'Bad Religion'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
241

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
And I don’t worship YOUR God. I worship the only true God, creator of heaven and earth, who revealed himself to Moses as Yahweh, chose the people of Israel has his own treasured possession, and has invited Gentiles like me to become his own children, so that we, along with Jesus, have the right to call him Father.[/quote]

This is what I’m trying to tell you. The Father is the true God. Go back to where Jacob made the covenant. Could you wrestle with God and not lose? Would God not know your name? Would God refuse to tell you who He is? Would He reward you for deception?

Jacob said “for I have seen God face to face”

The apostle John said “no one has ever seen God.”

I don’t know how else to put it.[/quote]

Look JayPierce, I get the fact that you didn’t grow up in the church, so some of your exegetical choices make sense to me. You don’t feel the same inclination that Christians in general do to harmonize seeming inconsistencies in the biblical accounts. On the one hand, that could theoretically lead you to better exegesis. On the other hand (as is evident in your case), it has made you a LESS thoughtful exegete. You encounter a possible inconsistency and, rather than seeing if maybe YOU are missing something, you just chalk it up to an irrevocable problem and cut that part of the bible out.

Look at your assumptions, Jay! Was Jacob really wrestling with God, or with an angelic being who represented God? This is how the Israelites and the Jews of the Second Temple period explained this sorts of encounters. They believed that Jacob did not actually struggle physically with God himself, but with an angelic mediator bearing God’s authority. And you know what? This is COMMON in the Old Testament. It’s there in Exodus 23:20-22 - the angel who bears the divine name speaks with divine authority. You can see this interpretation in Acts 7, where Stephen explains that (1) Moses spoke with an ANGEL in the burning bush (Acts 7:30), and (2) Moses spoke with an ANGEL on Mount Sinai (Acts 7:38). These angels bore the divine authority; they served as mediators between God and humanity, because God does not possess a physical body. The same thing is happening here in the Jacob story.

And who said God rewarded him for deception? Jacob held on tenaciously for a blessing (Gen. 32:25-28); he showed the kind of perseverance that pleases God. And who said the angel doesn’t know his name? Can God not ask questions despite knowing the answer? Isn’t that what he did in Genesis 3:9 when he asked adam, “where are you?”

242

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
You simply made some unproven, unjustified assertion that God can use all these different texts.
[/quote]

So you believe that God can create the world as we know it, but you don’t believe that he can use the written word of several men, combined in one book, to warn us of how the Devil has deceived the world?

You are a snake, sir.[/quote]

Never said, “sir.” [/quote]
Never said what? That my assertion that God used all those different texts was unjustified?[/quote]

Sorry - I never said THAT (i.e., that God can create the world as we know it, but that he CAN’T use the written word…)

Edit: Also, if you had just read the rest of the post, you would have been able to figure out what I meant (at least if you paid attention). The fact that you once again cut out ALL the other stuff I said in that last post - including ANOTHER SET OF KEY QUESTIONS THAT I ASKED YOU - and only focused on the first three words makes me wonder if you are just rude, simply not paying attention, or just don’t have answers.

243

Come on, Kai.

“Your name will no longer be Jacob. It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and men and have prevailed”. Jacob’s struggles with men have been, at least partially, won through deception.

“you have struggled with God”, but yet when Jacob asks “Please tell me your name”, he deflects the question?

You have to see it. There’s no way you don’t see it!

244

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

If that’s the case, “sir,” then how does your god evade the charge of being the one to mislead people? He let his church (that includes the apostles even BEFORE Paul) mistakenly think that ALL the Old Testament texts were COMPLETELY INSPIRED (not only in little parts of a handful of them); he let Paul come in and trick people and didn’t even have the DECENCY to tell them what his rather stupid sign of “blinding” Paul meant; worse, he actually HEALED Paul of the sign. Man, if he had just left Paul blind, we wouldn’t be in the mess YOU seem to think we are in.[/quote]
The answer to most of this is contained in the Book of Job. I never said The Father didn’t have a hand in it, I just said that Satan sat in the temple and tabernacle of Israel and proclaimed himself God.

Satan is the Deceiver, and he’s done an astoundingly proficient job.

245

You gain your victory over Satan by trusting the Word of Christ, which leads you to the truth of the deception.

I’m not giving up on you, Kai. You may give up and stop responding to me, but I’m not giving up on you.

246

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Come on, Kai.

“Your name will no longer be Jacob. It will be Israel because you have struggled with God and men and have prevailed”. Jacob’s struggles with men have been, at least partially, won through deception.

“you have struggled with God”, but yet when Jacob asks “Please tell me your name”, he deflects the question?

You have to see it. There’s no way you don’t see it![/quote]

The point I am trying to make to you, Jay-who-continues-to-deflect-my-questions, is that people have offered explanations for these things for thousands of years. You act like you’re the first person to see some potential inconsistencies in the biblical text, and you certainly aren’t, but where others were able to find and explain these issues, you just chalk it up to a problem. There’s no way YOU don’t see it!

You want me to continue focusing on this ONE issue? Fine.

Jacob’s struggles with Esau were won through deception, but Jacob received his retribution for his deception against his brother - he was deceived by Laban into working seven years before he could marry Rachel, and on his wedding night, he was tricked by Laban into marrying Leah, the older (and less attractive) sister! Then Laban extorted ANOTHER seven years of labor out of Jacob just to marry the woman (Rachel) that he had worked the first seven years for! Laban even tried to swindle Jacob out of the appropriate wages for Jacob’s continued work (Gen. 30:25-43), but by the grace of God, Laban’s plans backfired. The fact is that Jacob was MORE than paid back for his sins against Esau. His entire life was not characterized by the deception of his youth. So therefore, you have no basis for arguing that Jacob was rewarded BECAUSE OF his deceptions.

And this statement -

… I am not even sure what you’re point is. However, I’ll point out (Despite how much you hate arguments about “literary style”) that in Exodus, Yahweh explicitly says that he did NOT reveal himself by the name Yahweh to the patriarchs (Ex. 6:3). Someone reading Genesis would have been aware of this fact from Ex. 6:3, and so it would come as no surprise that this being does not reveal his name.

247

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

If that’s the case, “sir,” then how does your god evade the charge of being the one to mislead people? He let his church (that includes the apostles even BEFORE Paul) mistakenly think that ALL the Old Testament texts were COMPLETELY INSPIRED (not only in little parts of a handful of them); he let Paul come in and trick people and didn’t even have the DECENCY to tell them what his rather stupid sign of “blinding” Paul meant; worse, he actually HEALED Paul of the sign. Man, if he had just left Paul blind, we wouldn’t be in the mess YOU seem to think we are in.[/quote]
The answer to most of this is contained in the Book of Job. I never said The Father didn’t have a hand in it, I just said that Satan sat in the temple and tabernacle of Israel and proclaimed himself God.

Satan is the Deceiver, and he’s done an astoundingly proficient job.[/quote]

And since rational conversation has ended, goodnight. What happened to you? You were rational the other day? You actually were able to listen to an argument about the supposed-gospel of Peter. Now? You simply throw out claims without providing solid justification; you ignore arguments that actually conflict with your points; you deflect and deflect and deflect. Why?

248

He said he revealed himself as God Almighty, but not his name Yahweh. He also never refers to himself as The Father.

The apostle John said that “The One and Only Son- the One who is at the Father’s side- He has revealed Him”. One might argue that it was Jesus that Jacob wrestled, but most texts actually read “the only begotten Son, who is at the Father’s side”, which denotes that The Father was revealed by Christ after He was born on Earth.

249

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

If that’s the case, “sir,” then how does your god evade the charge of being the one to mislead people? He let his church (that includes the apostles even BEFORE Paul) mistakenly think that ALL the Old Testament texts were COMPLETELY INSPIRED (not only in little parts of a handful of them); he let Paul come in and trick people and didn’t even have the DECENCY to tell them what his rather stupid sign of “blinding” Paul meant; worse, he actually HEALED Paul of the sign. Man, if he had just left Paul blind, we wouldn’t be in the mess YOU seem to think we are in.[/quote]
The answer to most of this is contained in the Book of Job. I never said The Father didn’t have a hand in it, I just said that Satan sat in the temple and tabernacle of Israel and proclaimed himself God.

Satan is the Deceiver, and he’s done an astoundingly proficient job.[/quote]

And since rational conversation has ended, goodnight. What happened to you? You were rational the other day? You actually were able to listen to an argument about the supposed-gospel of Peter. Now? You simply throw out claims without providing solid justification; you ignore arguments that actually conflict with your points; you deflect and deflect and deflect. Why? [/quote]
In the Book of Job, Satan accused Job of only being faithful because God rewarded him and protected him. Satan challenges God to let him test Job. Satan uses God-like power to kill Job’s family and bring him to financial ruin, and then afflicts Job himself, all the while letting Job think it was God who was afflicting him, in an effort to get Job to profane God’s name.

There are even hints in God’s response to Job (41:3)“Will he beg you for mercy or speak softly to you? Will he make a covenant with you so that you can take him as a slave forever?” and (41:34)“He is king over all the sons of pride”

250

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Paul started the church
[/quote]

Jesus started the Church.

251

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Pray to The Father for understanding, and then think about these things:
[/quote]

I did, he’s been telling me for the past 22 years that the true Church is the Church founded by Jesus on the Apostles and Jesus as the cornerstone. Also known as the Catholic Church.

252

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< Paul’s letters actually likely pre-date ALL the gospels, including Mark. More on that point later[/quote]Well yes, I said Mark was likely the earliest and hence the Galatian and Thessalonian epistles predate all the gospels. Unless you’re saying that all the Pauline epistles predate all the gospels?
[/quote]

Sorry, yes that was what I meant to say. It is entirely possible that nearly all of the Pauline letters (especially the major ones - Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, etc.) were written before Mark. [/quote]That ain’t the way I larned it Johnny (said Bugs Bunny to the tortoise), but I larned it a million years ago and maybe didn’t larn it as good as you larned it.
[/quote]
It really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who wrote what or when. The Father Himself wrote the entire Bible through the hands of men. It is one big riddle. Not to trivialize it, mind you. This is the most extensive and most important riddle ever in the history of man.

It is one monumental test to see if you can overcome the plans of Satan himself by seeing through The Deception. Please let go of all the arguments you’ve been taught to make when someone questions Scripture, even for just a little while.

Once the Truth of The Father overtakes you, it all becomes clear. Pray to The Father (not the God of the OT), and consider what I’ve posted. I will give you some time, because it may not all come at once, and then I will quote a piece of Scripture that is the most uplifting thing you’ve ever read if you can see through the biggest Lie ever told.

I’m praying for you[/quote]

You sound like a Moslem. Except your not bad ass enough to pray 5 times a day.

253

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s people like you, who have rejected the teachings of the church [the body of Christ][/quote]

That’s called disobedience. A sin if I remember.

254

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Pray to The Father for understanding, and then think about these things:
[/quote]

I did, he’s been telling me for the past 22 years that the true Church is the Church founded by Jesus on the Apostles and Jesus as the cornerstone. Also known as the Catholic Church.[/quote]Way to hijack the thread Christopher. Here we’ve been on topic for days with JP’s total inability to stay on topic and here you go off topic about the Catholic(big C) church again.

255

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s people like you, who have rejected the teachings of the church [the body of Christ][/quote]

That’s called disobedience. A sin if I remember.[/quote]
Keep your words out of my quotes. The Catholic church is not the body of Christ, it is the body of the Beast.

Christ would not start a church that prays to men, saints or not. Christ would not start a church that worships idols, especially an image of the instrument of His death. Those two offenses are not only sins, they are violations of the Commandments. This new brood of vipers commits all the same atrocities of that old brood.

The Body of Christ are those who believe His words above all others, and strive to reach the Father through Him.

256

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s people like you, who have rejected the teachings of the church [the body of Christ][/quote]

That’s called disobedience. A sin if I remember.[/quote]
Keep your words out of my quotes. The Catholic church is not the body of Christ, it is the body of the Beast.

Christ would not start a church that prays to men, saints or not. Christ would not start a church that worships idols, especially an image of the instrument of His death. Those two offenses are not only sins, they are violations of the Commandments. This new brood of vipers commits all the same atrocities of that old brood.

The Body of Christ are those who believe His words above all others, and strive to reach the Father through Him.[/quote]

I enjoy reading your posts. If you were not an anomaly, there would be more Christians.

You have my respect (not that such means anything).

257

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It’s people like you, who have rejected the teachings of the church [the body of Christ][/quote]

That’s called disobedience. A sin if I remember.[/quote]
Keep your words out of my quotes. The Catholic church is not the body of Christ, it is the body of the Beast.

Christ would not start a church that prays to men, saints or not. Christ would not start a church that worships idols, especially an image of the instrument of His death. Those two offenses are not only sins, they are violations of the Commandments. This new brood of vipers commits all the same atrocities of that old brood.

The Body of Christ are those who believe His words above all others, and strive to reach the Father through Him.[/quote]

I enjoy reading your posts. If you were not an anomaly, there would be more Christians.

You have my respect (not that such means anything).
[/quote]
It does. Thank you.

258

JP n HH sittin in a tree… ?

259

Not sure if I’m understanding

The prophets were the deceivers, or the deceived?

All of them, or only some of them?

260

[quote]squating_bear wrote:
Not sure if I’m understanding

The prophets were the deceivers, or the deceived?

All of them, or only some of them?[/quote]
There were false ones (deceived), false ones (deceivers) and then there were those who spoke the Truth of the Father. Christ’s words are the key to knowing who’s who and what’s what.