Attempting to Buy Peace

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]BigPaul wrote:
I see this as a beautiful development on the world stage. Palestine now has a democratically elected government, and therefore a legitimate one (theoretically) in the eyes of western culture. This would (hopefully) mean that if Hamas were to take any destructive action against other states there would be little hesitation on the part of the world community to intervene.

My hope is that Hamas will fracture into competing contingents - ultimately resulting in civil war. Not a happy thing to hope for, but I think it would present some opportunity for actula reform to take place.

In all reality though, somebody - either the israelis or the palestinians - will do something stupid and encite more conflict. And the cycle of false hope and disappointment will start over yet again.

Just out of interest, is anyone else keen on the idea of turning the israel-palestine area into a UN police state until these people can behave like adults again?[/quote]

The problem is not the Israelis. They have been defending themselves from outright destruction for a long time.

Don’t you know that the arabs want to drive all of them into the sea? Isreal does not take any shit from these extreme fanatics called Palestinians.

Fact is they can level Palestine 10 times over without blinking if they choose to.

I do agree that they will not be able to hide like a terror group does any longer. They will be directly responsible for their actions. Their supporters will also now be responsible.

42

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
The problem is not the Israelis. They have been defending themselves from outright destruction for a long time.
[/quote]
I do not doubt that those Palestinians who remember the Arab-Israeli War or the Six-Day war would contend that they today face outright destruction themselves. I would not agree with this perspective, but I find it a little bit understandable (understandable, not reasonable) given some of the things that may have been witnessed by Palestenians durring these conflicts and generalized to the whole of Israel.

If these people had any communication to speak of between themselves I do not doubt that a great deal of tension born out of their mutual fear of the other would dissipate as it would come to light that the extremists are perceived to represent more persons than they in fact do.

I am well aware of this desire that extremist muslims have. I am also aware of very similar sentiment toward Palestinians and sympathetic Muslims on the part of zionists Jews.

It is the extremist factions of both groups that hold these views. Not that the biased media in both Israel and Palestine help.

This is very true, however it should be noted that this ability came by virtue of the U.S. generous terms of sale on myriad military equipment to Israel and very significant annual aid to Israel. It should also be noted that the sale of this military equipment to Israel exists in a very narrow gray area of the U.S. Arms Transfer Code of Conduct - which expressly forbids that military equipment be sold or otherwise transfered to states that are engaged in civil war or that will use the arms against other nations.

In line with the original post’s question, I must ask are we effectively subsidizing protracted violence? I know that at this stage in the game we have little other option, but it is a notion worth considering.

[quote]
I do agree that they will not be able to hide like a terror group does any longer. They will be directly responsible for their actions. Their supporters will also now be responsible. [/quote]

It is a beautiful thing.

43

There will be no solution with Hamas at the wheel.
This conflict has passed the point of no return. I’m afraid that we will see this confict spiral out of control to a new level of carnage.
Many innocent children will die as the rest of the world debates…
Israel wants to feel secure, and having the upper hand and superior weaponry and resources will do what it feels is right…for Israel.
Hamas will of course show the rest of the Muslim world that it is a force to be reckoned with and make extremism and suicide bombings a daily event.
America has fucked up badly in the middle east and is continuing to do so.
They will of course support Israel when it’s all said and done and God help America when the Muslims start to retaliate world wide.
This is a no win situation for all.

It’s really quite interesting that the end of the world might be started by the squabbling of two nations that make up less than .1% of the earths population…
We can only hope and pray…

44

[quote]BigPaul wrote:
Just out of interest, is anyone else keen on the idea of turning the israel-palestine area into a UN police state until these people can behave like adults again?
[/quote]

Palestinians have been asking for an intervention of this kind for a long time.

It just might work, but it will never happen.

Israel like any sovereign state will never accept any kind of occupation of it’s territory. (Remind you of anyone ?)

They have nuclear weapons.

That ensures them that nobody will be stupid enough to try and make them accept an imposed solution.

45

Here a less pessimistic (perhaps a bit too positive) comment from today’s Guardian:

The Palestinians’ democratic choice must be respected

The excuses given for refusing to deal with Hamas will not wash. This is a chance for Europe to have an independent role

Jonathan Steele
Friday January 27, 2006

“…The poll was a more impressive display of democracy than any other in the region, outstripping last year’s votes in Lebanon and Iraq both in turnout and the range of views that candidates represented…”

“…it was further proof that civil society in Palestine is more vibrant than anywhere else in the region and that Palestinian politics has its own dynamics, dictated not by outside pressure but the social and economic demands of ordinary people in appalling conditions. Providing a forum to freely express hopes and fears, debate policy and seek agreed solutions is, after all, what democracy is about…”

And here the centrepiece in my view: “Applaud the process but don’t take issue with the result. While the dust settles and Hamas works out its own priorities for government, Europeans should calmly analyse why Hamas got so much support.”

and

“Above all, Europe should not get hung up on the wrong issues, like armed resistance and the “war on terror”. Murdering a Palestinian politician by a long-range attack that is bound also to kill innocent civilians is morally and legally no better than a suicide bomb on a bus. Hamas’s refusal to give formal recognition of Israel’s right to exist should also not be seen by Europe as an urgent problem. History and international politics do not march in tidy simultaneous steps. For decades Israel refused even to recognise the existence of the Palestinian people, just as Turkey did not recognise the Kurds. Until 15 years ago Palestinians had to be smuggled to international summits as part of Jordan’s delegation. It is less than that since the Israeli government accepted the goal of a Palestinian state.”

Again, I think just a bit too optimistic, but in some places not so off at all IMO.

Makkun

46

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Kina Mutai wrote:
OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
“The Q’uran forbids democracy.”

Uh, no it doesn’t. The height of the Muslim empire was during the middle ages when their empire was a full-fledged democracy when even women had the right to vote.

How is an empire a full-fledged democracy?

This sounds fishy to me.[/quote]

Exactly. What the fuck are you talking about? The Ottoman Empire was a democracy? Wow, I guess they better rewrite the history books, looks like Muslim democracy preceded the American and French revolutions by a few centuries.

47

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Greetings!!!

reckless,

Are you pleased that hamas won the election?

Yes or no will do.

JeffR[/quote]

I’m not reckless, but I’m pleased. Hamas is a terrorist group that blows up kids, and its stated goal is the destruction of Israel. OK…but Fatah harbors and coddles terrorists, has no legitimacy amongst its own people, and couldn’t rein in Palestinian terrorism even if it wanted to. At least Hamas has popular support and strength, which means if it negotiates with Israel it means something. I’m not convinced political power is going to moderate Hamas a la the IRA (not that that’s a perfect situation either), but stranger things have happened. And believe it or not, there are worse Palestinian groups than Hamas: Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda offshoots, others.

48

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
makkun wrote:
Headhunter,

Headhunter wrote:
As has just been demonstrated in Palestine, we cannot buy peace. At least now, millions of our tax dollars won’t continue to go to those who hate us. (Unless a democrat wins in '08 – they’ll probably INCREASE the foreign aid to these vermin.)

I can only guess that you are referring to the expected win of Hamas in the Palestinian elections: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Palestinian PM to quit after poll

I am as sceptical of having a group like Hamas in government as anyone, but it seems to have been a legitimate democratic election. Respecting that is important, and we should give any democratically elected government the benefit of the doubt. Especially if we want a region like the Middle East to “democratise”.

Makkun

The Q’uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q’uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail. Their mind-set has been designed for a dictatorship, since Muslims are taught to give up their will to a nebulous, all-powerful being.

Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.

The problem is that power has devolved in favor of the defense. The USA no longer has the power to do this, as in Germany and Japan.

You sound like a fascist. And as dysfunctional as Islam is, do you really think an outside power, even one as powerful as 1945 America, could impose its will on 20% of the world’s population by armed force? We’re having enough trouble in Iraq alone.

Yawn… (1) The US is no where near its military potential. If we went all out, we could easily conquer all those shit-hole countries. (2) Me telling you that terrorists wish to kill you and can’t be swayed does not make me a fascist.

Yawn…

[/quote]

You really don’t make any sense, but I guess that’s to be expected from someone who reads Ann Coulter for political insight. The U.S. may be nowhere near its military potential, OK, maybe in the abstract that’s true, but try to think logically. The Republicans, ostensibly the party of national defense, have overwhelming political power in this country and have had it for five years. They are led by a president whose stated aim, the Bush Doctrine, is to radically change a whole swathe of the globe, by military force if necessary. And yet the military has not gotten any bigger since September 11. Not doubled in size as we enter a generational struggle, not added hundreds of thousands of new soldiers, not even added the couple of divisions many have called for. So when exactly are we going to reach our military potential?

49

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
makkun wrote:
Headhunter,

Headhunter wrote:
As has just been demonstrated in Palestine, we cannot buy peace. At least now, millions of our tax dollars won’t continue to go to those who hate us. (Unless a democrat wins in '08 – they’ll probably INCREASE the foreign aid to these vermin.)

I can only guess that you are referring to the expected win of Hamas in the Palestinian elections: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Palestinian PM to quit after poll

I am as sceptical of having a group like Hamas in government as anyone, but it seems to have been a legitimate democratic election. Respecting that is important, and we should give any democratically elected government the benefit of the doubt. Especially if we want a region like the Middle East to “democratise”.

Makkun

The Q’uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q’uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail. Their mind-set has been designed for a dictatorship, since Muslims are taught to give up their will to a nebulous, all-powerful being.

Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.

The problem is that power has devolved in favor of the defense. The USA no longer has the power to do this, as in Germany and Japan.

You sound like a fascist. And as dysfunctional as Islam is, do you really think an outside power, even one as powerful as 1945 America, could impose its will on 20% of the world’s population by armed force? We’re having enough trouble in Iraq alone.

Yawn… (1) The US is no where near its military potential. If we went all out, we could easily conquer all those shit-hole countries. (2) Me telling you that terrorists wish to kill you and can’t be swayed does not make me a fascist.

Yawn…

[/quote]

Also, do you believe in genocide against countries that harbor our enemies? Because that’s what your “levelling” calls sound an awful lot like.

50

“No one could plant a crop or dig a mine, much less build a factory, when there was no way to secure the investment or the lives of the people working at it.It took POWER, operating with the advantages of low cost, to prevent local marauding groups from playing havoc with trade… Such groups had done exactly that through most of history. They would gladly flood the mine, chopped down telegraph poles, and uprooted railroad tracks.”
— James Davidson
‘Blood in the Streets’

The computer you are sitting at reading this, the car you drive, and so forth are all there because of brute, smashing power. Off-stage stands a SWAT team or the US Marines willing to smash any gang that wants to disrupt civilisation.

The Islamic radicals are exactly a swarming marauding gang. They would happily rape your wife, torture your children to death, and burn down your home…and you guys want to negotiate with them. “Let’s try diplomacy!” the Left cries…with people who blow up my country. I’m a fascist because I want to level countries like Iran, who want to nuke me? “What about the innocent civilians?” They voted for the Iranian president! They voted for Hamas!!

Your death or theirs — choose. And your time is running out.

51

[quote]100meters wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

The Q’uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q’uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail.

You, my friend, are talking through your hat.

Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.

Again, you are talking through your hat.

Is that better than talking through my turban :slight_smile: ? Actually, rather than just saying and repeating this, how about some real intellectual input.

You offered none. Why return any?[/quote]

Wow, overwhelming brilliance shown here! If someone’s ideas differ with yours, then theirs lack content. You ARE a philosopher!!!

52

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
makkun wrote:
Headhunter,

Headhunter wrote:
As has just been demonstrated in Palestine, we cannot buy peace. At least now, millions of our tax dollars won’t continue to go to those who hate us. (Unless a democrat wins in '08 – they’ll probably INCREASE the foreign aid to these vermin.)

I can only guess that you are referring to the expected win of Hamas in the Palestinian elections: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Palestinian PM to quit after poll

I am as sceptical of having a group like Hamas in government as anyone, but it seems to have been a legitimate democratic election. Respecting that is important, and we should give any democratically elected government the benefit of the doubt. Especially if we want a region like the Middle East to “democratise”.

Makkun

The Q’uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q’uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail. Their mind-set has been designed for a dictatorship, since Muslims are taught to give up their will to a nebulous, all-powerful being.

Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.

The problem is that power has devolved in favor of the defense. The USA no longer has the power to do this, as in Germany and Japan.

You sound like a fascist. And as dysfunctional as Islam is, do you really think an outside power, even one as powerful as 1945 America, could impose its will on 20% of the world’s population by armed force? We’re having enough trouble in Iraq alone.

Yawn… (1) The US is no where near its military potential. If we went all out, we could easily conquer all those shit-hole countries. (2) Me telling you that terrorists wish to kill you and can’t be swayed does not make me a fascist.

Yawn…

Also, do you believe in genocide against countries that harbor our enemies? Because that’s what your “levelling” calls sound an awful lot like.[/quote]

If they vote for terrorists, if they declare themselves my enemy, if they as a society relish destruction, then I would grant their wish.

53

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Since the USA will shut off the cash, they’re going to have big problems.
Who the hell do they think was paying all their bills? The US taxpayer!!

Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.

I’m saying: Level this f’in’ place or be levelled!

You keep babbling about shutting of cash. What cash? You act like you fund the world but you don’t.

How much money did you spend paying their bills? Do you know? Or do you just shoot off at the mouth?[/quote]

See BB’s article below. Now who’s IGNORANTLY shooting off HIS mouth?

54

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
“No one could plant a crop or dig a mine, much less build a factory, when there was no way to secure the investment or the lives of the people working at it.It took POWER, operating with the advantages of low cost, to prevent local marauding groups from playing havoc with trade… Such groups had done exactly that through most of history. They would gladly flood the mine, chopped down telegraph poles, and uprooted railroad tracks.”
— James Davidson
‘Blood in the Streets’

The computer you are sitting at reading this, the car you drive, and so forth are all there because of brute, smashing power. Off-stage stands a SWAT team or the US Marines willing to smash any gang that wants to disrupt civilisation.

The Islamic radicals are exactly a swarming marauding gang. They would happily rape your wife, torture your children to death, and burn down your home…and you guys want to negotiate with them. “Let’s try diplomacy!” the Left cries…with people who blow up my country. I’m a fascist because I want to level countries like Iran, who want to nuke me? “What about the innocent civilians?” They voted for the Iranian president! They voted for Hamas!!

Your death or theirs — choose. And your time is running out.[/quote]

You have an incredibly simplistic view of things, and no understanding of military conflict. Iran, country with no legitimate political parties. Majority of people hate the mullahs. Sounds like a good idea to declare them our enemies and carpet bomb the country. Not a chance they would then actually hate us and embrace their tyrants is there?

Did it ever occur to you that terrorists can’t be “leveled”, that they fight asymmetrical warfare in which they blend into the societies they attack, and need, as 9/11 proved, minimal resources for those attacks? Even if you killed every single Muslim in the Middle East (which I don’t think you’d be opposed to) there’s another 10-20 million in Europe who would fight you to the last man. Or is ethnic cleansing part of the plan too?

55

[quote]hedo wrote:
BB

That article lays out the situation pretty well.

The PLA could turn a bling eye towards terrorist actions or support them behind the scenes. Now that the terrorist organization has become the government I don’t think Israel will show as much restraint. Unless Hamas changes the goals they have regarding destroying Israel and driving the Israeli’s away, I don’t think they will be treated with much symapthy.

I heard a comment today that the situation has gone from State sponsored terrorism to a terrorist sponsored state. Terrorists with an address don’t last too long.[/quote]

Israel showed restraint???

That’s really funny.

How about if I come over to your house and show restraint.

56

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
On the surface a Hamas win is bad news but I don’t think it is.

A Hamas win confirms the mindset of the Palestinian people. We alrady knew they were brainwashed. This win does not make it worse than it was last week.

The good news is Hamas will be forced to deal with all the issues a government has to deal with. When they prove themselves incompetent the Palestinian people will realize they have been dealing with the devil.

Great point, and great attitude to have, Zap. It may be a blessing in disguise.

[/quote]

Yep, sure is a blessing in disguise…

Israel’s Hamas
The New York Press
04/17/2002
The mantra that Arafat crack down on terror has always been a fraud. Who is to do this cracking down? Obviously, Palestinian police, security forces and courts. But they are the chief target of Sharon’s murderous onslaught. Sharon’s strategy today is the same as it was in Beirut in 1982. He wants to destroy and discredit the Palestinian Authority so as to ensure the Palestinians are left without a credible leadership. Chaos and anarchy on the West Bank would then provide Israel with the justification it needs to drive out the indigenous population and render the territory governable.

This has been longstanding Israeli policy. Starting in the late 1970s Israel helped build up the most fanatical and intolerant fundamentalist Muslims as rivals to the nationalist PLO. The terrorist organization Hamas is largely an Israeli creation. A UPI story last year quoted a U.S. government official as saying: “The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place.”
http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_hamas8.html

Sharon’s Terror Child
How the Likud Bloc Mid-wifed the Birth of Hamas
January 19, 2003
Hamas is considered one of Israel’s greatest threats, but the Islamic terrorist organization found its beginnings in the misguided Israeli effort to encourage the rise of a religious alternative that would undermine the popularity of the Palestine Liberation Organization and Yasir Arafat.
http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html

Hamas, Son of Israel
The Israelis birthed and nurtured their Islamist nemesis
January 27, 2006
Amid all the howls of pain and gnashing of teeth over the triumph of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, one fact remains relatively obscure, albeit highly relevant: Israel did much to launch Hamas as an effective force in the occupied territories. If ever there was a clear case of “blowback,” then this is it.

57

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Greetings!!!

reckless,

Are you pleased that hamas won the election?

Yes or no will do.

JeffR[/quote]

Let’s just say it didn’t piss me off as the election of Bush.

And that doesn’t mean that I support violence in the middle-east. Like the US does, by supporting Israel.

It’s just that Hamas will have to take up some responsibility now. It’s easy to be militant when you’re in the opposition. Now that they have the responsibility to feed 3.500.000 people, they’ll have to moderate their views.

Let’s see who else is happy with the Hamas victory. Well, Israel had the El Fattah candidate in prison. So had they wanted to prevent a Hamas victory, they could have released him so he could have run a decent campaign. They didn’t. So they must be happy with the Hamas victory right?
Now they claim they don’t have a negotiating partner, but they have been claiming that when Arafat was alive, and they humiliated and threatened him in his compound. Remember that?
And they have been largely ignoring the P.A. after Arafat died, claiming they didn’t have any real authority. The PA was unable to unarm the militants. Gee, perhaps bombing all their prisons and policestations wasn’t such a great idea after all.

Bush must be pleased right?
He was pushing for elections for several years. And he knew, well, he probably didn’t, but anybody with half a brain should have known, that the race would be between El Fattah and Hamas. He didn’t like El Fattah, so now he’s happy with Hamas right?

To my surprise, he’s not happy either.

What we have in the middle east is a bunch of fools (on every side) who NEVER accept the consequences for their own actions, but know perfectly what the other party has to do to achieve peace.

What we lack is people who do accept the consequences for their ctions and know what they have to do THEMSELVES to achieve peace.

I’m surprised with all these morons that are surprised about this Hamas victory.

What’s also really funny is when Bush explained that you can’t sit at the negotiating table when you have a militant arm.

He’s wrong.

You can’t sit at the negotiating table when you DON’T have a militant arm. If you don’t have the means to defend yourself and hurt the other side, you just have to endure the “peace” they trust upon you.

58

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:
They have nuclear weapons.

That ensures them that nobody will be stupid enough to try and make them accept an imposed solution.
[/quote]

Good point, maybe someone should just give the palestinians nukes too and all these assholes can just blow eachother to their respective afterlives.

59

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
hedo wrote:
BB

That article lays out the situation pretty well.

The PLA could turn a bling eye towards terrorist actions or support them behind the scenes. Now that the terrorist organization has become the government I don’t think Israel will show as much restraint. Unless Hamas changes the goals they have regarding destroying Israel and driving the Israeli’s away, I don’t think they will be treated with much symapthy.

I heard a comment today that the situation has gone from State sponsored terrorism to a terrorist sponsored state. Terrorists with an address don’t last too long.

Israel showed restraint???

That’s really funny.

How about if I come over to your house and show restraint.[/quote]

Do you really think the IDF response recently has been anything more then measured? That’s naive.

Sure come on over. Unfortunately with that bad attitude you’d be treated like a jihadist at Gitmo.

60

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
On the surface a Hamas win is bad news but I don’t think it is.

A Hamas win confirms the mindset of the Palestinian people. We alrady knew they were brainwashed. This win does not make it worse than it was last week.

The good news is Hamas will be forced to deal with all the issues a government has to deal with. When they prove themselves incompetent the Palestinian people will realize they have been dealing with the devil.[/quote]

A Hamas win does confirm YOUR mindset. Already you see the BENEFIT…

Unfortunately you just haven’t had that “ah-ha” moment yet.