[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i think it’s foolishness to have an unregulated free market. I don’t trust corporations to act ethical…
[/quote]
So you trust politicians, bureaucrats, and the unwashed masses instead…?
No thanks. I’ll trust my luck with the most unethical CEO over the most ethically correct politician any day.
It makes no sense that one would trust elected officials especially since these people come from the same pool of unethical citizens who vote for them.
It would be far better to just give the keys to kingdom directly to the douche bags with money since that will the end result anyway. That is what democracy inevitably leads to.[/quote]
…altough i don’t entirely disagree with you, i guess i’d rather have a little influence than none at all. It might not take very long before that little influence is gone though; we’ll just have to wait and see…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i think it’s foolishness to have an unregulated free market. I don’t trust corporations to act ethical…
[/quote]
So you trust politicians, bureaucrats, and the unwashed masses instead…?
No thanks. I’ll trust my luck with the most unethical CEO over the most ethically correct politician any day.
It makes no sense that one would trust elected officials especially since these people come from the same pool of unethical citizens who vote for them.
It would be far better to just give the keys to kingdom directly to the douche bags with money since that will the end result anyway. That is what democracy inevitably leads to.[/quote]
…altough i don’t entirely disagree with you, i guess i’d rather have a little influence than none at all. It might not take very long before that little influence is gone though; we’ll just have to wait and see…
[/quote]
So where do you actually have a little influence, when you vote with your wallet or when you vote in the elections every four years or so?
Who do you think cares more, the shop owner or the politician.
if anyone listens to EconTalk, there was an ineresting discussion with Don Boudreaux about public choice a few weeks ago … Orion your last post reminded me of it
…altough i don’t entirely disagree with you, i guess i’d rather have a little influence than none at all. It might not take very long before that little influence is gone though; we’ll just have to wait and see…
[/quote]
So where do you actually have a little influence, when you vote with your wallet or when you vote in the elections every four years or so?
Who do you think cares more, the shop owner or the politician.
[/quote]
…it makes little difference either way orion, for me personally at least…
…altough i don’t entirely disagree with you, i guess i’d rather have a little influence than none at all. It might not take very long before that little influence is gone though; we’ll just have to wait and see…
[/quote]
So where do you actually have a little influence, when you vote with your wallet or when you vote in the elections every four years or so?
Who do you think cares more, the shop owner or the politician.
[/quote]
…it makes little difference either way orion, for me personally at least…
[/quote]
…altough i don’t entirely disagree with you, i guess i’d rather have a little influence than none at all. It might not take very long before that little influence is gone though; we’ll just have to wait and see…
[/quote]
So where do you actually have a little influence, when you vote with your wallet or when you vote in the elections every four years or so?
Who do you think cares more, the shop owner or the politician.
[/quote]
…it makes little difference either way orion, for me personally at least…
[/quote]
Do you live in a cave?
[/quote]
Worse. Holland. Just kidding, just kidding.
A very interesting and enlightening discussion gentlemen. Please continue.
…it makes little difference either way orion, for me personally at least…
[/quote]
Do you live in a cave?
[/quote]
…almost i don’t have a t.v. set, i don’t read newspapers and i listen to the radio at work but that’s music mostly. It’s impossible to stay completely ignorant of news and the latest events, but i don’t subject myself to advertising or the latest tragedy in China or Africa…
…there’s supposedly an outbreak of Q-fever in the Netherlands; missed that completely. I do try to keep current on issues like netneutrality, privacy and [il]legalisation of drugs, but that’s because i want to not because i can’t help myself to be bombarded by innane ramblings of socalled experts, or the latest detergent on sale NOW…
…if i hadn’t learned how to pick my battles, i’d gone insane years ago…
…if this, the drama and the latest gadget, is what a society wants from it’s new outlets, then what do you expect from that society? Not that they care about freedom, i reckon:
Companies are greedy. It doesn’t make sense NOT to regulate them. Companies can’t use coercive power in the western world because there would be consequences.
As a side note, I don’t have much belief in the political system of today either, and I agree that many politicians are powerhungry assholes, some are also in it for more or less good ideological reasons, but they will have to act like dicks to get any power anyways.
But in a modern democratic state, there is at least some form of democracy, it’s always weak, but it’s there. Corporations however are dictatorships where a small elite controls “everything”, and get disproportionally rich from the work of many people lower in the food chain.
So while I don’t trust governments to do the right thing, I trust corporations even less. Their sole purpose is to maximize profit, and very often they will make unethical decisions to attain said profits.
Companies are greedy. It doesn’t make sense NOT to regulate them. Companies can’t use coercive power in the western world because there would be consequences.
As a side note, I don’t have much belief in the political system of today either, and I agree that many politicians are powerhungry assholes, some are also in it for more or less good ideological reasons, but they will have to act like dicks to get any power anyways.
But in a modern democratic state, there is at least some form of democracy, it’s always weak, but it’s there. Corporations however are dictatorships where a small elite controls “everything”, and get disproportionally rich from the work of many people lower in the food chain.
So while I don’t trust governments to do the right thing, I trust corporations even less. Their sole purpose is to maximize profit, and very often they will make unethical decisions to attain said profits.
[/quote]
But “corporations” are “dictatorships” that will either listen to their customers or perish.
Then I do not get how you you trust government more than corporations.
Do you kniw what governments are? Corporations with guns. What good could that possibly do?
edit: I guess I do not undertstand how the magic of “voting” makes its all ok somehow.
In real life “voting” just makes sure that the bottom of the barrel is calling the shots.
But “corporations” are “dictatorships” that will either listen to their customers or perish.
Then I do not get how you you trust government more than corporations.
Do you kniw what governments are? Corporations with guns. What good could that possibly do?
edit: I guess I do not undertstand how the magic of “voting” makes its all ok somehow.
In real life “voting” just makes sure that the bottom of the barrel is calling the shots.[/quote]
Corporations aren’t people.
For example… what do I care if my company fails, if I can pull out a couple million dollars first?
This is the 21st century problem, with mega-corporations, where the people in charge don’t really have much at stake in the company… their “objective self interest” is not to make the most successful company, by offering the best product or service at the best price… it’s to accumulate as much personal wealth as possible… who cares how the corporation goes once your finances are secure.
But “corporations” are “dictatorships” that will either listen to their customers or perish.
Then I do not get how you you trust government more than corporations.
Do you kniw what governments are? Corporations with guns. What good could that possibly do?
edit: I guess I do not undertstand how the magic of “voting” makes its all ok somehow.
In real life “voting” just makes sure that the bottom of the barrel is calling the shots.[/quote]
Corporations aren’t people.
For example… what do I care if my company fails, if I can pull out a couple million dollars first?
This is the 21st century problem, with mega-corporations, where the people in charge don’t really have much at stake in the company… their “objective self interest” is not to make the most successful company, by offering the best product or service at the best price… it’s to accumulate as much personal wealth as possible… who cares how the corporation goes once your finances are secure.[/quote]
That sounds like a principal agent problem, which is really just the ancient question in disguise:
Who can I trust with my money?
That is not your problem, that is the problem of the people owning these companies.
That sounds like a principal agent problem, which is really just the ancient question in disguise:
Who can I trust with my money?
That is not your problem, that is the problem of the people owning these companies.
Why would you care?
[/quote]
It’s my problem if I work for the company. It’s my problem if they “own” a particular market. It’s my problem if they’re, say a bank, and all my money “stored” there, and then they go bankrupt because the guys on top figured out they could just spend my money however they wanted, get out, and let the bank fail.
I’m a believer that markets work, and self-regulate, at a local level, where the real benefits/detriments are felt by those involved.
Again, to use Randian speak, when a company gets big (it’s no longer your family buisness, or your “child”), one’s individual self-interest necessarily diverges from that of the company.
Assuming it’s not illegal, it’s never not in the guys on top’s self-interest to pull out enough capitol from the company to keep them comfy for the rest of their lives, then split, and let the company fail.
Companies are greedy. It doesn’t make sense NOT to regulate them. Companies can’t use coercive power in the western world because there would be consequences.
As a side note, I don’t have much belief in the political system of today either, and I agree that many politicians are powerhungry assholes, some are also in it for more or less good ideological reasons, but they will have to act like dicks to get any power anyways.
But in a modern democratic state, there is at least some form of democracy, it’s always weak, but it’s there. Corporations however are dictatorships where a small elite controls “everything”, and get disproportionally rich from the work of many people lower in the food chain.
So while I don’t trust governments to do the right thing, I trust corporations even less. Their sole purpose is to maximize profit, and very often they will make unethical decisions to attain said profits.
[/quote]
But “corporations” are “dictatorships” that will either listen to their customers or perish.
Then I do not get how you you trust government more than corporations.
Do you kniw what governments are? Corporations with guns. What good could that possibly do?
edit: I guess I do not undertstand how the magic of “voting” makes its all ok somehow.
In real life “voting” just makes sure that the bottom of the barrel is calling the shots.[/quote]
Yes they have to listen to their customers or perish. Many will gladly resort to child labour, poor working conditions or chemical waste dumping if this cuts cost down, so they can cut prizes (or just maximize profits without cutting prizes if they don’t have to). Just because they have to listen to their customers doesn’t make them good, because what’s good for their customers doesn’t always coincide with what’s good for the workers, for the environment, or for other people that are somehow affected by the companies actions.
If you don’t control these things you’re fucked. There needs to be more control, not less.
By the way I never said the system of government that we have today is OK. I just think governments are the lesser of two evils if you think of them versus corporations. And I know what they are, and to say that they are corporations with guns is just a silly simplification which doesn’t serve any purpose.
Markets needs to be regulated. Laissez faire politics is what created the financial crisis.
[/quote]
What kind of fuckin’ weed are you smoking? Who’s gonna put food in your belly and make your electricity come on - the govt? I forgot, in the Paradise that is Norway, you have to pay what, 50% of your income in taxes? What does that make you but a fucking SLAVE?
The US is OVERLY regulated - that’s the fucking problem.
“Evil corporations” - what a bunch of shit.
Yesterday, agents from Hewlett Packard invaded my home, forcing me at gunpoint to buy their 30" computer monitor. This monitor is made in Mexico by 7 year old kids. HP is known to force their child employees to drink contaminated water from the rivers that they poisoned.
ORION - good posts and good luck, but your logic is being lost on these college kids who’ve probably never had to pay for anything in their lives. I was a LIBERAL in college too and had to discover REASON on my own.
[quote]saveski wrote:
What kind of fuckin’ weed are you smoking? Who’s gonna put food in your belly and make your electricity come on - the govt? I forgot, in the Paradise that is Norway, you have to pay what, 50% of your income in taxes? What does that make you but a fucking SLAVE?
The US is OVERLY regulated - that’s the fucking problem.
[/quote]
After taxes a regular Norwegian will still be better of than a regular American. If the problem is overregulation, then why would Greenspan openly admit that the deregulation policies actually caused the crisis? Did he suddenly loose his knowledge of economics, or did he suddenly see the results of the policies? Kudos to him for having the balls to openly admit it.
[quote]saveski wrote:
“Evil corporations” - what a bunch of shit.
Yesterday, agents from Hewlett Packard invaded my home, forcing me at gunpoint to buy their 30" computer monitor. This monitor is made in Mexico by 7 year old kids. HP is known to force their child employees to drink contaminated water from the rivers that they poisoned.[/quote]
So no big companies use child labour? No big companies has dumped chemicals? Don’t you think even more companies would do that if there weren’t actual consequences for doing such things? Companies aren’t always “evil”, but in many cases they will do unethical things if they think it’s for the good of the company.
[quote]saveski wrote:
ORION - good posts and good luck, but your logic is being lost on these college kids who’ve probably never had to pay for anything in their lives. I was a LIBERAL in college too and had to discover REASON on my own.[/quote]
I’ve paid for everything in my life for quite some time now.
i don’t have a t.v. set, i don’t read newspapers and i listen to the radio at work but that’s music mostly. It’s impossible to stay completely ignorant of news and the latest events, but i don’t subject myself to advertising or the latest tragedy in China or Africa…