'Bad Religion'

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< Paul’s letters actually likely pre-date ALL the gospels, including Mark. More on that point later[/quote]Well yes, I said Mark was likely the earliest and hence the Galatian and Thessalonian epistles predate all the gospels. Unless you’re saying that all the Pauline epistles predate all the gospels?
[/quote]

Sorry, yes that was what I meant to say. It is entirely possible that nearly all of the Pauline letters (especially the major ones - Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, etc.) were written before Mark.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< Paul’s letters actually likely pre-date ALL the gospels, including Mark. More on that point later[/quote]Well yes, I said Mark was likely the earliest and hence the Galatian and Thessalonian epistles predate all the gospels. Unless you’re saying that all the Pauline epistles predate all the gospels?
[/quote]

Sorry, yes that was what I meant to say. It is entirely possible that nearly all of the Pauline letters (especially the major ones - Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, etc.) were written before Mark. [/quote]That ain’t the way I larned it Johnny (said Bugs Bunny to the tortoise), but I larned it a million years ago and maybe didn’t larn it as good as you larned it.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Do you believe Jesus teaching is consistent with the old testament(I ask this because you criticize Paul when he is just quoting Joel where it says that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.)

My previous post about Luke, Acts and Jesus sayings that are recorded in Paul’s letters and that some of Paul’s letters were composed before the Gospels were written as we know them.

When and how did you get to know Jesus? From what movement or where did you get the idea that Paul’s teaching/letters do not align with the Gospels(Luke and Acts too if you accept them).(Anti-Pauline sentiments seem to be popular on youtube and some forums.)[/quote]
Focus on my last few posts. I started off only criticizing Paul, but then I realized that Paul is only a small player. He is the worthless shepherd of Hezekiah, but its not entirely his fault (maybe not his fault at all). He was deceived by Satan into thinking he was blinded by Jesus. Here is a clue; he was told to go to the house of Judas to see a man named Ananias, who would heal him.

Jesus appointed 12 Apostles to judge the 12 Tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of them. When Jesus promised to send them The Spirit, Paul was not one of them. When they were baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit, Paul was not one of them. Paul’s supposed conversion was late. Go back to my post on Habakkuk 2:2-5 and check it out.

Jesus’ teachings certainly differ with those of the OT. The god that sat in the tabernacle and temple of Israel was not God. There were even prophets who taught the wrong doctrine.

Jesus gave us all the information we need to sort the lies of Satan from the Truth of The Father. You can take the messages of the Prophets quoted by Christ as truth, and those are the only ones you need.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< Paul’s letters actually likely pre-date ALL the gospels, including Mark. More on that point later[/quote]Well yes, I said Mark was likely the earliest and hence the Galatian and Thessalonian epistles predate all the gospels. Unless you’re saying that all the Pauline epistles predate all the gospels?
[/quote]

Sorry, yes that was what I meant to say. It is entirely possible that nearly all of the Pauline letters (especially the major ones - Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, etc.) were written before Mark. [/quote]That ain’t the way I larned it Johnny (said Bugs Bunny to the tortoise), but I larned it a million years ago and maybe didn’t larn it as good as you larned it.
[/quote]
It really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who wrote what or when. The Father Himself wrote the entire Bible through the hands of men. It is one big riddle. Not to trivialize it, mind you. This is the most extensive and most important riddle ever in the history of man.

It is one monumental test to see if you can overcome the plans of Satan himself by seeing through The Deception. Please let go of all the arguments you’ve been taught to make when someone questions Scripture, even for just a little while.

Once the Truth of The Father overtakes you, it all becomes clear. Pray to The Father (not the God of the OT), and consider what I’ve posted. I will give you some time, because it may not all come at once, and then I will quote a piece of Scripture that is the most uplifting thing you’ve ever read if you can see through the biggest Lie ever told.

I’m praying for you

Please explain why you accept the gospel of Luke as is, but selectively parse the acts of the apostles all over the place as you see fit when the two are practically 2 volumes in a set. You may want to further explain why Jesus was so convinced that the God of the old testament was His Father and why the old testament scriptures were referred to by Him or directly quoted all the time.

Try this. In the 4th chapter of the very gospel of Luke under discussion here the Lord is tempted by the devil and He uses direct quotes from the law, the book Deuteronomy, and the prophets, Isaiah, to combat Satan’s temptations and show why He will not succumb. He retunrs to Galilee IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT and AS WAS HIS CUSTOM on the SABBATH (old testament law) goes to the SYNAGOGUE and a few verses later READS FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT, IN THE SYNAGOGUE, 61st chapter of ISAIAH and Himself proclaims that HE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THAT PROPHECY. He tells the Jews there that like their counterparts of old the majority will miss the move of God happening in their midst. He then goes out (is driven out) and begins demonstrating further His fulfilling of that prophecy in Capernaum by casting out demons and healing the sick.

Please note that for our purposes here it is utterly irrelevant in which precise lexical sense the Greek word for “is fulfilled” is taken (yes it’s one word). He is still DIRECTLY connected to and emerging from the old testament. The perfect tense of the verb is significant though. That’s a present ongoing state resulting from the past. (I will defer to his majesty for correction if need be in these details.)

Yoohoo, affectionately knocks on JP’s forehead. That is one chapter in one gospel. Could I possibly prevail upon you to elucidate for all the fine people reading this thread HOW ON EARTH THIS CAN POSSIBLY BE?!?!?!?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Focus on my last few posts. I started off only criticizing Paul, but then I realized that Paul is only a small player. He is the worthless shepherd of Hezekiah, but its not entirely his fault (maybe not his fault at all). He was deceived by Satan into thinking he was blinded by Jesus. Here is a clue; he was told to go to the house of Judas to see a man named Ananias, who would heal him.

Jesus appointed 12 Apostles to judge the 12 Tribes of Israel. Paul was not one of them. When Jesus promised to send them The Spirit, Paul was not one of them. When they were baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit, Paul was not one of them. Paul’s supposed conversion was late. Go back to my post on Habakkuk 2:2-5 and check it out.

Jesus’ teachings certainly differ with those of the OT. The god that sat in the tabernacle and temple of Israel was not God. There were even prophets who taught the wrong doctrine.

Jesus gave us all the information we need to sort the lies of Satan from the Truth of The Father. You can take the messages of the Prophets quoted by Christ as truth, and those are the only ones you need.[/quote]

Here’s what YOU don’t get, JayPierce. Please listen before you spout off any more of your supposed “revelations.” If your fundamental methods and assumptions (yes sir, believe it or not, you ARE approaching the texts from some very questionable assumptions, whether you have chosen them or not) as reflected in your reading of Paul are wrong, then EVERYTHING you have argued is wrong. It’s that simple.

I’ll start with some preliminary points.

First of all, you need to stop using the KJV. I asked you to stop that at the very beginning of our conversations. That is the worst translation that there is. It is based off of a handful of LATE, INACCURATE manuscripts with ALL KINDS OF ADDITIONS from well-meaning (but invariably mislead) scribes. Not only is the Greek that the English translation is based off of faulty, but the English language has changed so much in the last several centuries that even little, seemingly insignificant words and supposedly simple syntactical structures have changed TREMENDOUSLY. If you want to get mislead, read the King James. If you want to use a version that will convince other thinking people, then pick another one.

Secondly, you assume that you are the recipient of some small illumination, illumination that allows you to know the truth while others are left in darkness. Just so you know (since you have shown that you aren’t too knowledgeable about the history of biblical interpretation), EVERY SINGLE CULT LEADER over the last 2,000 years has made EXACTLY THAT SAME CLAIM. Every single one of them. 99% of them were just like you - minimal interpretive skills, minimal facility with their language, minimal knowledge of history - and the only way they could justify their equally aberrant claims was through appeals to divine illumination. So, either they were all lying, and you’re the first one in the last 2,000 years to ACTUALLY have received the revelation he claimed, or they honestly BELIEVED that they too had received illumination, but you’re the only one who is right about that. Or (and this is the scenario you need to pay attention to), they honestly believed that they too had received illumination just like you believe that YOU have received illumination, and ALL OF THEM (INCLUDING YOU) were wrong. With that track record, Jay, your claims to illumination are insufficient to establish your authority - you could just be one more uneducated, flighty, self-aggrandizing cultist - so your evidence alone is going to have to be scrutinized. You wouldn’t want people to trust you without fully understanding AND BEING CONVINCED OF the supposed “truth” of your arguments, would you?

Thirdly, this “revelation” you have received is NOT new. Marcion said this same stuff - God the Father is not the God of Israel - except Marcion was a LOT smarter than you. He realized that you cannot trust ANY part of the Old Testament Scriptures if the God of Israel is not the God of Jesus, because the Old Testament Scriptures do NOT make your cute, naive little distinction between “the god who dwells in the tabernacle” and the “true God.” You would know this if you actually READ the whole Old Testament, not simply jumping around like a toad from proof text to proof text. Your distinction is nothing short of arbitrary.

And just so you know, Jesus NEVER quotes Habakkuk, so based on your claim that the test of a text’s scriptural authority is whether or not Jesus quoted from it, then Habakkuk (and your ridiculous interpretation of it as a reference to Paul) goes out the window.

I’ll move to a more thorough discussion of your claims in my next post.

A final preliminary question - how do you justify YOUR supposed recognition of the “truth” in light of the fact that the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DIDN’T SEE IT? I said that Marcion was the first to have the same idea - that the God of Israel is not the God of Jesus - but as I pointed out before, he was a lot smarter than you. He not only recognized that you cannot cherry pick around the Old Testament to determine what is authoritative and what isn’t; he also realized how deeply the gospels reflect the beliefs of the Jewish people and the ENTIRE Old Testament. Consequently, he dismissed the Scriptural status of THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT, all the gospels except (a heavily edited version of) Luke, and all the epistles except Paul’s.

So how do you justify it? When people ask me how I can justify arguing for things in Scripture that the majority of people haven’t seen, I can explain it in a number of ways - I have developed interpretive and linguistic skills (facility with Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic) and a knowledge of Greco-Roman and ancient Near Eastern cultures that such people lack; I, along with other modern scholars, am more sensitive to the realities of context and the limitations of my own perspective than people have been previously, so my interpretation is more careful; etc. You, on the other hand, have none of those skills and show no historical sensitivity, and your “revelations” all come from a VERY CURSORY, SURFACE reading of a TRANSLATION, meaning that the average joe on the street should have arrived at your conclusions already, IF THEY WERE ACTUALLY THERE IN THE TEXT. Is that why you make the ridiculous and meaningless claim to special illumination, i.e., so that you can try to hide your glaring lack of interpretive abilities?

Now, I’ll deal with the meat of your assumptions before tackling your erroneous (and frankly disturbing) misinterpretations of specific passages…

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who wrote what or when. The Father Himself wrote the entire Bible through the hands of men. It is one big riddle. Not to trivialize it, mind you. This is the most extensive and most important riddle ever in the history of man.
[/quote]

Two assumptions here

  1. “The Father” is the true author of all the books included in the canon.
  2. These books function together to form a massive riddle that can only be deciphered through cross-textual reading (i.e., jumping from book to book).

NOW, the first assumption represents a serious hole in your argument. If “the Father” wrote “the entire Bible,” then on what grounds do you dismiss the authority of the books Jesus didn’t explicitly cite? Do you instead mean that the Father wrote “the entire Bible as I have delimited it,” i.e., the canon according to JayPierce, which consists of a handful of Psalms that Jesus quoted, Zechariah (not “Hezekiah”), Isaiah, Hosea, maybe another prophetic text or two, and of course, the gospels and Revelation?

Well, that would be fine and dandy if it weren’t for the fact that Jesus explicitly states, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.” Do you know what, in Jesus’ context, “the Law” and “the Prophets” referred to? These referred to the two closed corpuses at the time of Jesus (see Sirach introduction, lines 0:1-0:25, and 4 Maccabees 18:10). Guess what these two corpuses consisted of? “The Law” referred to the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), and “the Prophets” referred to what we Protestants consider the early historical books (Joshua, Judges, 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings) and ALL (EVERY SINGLE ONE) of the Prophetic books (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi).

Why does all this matter? Because it means that Jesus did not come to abolish ANY of the books listed above, which already form a MUCH larger corpus than you are willing to allow. So, we have a problem - either Jesus’ quotation of a book determines it’s authority (in which case Habakkuk is out, along with several others books you might be tempted to use), or Jesus’ clear recognition of the authority of “The Law and the Prophets” forces you to accept the legitimacy of many books that you think are “wrong” and/or “uninspired.” Which is it?

I’ll address the second assumption of your quoted statements in my next post.

“If you want to use a version that will convince other thinking people, then pick another one.”

Which version(s) of the Bible is the most recommended IYO then?
We were looking at your post expecting the Best Bible versions to study in the very next line
of your post.
Thx.

[quote]Karado wrote:
“If you want to use a version that will convince other thinking people, then pick another one.”

Which version(s) of the Bible is the most recommended IYO then?
We were looking at your post expecting the Best Bible versions to study in the very next line
of your post.
Thx.
[/quote]

New American Standard, New Revised Standard, English Standard Version, New International Version 2011, or the Common English Bible. Really anything other than the KJV would suffice, except for one of those excessively paraphrastic versions (The Message, New Living, etc.).

I have been a huge New American Standard guy for a long time. The orthodox guys need to get coordinated as it seems as if were all hitting poor JP from different angles which isn’t fair to him. I know the feeling. We are going to only further confuse him. He has a couple presuppositions that govern all the rest of his thought here. Maybe we should pick one of two which define all the rest of what he’s saying.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I have been a huge New American Standard guy for a long time. The orthodox guys need to get coordinated as it seems as if were all hitting poor JP from different angles which isn’t fair to him. I know the feeling. We are going to only further confuse him. He has a couple presuppositions that govern all the rest of his thought here. Maybe we should pick one of two which define all the rest of what he’s saying. [/quote]

That is the point of my very next post. I’ll deal with the central presupposition (assumption 2 on my previous post).

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I have been a huge New American Standard guy for a long time. The orthodox guys need to get coordinated as it seems as if were all hitting poor JP from different angles which isn’t fair to him. I know the feeling. We are going to only further confuse him. He has a couple presuppositions that govern all the rest of his thought here. Maybe we should pick one of two which define all the rest of what he’s saying. [/quote]

That is the point of my very next post. I’ll deal with the central presupposition (assumption 2 on my previous post).[/quote]I’m gonna be in and out the rest of the day. I will wait to see how you approach this.

All religion is bad because it tries to turn people into robots, using fear and mysticism.

To each mind here: I am speaking to you at the deathbed of your mind. The choice is to think for yourself or die as someone who spent his life on his knees, begging and grovelling.

Stand up! Throw off the millstone that holds you down. If there is a God, he wants not worms but MEN!

Stand up!!! STAND UP!!!

Wow, I have a “New American Bible” NT, That’s essentiaally a Catholic Bible…Ok, no problem.

I thought the KJV was fine for the very reason it HAS stood the test of time, the ‘Thees’
and The ‘Thou’s’ don’t bother me much, and I thought the KJV was strongly legit because it’s
via the “Textus Receptus”…Wow, how confusing…Thx for recommendations.

Other ‘deep’ knowledge is completely optional because…well, think of an elderly Christian
Lady who’s NOT very educated, and who’s about to die and cross over…IDK Much, but I DO know
she will not be quizzed about all this deeper stuff…She had a good, moral life, and was a believer,
so there won’t be this questioning about the deep stuff.
She will have to give an account of HER life like everybody else, but this deeper stuff?
I doubt it, otherwise 99.99999% Percent of other good moral Christians who DON’T know the
deeper stuff are utterly doomed, and who want’s to follow a Religion that “quizzes” when you
cross over? Heck, there’s controversy on who even wrote the Book Of Hebrews…WAS it Paul?
Was it Silas? Possibly, but no one really knows for sure, Hebrews may as well be in the same
Camp as The Book Of Enoch I guess.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who wrote what or when. The Father Himself wrote the entire Bible through the hands of men. It is one big riddle. Not to trivialize it, mind you. This is the most extensive and most important riddle ever in the history of man.
[/quote]

Here is (I think) the central assumption on which all the other’s hang…

“These books function together to form a massive riddle that can only be deciphered through cross-textual reading (i.e., jumping from book to book).”

You argue, JayPierce, that the Bible is “one big riddle.” There are two major problems with that statement.

  1. The “Bible” is an invention of the 4th century church, the church that, by this time, was entirely “Paulinized.” The Jews of Jesus’ day did not have a “bible;” they had two major corpuses of authoritative literature (the Law and the Prophets), and a third relatively undefined group (which included Esther and the rest of the texts). While the Jews individual scrolls containing the various books, it was not until the rise of the church that anyone thought to combine authoritative texts in single volumes (the codex). The Christians did it first with the Pauline letters in one codex and the gospels in another codex; eventually, the Hebrew Scriptures were also copied and organized into codices. But this was a Christian in the 2nd-4th centuries A.D., and the church that did this had been thoroughly Paulinized.

Why does any of this matter? Because to say that the Bible is a big puzzle IS to implicitly affirm (1) the unity and legitimacy of the canon (2) which the Paulinized (i.e., deceived) church gave you.

This is the historical argument that you have been ignoring. IT DOES MATTER when the books were written AND by whom - if the gospels post-date Paul, and Paul’s authority was already widely recognized in the first century, then that means that the gospels even were written by those who had been Paulinized. In that case, the very people who supposedly give YOU the words of Jesus ARE THE DECEIVED. So on what grounds do you trust them? The doctrine of inspiration? The deceived (i.e., the late first-early second century church) came up with that one too! You have nothing to go on in that case except your OWN supposed authority. In other words, your claims are completely arbitrary.

  1. Of what does this “Bible” consist? 66 books, NOT 66 chapters. These books were written over a span of CENTURIES by individuals in completely different situations. These texts run the gamut of genres - historiography, prophecy-poetry, sapiential literature, romance, satire, etc.

Now, when it comes to written discourse, what is the basic unit of meaning? The word? Nope. How about the sentence? Nope. It is the paragraph . THAT is the basic unit of meaning. Individual words have a range of possible meanings that vary from context to context; the same is true of sentences. It is the paragraph that provides the most basic contextual frame in which individual sentences and words can be understood. Yet even there, the meaning of a paragraph is ultimately bound up with the WORK in which the paragraph is found. An author doesn’t simply write a bunch of stuff down at a whim; sentences, topics, etc. are all organized around coherent goals. Why does Genesis begin with the beginning of the world and end with the Israelites in Egypt? Because it is an account of the covenant’s pre-history; the account of the covenant’s formation is found in Exodus.

The purpose of a text - its subject matter and aim - is the foundation of an author’s rhetorical strategy. He will select and organize his material in ways that further that purpose. This is what you didn’t get about the gospels when you asked why they left out some of Jesus’ sayings and deeds. What you SHOULD have been asking was WHY, if the goal was SIMPLY (as you seem to think) to provide a record of Jesus’ words and acts, the gospel authors OVERLAP SO MUCH IN THEIR TALES. Why do Matthew, Mark, and Luke not simply add new material to the existing framework provided by the text they are using (Luke came last and used Matthew and Mark, Matthew came second and used Mark)? WHY DO THEY CHANGE WHAT ONE GOSPEL WRITER SAYS JESUS SAID (as in the previous mentioned case of Matthew 21:18-22 and Mark 11)?

The answer lies in their different rhetorical strategies. Mark wants to emphasize Jesus’ condemnation and replacement of the Jewish temple; Matthew wants to emphasize Jesus’ power, and Mark’s portrayal makes Jesus seem weaker, so Matthew changes it. JAYPIERCE - the purpose of each text dictates how the individual elements are portrayed .

Now this isn’t only a phenomenon in the gospels - this is a fundamental truth about ALL the biblical texts (even all works in general). THAT INCLUDES THE OLD TESTAMENT. So when you read books like Habakkuk or Zechariah, you have NO legitimate basis for treating them like a random assemblage of discrete sayings. THEY MAKE LOOK LIKE THAT TO YOU, but that’s because you aren’t a competent reader of ancient texts. You cannot simply pull prophecies out of context, especially if you are going to give them a meaning that (1) only one or two people have argued for in all of church history, and (2) that Jesus himself did not give them.

Moreover, I’ve spoken before about genres - the genre of a work is part of the context that helps determine its meaning. Genres are marked by specific techniques, motifs, etc. Whether “the Father” wrote the “Bible” or not, the individual books fall into well-established generic categories common in the ancient world and employ the techniques common to those genres.

Case in point - Habakkuk 2. THe book of Habakkuk records Habakkuk’s discussion with God over Israel’s suffering at the hands of other nations. Habakkuk laments the fate that has befallen Israel and calls God to account (1:1-4). What is his biggest complaint? “The evil one hedges in the righteous one” (Hab. 1:5). That’s a direct translation from the Hebrew; if you want to see something comparable, look at the JPS version. This evil one is contrasted with the righteous one again in 1:13, and the evil one is the subject of 1:15-17. This is the one Habakkuk, contextually speaking, is crying out against. Consequently, based on the context, this is obviously the same evil one contrasted with the righteous one in 2:4. Who is the evil one? He is a cipher for “the Chaldeans” (1:6), a people group oppressing Israel at the time. It is NOT a veiled reference to Paul, nor is the statement “the righteous one will live by his faith” an allusion to what Paul says. Rather, 2:4 is contrasting the righteous with the wicked, the Chaldeans, here described in generic terms. Contextually, this isn’t a reference to Paul at all!

As if that wasn’t enough, your lack of knowledge about Hebrew poetry results in your fundamental mistranslation of Sheol in 2:5 (though I know the exact person you stole that information from, and in the future, you need to realize that, traditionally, Lawyers make TERRIBLE exegetes). Hebrew poetry functions on the basis of parallelism - one line says something, and the line after it continues or expands slightly on the same thought. Habakkuk is prophecy in the form of Hebrew poetry. Now look at the lines of 2:5

“(the proud one) opens his maw as wide as SHL
Who is as insatiable as death
Who has harvested all the nations
And collected all the peoples!”

Now, based on the requirements of Hebrew parallelism, since the last two lines are in parallel, we need something in the first line to be in parallel with death. What is that? Sheol, NOT Saul. Sheol and death were synonymous for the Hebrews; the poetic form requires that the word be Sheol here, NOT Saul, because only Sheol is synonymous with death in Hebrew.

More to come.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Wow, I have a “New American Bible” NT, That’s essentiaally a Catholic Bible…Ok, no problem.

I thought the KJV was fine for the very reason it HAS stood the test of time, the ‘Thees’
and The ‘Thou’s’ don’t bother me much, and I thought the KJV was strongly legit because it’s
via the “Textus Receptus”…Wow, how confusing…Thx for recommendations.

Other ‘deep’ knowledge is completely optional because…well, think of an elderly Christian
Lady who’s NOT very educated, and who’s about to die and cross over…IDK Much, but I DO know
she will not be quizzed about all this deeper stuff…She had a good, moral life, and was a believer,
so there won’t be this questioning about the deep stuff.
She will have to give an account of HER life like everybody else, but this deeper stuff?
I doubt it, otherwise 99.99999% Percent of other good moral Christians who DON’T know the
deeper stuff are utterly doomed, and who want’s to follow a Religion that “quizzes” when you
cross over? Heck, there’s controversy on who even wrote the Book Of Hebrews…WAS it Paul?
Was it Silas? Possibly, but no one really knows for sure, Hebrews may as well be in the same
Camp as The Book Of Enoch I guess.[/quote]
Many Christians are in circumstances where they don’t have the time or resources to obtain a deep knowledge of Christianity and are totally justified in believing even if it was just through the presentation of the Gospel like some in Africa or other places.

However for those of us who have the resources and time should “study to make ourselves approved”. It is our job to shape the cultural milieu in where the Gospel can get a hearing without it being dismissed as a fairy tale. The sentiment that Headhunter displayed is very common among western culture right now such as “Christainity requires leaving ones brain at the door, etc…” For that to perception to slowly change in our culture we have to equip Christians knowing how to handle objections intelligently and with respect and increase their knowledge about Christianity. Now everyone cannot become an expert in everything but we can all further ourselves in a topic that one is interested in whether it is the historicity of the Gospels or the relationship between faith and reason in our modern culture, etc…

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I have been a huge New American Standard guy for a long time. The orthodox guys need to get coordinated as it seems as if were all hitting poor JP from different angles which isn’t fair to him. I know the feeling. We are going to only further confuse him. He has a couple presuppositions that govern all the rest of his thought here. Maybe we should pick one of two which define all the rest of what he’s saying. [/quote]

That is the point of my very next post. I’ll deal with the central presupposition (assumption 2 on my previous post).[/quote]I’m gonna be in and out the rest of the day. I will wait to see how you approach this.
[/quote]
Ditto I don’t want to badger JP, better to let him have a one to one discussion with KK.

Well said, even in the USA most people so overworked and tired that when they
come home, their Brains ARE left at the door.
I do have inkling of some deeper knowledge, the hardcore multi-interprative mysteries are the ‘last days’
stuff, ‘last days’ this, ‘last days’ that… I think The “last days” started when Jesus ascended,
and that ‘last days’ passage in 2nd. Timothy has never made much sense to me because
Mankind has ALWAYS been like the people described, even the Hypocrites, there’s no “gauging” that passage.
If it were to say that in the last days people would born with a tiny blue mark on their
left eylid, THEN there’s a verifiable ‘gauge’.
I’m truly not trying to be funny, but many people have ALWAYS been boastful, having no
affection, etc. etc., and if it seems like there’s MORE Bad People NOW, well that’s only because
there are more PEOPLE on Earth now, that’s all.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Well said, even in the USA most people so overworked and tired that when they
come home, their Brains ARE left at the door.
I do have inkling of some deeper knowledge, the hardcore multi-interprative mysteries are the ‘last days’
stuff, ‘last days’ this, ‘last days’ that… I think The “last days” started when Jesus ascended,
and that ‘last days’ passage in 2nd. Timothy has never made much sense to me because
Mankind has ALWAYS been like the people described, even the Hypocrites, there’s no “gauging” that passage.
If it were to say that in the last days people would born with a tiny blue mark on their
left eylid, THEN there’s a verifiable ‘gauge’.
I’m truly not trying to be funny, but many people have ALWAYS been boastful, having no
affection, etc. etc., and if it seems like there’s MORE Bad People NOW, well that’s only because
there are more PEOPLE on Earth now, that’s all.[/quote]
I came from a false denomination that was overly future prophecy centered never giving reasons why their interpretation was more plausible than others or showed historic sensitivity to the texts they were using to support their position so I understand how you’re feeling about the “verifiable gauge” concerning interpretation about future prophecy.

@HH and again, anyone who will read and try to understand; you nailed it. You have no idea how perfectly you nailed it.

The Father does not want you on your knees!! He wants you to pray and think on your feet! You have to know I’m not making this stuff up. It’s people like you, who have rejected the teachings of the church and have acted out of love for something or someone other than yourself, who can feel this in their soul better than most.

@ Tirib, KK, and Joab

The words of Christ:

[quote]You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.[/quote] John 8:44.

Look at the context of that quote, and look who He was talking to. Look at what they were saying to Him.

I am not posting this as a judgment, but to open your eyes.