you’d understand that the rest of your post was unnecessary.

I did not add any words to your post to try and infer some idea other than what you were trying to communicate.

Cult leader? You give your money to listen to someone preach the teachings of someone who contradicted Christ. You believe them when they tell you that they use that money for God’s purposes. You believe that the man you call ‘father’ knows what THE Father wants you to do, and that’s put money in the plate, even though Christ told you to give to the poor. And you want to point fingers about cult leaders?!?!

I ask for nothing. I will continue to ask for nothing. It is our job to spread the good news, no matter who opposes it, and expect nothing in return. How do I know this is right? Because Christ said it.

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Jaypierce’ I think it’s time for me and MAYBE ‘Kingkai’ to let you in on something here,
and that is, the events in Revelation likely took place in Nero’s time, and that
Nero was the “beast”, The Book of Revelation never mentions the term “AntiChrist” not even
once BTW, The Bible ALREADY specifically defines what an “AntiChrist” is elsewhere in Scripture.
The Mark Of The Beast is not some chip or Tattoo, it was more of an Allegiance thing with Nero,
I don’t think people realize what an Epic Christian Persecution it was during his reign.

So I believe You’re coming in from a false foundation, and how arrogant for us to even fathom John The
Revelator was writing about some 21st Century scenario from Patmos, I was mistaken earlier, and learned that Revelation was written much EARLIER, at around 65 AD duing Nero’s reign, rather than 95 AD, during the reign of Domitian…This concept alone changes EVERYTHING, I mean EV-ER-Y-THING, regarding the difference in
reference to whether the Events in Revelation is still in the Future, or already happened in the past.
[/quote]

I agree, Karado. The time of Domitian is the most likely time, which DOES put a different spin on everything going on in Revelation. Since Jay can’t follow long arguments, I’ll just make a couple of statements - Old Testament prophetic imagery (especially that of Daniel) is reworked in Revelation to describe both a once AND future conflict, but the future conflict is purposely kept nebulous. The central beast figure is modeled after BOTH Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid ruler who persecuted the Jews in the second century, AND the Roman Emperor Nero, the worst persecutor of Christians up until that time; Rome, not the Roman Catholic church, is Babylon.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Jaypierce’ I think it’s time for me and MAYBE ‘Kingkai’ to let you in on something here,
and that is, the events in Revelation likely took place in Nero’s time, and that
Nero was the “beast”, The Book of Revelation never mentions the term “AntiChrist” not even
once BTW, The Bible ALREADY specifically defines what an “AntiChrist” is elsewhere in Scripture.
The Mark Of The Beast is not some chip or Tattoo, it was more of an Allegiance thing with Nero,
I don’t think people realize what an Epic Christian Persecution it was during his reign.

So I believe You’re coming in from a false foundation, and how arrogant for us to even fathom John The
Revelator was writing about some 21st Century scenario from Patmos, I was mistaken earlier, and learned that Revelation was written much EARLIER, at around 65 AD duing Nero’s reign, rather than 95 AD, during the reign of Domitian…This concept alone changes EVERYTHING, I mean EV-ER-Y-THING, regarding the difference in
reference to whether the Events in Revelation is still in the Future, or already happened in the past.
[/quote]
OK. I’ll entertain this theory. So, how does the numerology and symbology play into Nero being THE Antichrist?

I fully understand that there is no singular person who is the Antichrist. Everyone who is opposed to the teachings of Christ is Antichrist.[/quote]

Oh good, you’re going to “entertain the idea” countless scholars who actually KNOW something about ancient Hebrew and Greek propose. How very open-minded of you haha.

Greeks and Jews practiced something called gematria - since EVERY Hebrew and Greek letter had a certain numerical equivalent (not just a handful of letters, as in the Latin you quoted), people’s names would often be converted into their numerical equivalent. Archeologists have found ancient graffiti with such statements as “I’m in love with the girl whose number is 545.” In any case, when Nero’s name is transliterated into Hebrew (a reasonable move, since John uses the MT rather than the LXX for all of his allusions, images, etc.), it equals 666. There is an alternative reading with fewer manuscripts supporting it, but it is still a possibility. It reads 616, which ALSO refers to Nero if the moveable nun/nu is taken off the end of Nero. Both readings clearly support “Nero Caesar” as the actual referent of the beast.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]My argument, as any reader can see in the above, is meant to call you out on yet ANOTHER one of your MANY inconsistencies (a charge which you still have been unable to answer). This is what you said on 7/05 at 10:14 am on page 9 of this thread…

Remember this? I’ve brought it up SEVERAL times. The point of the argument above is really simple - you brought up Job as a supposedly analogous situation to the experience of people throughout history of being deceived through the bible. You claimed that “The Father” allowed humanity to be deceived by the devil just like Job was tortured and deceived by the devil. The difference is, however, that you claim that “the Father” wrote the whole bible, including the vast majority of it which (in your view) deceives, so that makes “the Father” DIRECTLY responsible for the deception. In this case, “the Father” does not passively observe Satan’s work; based on your statements, “the Father” actually DOES Satan’s work. THUS, the two situations are NOT analogous. [/quote]
You have missed the entire point. The Father absolutely does not do Satan’s work. The Father warned us about Satan’s work through the Prophets, and revealed Himself to us through the teachings of Christ.
[/quote]

Okay, I’m asking for one solid answer, dude. Do you then admit that you have changed your mind since you said on 7/05 at 10:14 am on page 9 of this thread that, “The Father himself wrote the entire Bible through the hands of men?” It’s very clear that you realized you misspoke. Frankly, I understand what your point is NOW, but I don’t care what your point is NOW; MY POINT is that the statements you made earlier in this discussion are inconsistent with the claims you are NOW making.

Simple as that. You said “the Father” wrote the entire Bible; you said large portions of the Bible deceive; therefore, by implication, “the Father” deceives. So OBVIOUSLY, you either have to take back what you said before about “the Father” writing the entire Bible, or else admit that “the Father” deceives. This is simple logic.

[quote]JayPierce said:

[quote]What you did to that paragraph of mine was rude, especially since you don’t like people messing with your quotes. Remember when you told Chris on 7/16 at 7:48 am on page 11…

I’m at a loss. Can you really just not handle any argument longer than a sentence or two? That would explain your inability to consider context in your wild speculations about the meaning of individual verses of Scripture. Or are you just prepping for your cult leader status? Cult leaders have ALWAYS been good at selectively choosing and altering their opponents’ statements. If so, you are well on your way to become the next Joseph Smith.[/quote]

I try to boil your walls of text down to what’s relevant. If you were to understand what I’m trying to say, you’d understand that the rest of your post was unnecessary.

I did not add any words to your post to try and infer some idea other than what you were trying to communicate.
[/quote]

False - you ignored the second half of my argument, probably because (if you could understand it) you didn’t like being called out. You only took the summary statement that seemed to comport with your claims. That’s not boiling my statements down to what’s relevant; that’s taking my statements out of their context, just like you do with every single passage of Scripture you quote.

And I already understand what you are trying to say. I know you think your ideas are complex, Jay; I know you do. But I grew up in the church; I’ve sat through hundreds of sermons and bible studies. I’ve heard more insightful points and complex ideas spouted by teenagers in a youth group than you have said here.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINTS. What you don’t get is that you are too unsystematic in your thinking. There are holes and gaps ALL throughout your arguments. The point of MY arguments is that your claims lack the necessary foundation to remotely convince anyone, especially people more skilled and knowledgeable than you. That’s not an insult; that’s a fact, as is the fact that your only interesting points are the ones made by heretics nearly 2000 years ago.

[quote]
Cult leader? You give your money to listen to someone preach the teachings of someone who contradicted Christ. You believe them when they tell you that they use that money for God’s purposes. You believe that the man you call ‘father’ knows what THE Father wants you to do, and that’s put money in the plate, even though Christ told you to give to the poor. And you want to point fingers about cult leaders?!?!

I ask for nothing. I will continue to ask for nothing. It is our job to spread the good news, no matter who opposes it, and expect nothing in return. How do I know this is right? Because Christ said it.[/quote]

Lol seriously, man, you need to go to church. You really do. You wouldn’t say such embarrassingly inaccurate things if you were under the oversight of a solid pastor and heard the word preached properly each week.

THe man I call Father? I don’t call the pope Father - I’m not a Catholic. If you even just paid attention to other forums where you could maybe learn something about history and theology (like the Catholic Q & A), you would know that I am not a Catholic.

And if you went to church, you would know that the purpose of giving money to your local church is (1) to support the ministers and their ministry (Matt. 10:9-10) and (2) to provide funds to help the poor and destitute in the community. Believe it or not, the Catholic church is one of the most generous institutions in the world, but even the smallest local churches I know collect money to give the poor. My church certainly does. I am the pastoral assistant, and I know for a fact that my pastor gets NO paycheck from our small church because, as he has said, “that wouldn’t leave any money for the poor.” So my pastor works another full time job in addition to pastoring in order to support his family.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
‘Jaypierce’ I think it’s time for me and MAYBE ‘Kingkai’ to let you in on something here,
and that is, the events in Revelation likely took place in Nero’s time, and that
Nero was the “beast”, The Book of Revelation never mentions the term “AntiChrist” not even
once BTW, The Bible ALREADY specifically defines what an “AntiChrist” is elsewhere in Scripture.
The Mark Of The Beast is not some chip or Tattoo, it was more of an Allegiance thing with Nero,
I don’t think people realize what an Epic Christian Persecution it was during his reign.

So I believe You’re coming in from a false foundation, and how arrogant for us to even fathom John The
Revelator was writing about some 21st Century scenario from Patmos, I was mistaken earlier, and learned that Revelation was written much EARLIER, at around 65 AD duing Nero’s reign, rather than 95 AD, during the reign of Domitian…This concept alone changes EVERYTHING, I mean EV-ER-Y-THING, regarding the difference in
reference to whether the Events in Revelation is still in the Future, or already happened in the past.
[/quote]

I agree, Karado. The time of Domitian is the most likely time, which DOES put a different spin on everything going on in Revelation. Since Jay can’t follow long arguments, I’ll just make a couple of statements - Old Testament prophetic imagery (especially that of Daniel) is reworked in Revelation to describe both a once AND future conflict, but the future conflict is purposely kept nebulous. The central beast figure is modeled after BOTH Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid ruler who persecuted the Jews in the second century, AND the Roman Emperor Nero, the worst persecutor of Christians up until that time; Rome, not the Roman Catholic church, is Babylon. [/quote]
The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, and had a golden cup in her hand full of abominations. That’s the Vatican, for sure.

The beast she rides on has seven horns, representing the seven hills. That’s Rome.

“And the woman which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth”. Again, that’s the Vatican. No one has commanded the kings of the world more than the pope.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Are you ultimiatly saying ALL Catholics are going to Hell or sumthin’?
Luther was no Saint either, and he’s responsible for fragmenting Christainty
into Thousands of Denominations, each one claiming to have a corner on the Truth.
Then again, What IS Truth?
I’m sure when Jesus, Paul Or John said something, they meant it in one way,
and not in thousands of different ways.
Confusing, ain’t it?[/quote]

"I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ, has not the habit of faith, but holds that which is of faith otherwise than by faith. Even so, it is evident that a man whose mind holds a conclusion without knowing how it is proved, has not scientific knowledge, but merely an opinion about it. Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will." - Saint Thomas Aquinas, STh IIa-IIae Q5 A3

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
as best I can ascertain from history you should avoid anyone that tells you their church is the “true” anything…[/quote]

Lol. So, because some aren’t true, all aren’t true? [/quote]

Yeah that is the point. The earth is compromised of many decomposed bodies of men murdered, tortured, and otherwise in the name of their “true” church and/or the victim of the ideology of someone else’s. Anyone that goes on about how they got it right and their church is the “true” one seems to be missing the point of God’s message to me.[/quote]

What is God’s message?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
The Truth is that Satan has fooled the entire world, with few exceptions.[/quote]

What?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I couldn’t agree more. Christ told us to love each other, not torture/kill/terrorize.

Satan, on the other had, has been very busy whispering in people’s ears:

to Mike; “did you hear what Todd said about your god? You gonna take that?”
to Todd; “did you hear what Mike said about your god?”
And then the demons are all like “Fight! Fight! Fight!”[/quote]

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches to torture kill and terrorize?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I still love you…Kai. [/quote]

Great. now it just got weird.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< Lol seriously, man, you need to go to church. You really do. You wouldn’t say such embarrassingly inaccurate things if you were under the oversight of a solid pastor and heard the word preached properly each week. >>>[/quote] Yes sir. This is most eminently biblical and prevents just such messes as we have here been witnessing for several days now. [quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< I’m not a Catholic. If you even just paid attention to other forums where you could maybe learn something about history and theology (like the Catholic Q & A), you would know that I am not a Catholic. >>>[/quote]Nor am I… at all. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]JayPierce wrote:I still love you…Kai. [/quote]Great. now it just got weird.[/quote]Christopher my dear lad. It’s been weird since like last week sometime.