Atheism-o-Phobia Part 3

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
961

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
http://imgur.com/DSJ5I[/quote]

You guys keep repasting the same terrible summaries. Alot of which is patently false. Mithras, for instance, developed from a rock into a full grown man. Where’s the virgin? Nor is there ANY mention of 12 disciples. There is one post-christian carving of him along with representations of the zodiac. Prove me wrong and I will never post here again. Ever. Oh,

Oh, and Jesus isn’t said to be born on Dec. 25…[/quote]

Yeah, sorry to be dense but I didnt exactly understand what you posted before about christians celebrating christmas on december 25… he’s said to have died on march 25, so christians celebrate his ressurection in april and his birth in december? Since when do you celebrate someones birthday nine months after their death?[/quote]

Huh? I’m saying Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. There’s no real indication of his birthdate, period. The day is used because it’s been a festive time of the year in history. It’s a matter of convenience, of coinciding a celebration at a traditional time for such things…not a claim of WHEN Christ was born. We’re celebrating a birth, not a birthday. There is no “Oh hey, hey, guys, look these pagan gods were said to be born on Dec. 25, just like the Jesus story. Derp.” The “jesus story” says nothing about his birthdate…It’s not even a matter for comparison.[/quote]

Didnt you post a link in the history of christmas thread? Or was that somebody else?[/quote]

Yes, I posted a link or two.

962

Ok. The blurb from the one link claimed that december 25 as christmas was legit from christianity because jesus was said to die on march 25th. Questioning the logic there.

963

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< Huh? I’m saying Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. There’s no real indication of his birthdate, period. The day is used because it’s been a festive time of the year in history. It’s a matter of convenience, of coinciding a celebration at a traditional time for such things…not a claim of WHEN Christ was born. We’re celebrating a birth, not a birthday. There is no “Oh hey, hey, guys, look these pagan gods were said to be born on Dec. 25, just like the Jesus story. Derp.” The “jesus story” says nothing about his birthdate…It’s not even a matter for comparison.[/quote]Protestants range from Christmas being an outright Satanic holiday to be unconditionally denounced by all believers to what Sloth here has said. Personally I don’t care and I don’t think God does either. I don’t really “celebrate” Christmas, nor do I not. I tell people “merry Christmas” and I do reflect on the heart stoppingly awesome reality of the incarnation of the Son of God.
It has no spiritual significance good or bad in itself. The date of Christ’s birth is entirely irrelevant unless the scriptures specified when which they don’t, which is fine, because like I say. Who cares?

964

[quote]forlife wrote:
Tiribulus’s words are telling when he talks about “worshiping rationality”. The religious justify the irrationality of their beliefs by denigrating logic and reason. These are dismissed as the tools of the natural man, who is labeled an enemy to god.

This tactic allows them to dodge every rational argument, and to believe literally anything they want to believe. This is why so many religions contradict one another, even within the Christian realm.

Emotionality, parading as spirituality, is a poor substitute for common sense. [/quote]

It’s all about bringing everyone else down to their level.

965

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< Huh? I’m saying Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. There’s no real indication of his birthdate, period. The day is used because it’s been a festive time of the year in history. It’s a matter of convenience, of coinciding a celebration at a traditional time for such things…not a claim of WHEN Christ was born. We’re celebrating a birth, not a birthday. There is no “Oh hey, hey, guys, look these pagan gods were said to be born on Dec. 25, just like the Jesus story. Derp.” The “jesus story” says nothing about his birthdate…It’s not even a matter for comparison.[/quote]Protestants range from Christmas being an outright Satanic holiday to be unconditionally denounced by all believers to what Sloth here has said. Personally I don’t care and I don’t think God does either. I don’t really “celebrate” Christmas, nor do I not. I tell people “merry Christmas” and I do reflect on the heart stoppingly awesome reality of the incarnation of the Son of God.
It has no spiritual significance good or bad in itself. The date of Christ’s birth is entirely irrelevant unless the scriptures specified when which they don’t, which is fine, because like I say. Who cares?
[/quote]

People with brains, who use them.

966

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Tiribulus’s words are telling when he talks about “worshiping rationality”. The religious justify the irrationality of their beliefs by denigrating logic and reason. These are dismissed as the tools of the natural man, who is labeled an enemy to god.

This tactic allows them to dodge every rational argument, and to believe literally anything they want to believe. This is why so many religions contradict one another, even within the Christian realm.

Emotionality, parading as spirituality, is a poor substitute for common sense. [/quote]

It’s all about bringing everyone else down to their level.[/quote]

True. They compare an unproved and unprovable SuperPower and a general faith that the sun will come up tomorrow.

And of course, the old “Why do you care what I believe? Why dont you leave me alone you mean ol party pooper?” Well, in theory it’d be nice, but the believers always end up doing things that directly affect other people, with no other basis than they want to (masked as “god commands it”)

967

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
http://imgur.com/DSJ5I[/quote]

You guys keep repasting the same terrible summaries. Alot of which is patently false. Mithras, for instance, developed from a rock into a full grown man. Where’s the virgin? Nor is there ANY mention of 12 disciples. There is one post-christian carving of him along with representations of the zodiac. Prove me wrong and I will never post here again. Never.

Oh, and Jesus isn’t said to be born on Dec. 25…[/quote]

For the record, as with most ancient mystery cults, there are a few different versions of how Mithras was ‘born’.

As it is, I think that Jesus being born of a virgin resulted in a mistranslation. MOST of these type of comparisons come from Graves - which was poorly researched and some of the similarities were stretched. To be sure, there are some similarities - as I pointed out in another thread, Justin the Martyr famously argued that Christianity wasn’t all that different from the pagan religions at the time. I believe he compared Jesus’ virgin birth to Perseus.

IN ANY EVENT, yes, there is some melding of Hellenistic religion with Christianity - the whole ‘human/god’ thing being the most obvious (as the ancient Hebrews would detest such a notion) and the Eucharist, baptism, etc. Most of the story, however, is fairly obviously cribbed from the Old Testament. Some of it ludicrously so (such as Jesus riding into town on two asses).

So, I would disagree with the charge of ‘outright forgeries’, but I would not disagree with similarities. Look at the Mormon Church, for a similar development. Joseph Smith didn’t outright plagiarize any other religion, what he did was take from the Old Testament, sprinkled some very poorly researched history and fuse the two together. A similar thing occurred with Christianity.

968

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< Huh? I’m saying Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. There’s no real indication of his birthdate, period. The day is used because it’s been a festive time of the year in history. It’s a matter of convenience, of coinciding a celebration at a traditional time for such things…not a claim of WHEN Christ was born. We’re celebrating a birth, not a birthday. There is no “Oh hey, hey, guys, look these pagan gods were said to be born on Dec. 25, just like the Jesus story. Derp.” The “jesus story” says nothing about his birthdate…It’s not even a matter for comparison.[/quote]Protestants range from Christmas being an outright Satanic holiday to be unconditionally denounced by all believers to what Sloth here has said. Personally I don’t care and I don’t think God does either. I don’t really “celebrate” Christmas, nor do I not. I tell people “merry Christmas” and I do reflect on the heart stoppingly awesome reality of the incarnation of the Son of God.
It has no spiritual significance good or bad in itself. The date of Christ’s birth is entirely irrelevant unless the scriptures specified when which they don’t, which is fine, because like I say. Who cares?
[/quote]

People with brains, who use them.[/quote]Well God has certainly given you brains and as soon as He most graciously grants you the born again power to use them properly you and I will stand together, hands raised singing the praises of His glorious exalted majesty.

969

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
<<< Huh? I’m saying Jesus was most likely not born on Dec. 25. There’s no real indication of his birthdate, period. The day is used because it’s been a festive time of the year in history. It’s a matter of convenience, of coinciding a celebration at a traditional time for such things…not a claim of WHEN Christ was born. We’re celebrating a birth, not a birthday. There is no “Oh hey, hey, guys, look these pagan gods were said to be born on Dec. 25, just like the Jesus story. Derp.” The “jesus story” says nothing about his birthdate…It’s not even a matter for comparison.[/quote]Protestants range from Christmas being an outright Satanic holiday to be unconditionally denounced by all believers to what Sloth here has said. Personally I don’t care and I don’t think God does either. I don’t really “celebrate” Christmas, nor do I not. I tell people “merry Christmas” and I do reflect on the heart stoppingly awesome reality of the incarnation of the Son of God.
It has no spiritual significance good or bad in itself. The date of Christ’s birth is entirely irrelevant unless the scriptures specified when which they don’t, which is fine, because like I say. Who cares?
[/quote]

People with brains, who use them.[/quote]Well God has certainly given you brains and as soon as He most graciously grants you the born again power to use them properly you and I will stand together, hands raised singing the praises of His glorious exalted majesty.
[/quote]

You said you were in your early 20s when you had that religious experience. Was that after something that made you particularly vulnerable?

970

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< You said you were in your early 20s when you had that religious experience. Was that after something that made you particularly vulnerable?[/quote]Just the opposite. LOL!!! I now see how every single step of my abominable BC life led me precisely to a black man’s apartment on Phoenix’s west side in 1984. I also witnessed the incomparable faithfulness and love of a holy God who kept me in the palm of His hand through years of white knuckle backsliding. This is no sport or academic exercise for me my friend. I owe Him my life a hundred times and gave him every reason to strike me dead on the spot times without number and he loved me back to Himself, arms open. Never again will I allow anything to come between my precious Lord and Savior and myself. All your guys attacks and argumentation are like spitballs fired at the rock of Gibraltar.

I don’t know what He’s going to do with any of you people. I pray that He saves one and all, but it’s not up to me. My only motivation is obedience. I have no interest in being right or winning arguments, or at least I really try not to. “So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.” 1st Corinthians 3:7

971

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< You said you were in your early 20s when you had that religious experience. Was that after something that made you particularly vulnerable?[/quote]Just the opposite. LOL!!! I now see how every single step of my abominable BC life led me precisely to a black man’s apartment on Phoenix’s west side in 1984. I also witnessed the incomparable faithfulness and love of a holy God who kept me in the palm of His hand through years of white knuckle backsliding. This is no sport or academic exercise for me my friend. I owe Him my life a hundred times and gave him every reason to strike me dead on the spot times without number and he loved me back to Himself, arms open. Never again will I allow anything to come between my precious Lord and Savior and myself. All your guys attacks and argumentation are like spitballs fired at the rock of Gibraltar.

I don’t know what He’s going to do with any of you people. I pray that He saves one and all, but it’s not up to me. My only motivation is obedience. I have no interest in being right or winning arguments, or at least I really try not to. “So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.” 1st Corinthians 3:7
[/quote]

But what you believe inevitably ends up affecting others. You do see why its important, right?

972

[quote]Pangloss wrote:
For the record, as with most ancient mystery cults, there are a few different versions of how Mithras was ‘born’.
[/quote]

I’ll need a citation from a primary source. You find one and I’ve already promised to leave the board.

He made comparisons in the sense of the…well, miraculous…in general. He was dealing with the “increduality” of the intended audience. Zeus, a was known to do, got his groove on.

“When Acrisius inquired of the oracle how he should get male children, the god said that his daughter would give birth to a son who would kill him.49 Fearing that, Acrisius built a brazen chamber under ground and there guarded Danae.50 However, she was seduced, as some say, by Proetus, whence arose the quarrel between them51; but some say that Zeus had intercourse with her in the shape of a stream of gold which poured through the roof into Danae’s lap. When Acrisius afterwards learned that she had got a child Perseus, he would not believe that she had been seduced by Zeus, and putting his daughter with the child in a chest, he cast it into the sea.”
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html#4

No, no way. That just can’t be! Christianity ‘cribbed’ from the hebrew faith?! This I would’ve never known!

973

“yeah, of course the new testament says Jesus was the promised Messiah. It’s all over the old testament”. Hmmm.

974

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< But what you believe inevitably ends up affecting others. You do see why its important, right?[/quote]And you would and are having it so that your unbelief affects others. Welcome to the world.

975

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< But what you believe inevitably ends up affecting others. You do see why its important, right?[/quote]And you would and are having it so that your unbelief affects others. Welcome to the world.
[/quote]

Like I said on another thread, my personal subjective beliefs and experiences mean nothing to you, and yours mean nothing to me. The way people can communicate without getting into “NO i’m right” exchanges is logic and reason.

My lack of a belief in God doesnt directly translate to anything that affects anyone else. What I do that affects other people, I have reasons for, which have nothing to do with believing or not believing in god.

976

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Like I said on another thread, my personal subjective beliefs and experiences mean nothing to you, and yours mean nothing to me. The way people can communicate without getting into “NO i’m right” exchanges is logic and reason. >>>[/quote]Is that so? And the evidence I suppose is all over these threads right? All I see is a parade of theistic evidentialists arguing logic and reason with you guys in what amounts to “NO I’m right” exchanges. [quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:]My lack of a belief in God doesnt directly translate to anything that affects anyone else. >>>[/quote] Yes it absolutely does. Or would if you had your way. Your entire belief system is built on the presumption of your own godless autonomy. Everything else flows from that. [quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote: What I do that affects other people, I have reasons for, which have nothing to do with believing or not believing in god. [/quote]Oh… Well bless yer heart. That’s different then, seeins how you have reasons n everything.

977

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:]My lack of a belief in God doesnt directly translate to anything that affects anyone else. >>>[/quote] Yes it absolutely does. Or would if you had your way. Your entire belief system is built on the presumption of your own godless autonomy. Everything else flows from that.
[/quote]
the difference is, in our godless world you are free to follow the “positive” aspects of any religion (not having gay sex, not eating specific foods, not wearing mixed fabrics, meeting and praying, etc. “negative” aspects mean punishing people for actions you find objectionable).

978

This thread is stating to suck

979

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’ll need a citation from a primary source. You find one and I’ve already promised to leave the board.
[/quote]

Um, exactly how am I supposed to provide that? I don’t have access to the primary sources. Did you want me to go to a museum and take some snap shots? Further, most of what is known about the mystery religions comes from second hand sources.

BTW - what exactly do you think I’m supporting? I find the claim that there were different stories circulating about Mithras rather uncontroversial. There were different stories circulating about all religions back then.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
He made comparisons in the sense of the…well, miraculous…in general. He was dealing with the “increduality” of the intended audience. Zeus, a was known to do, got his groove on.
[/quote]

I don’t think that’s accurate - Justin Martyr was trying to put forward the idea that Christianity was not some altogether different religion, at least in his Dialogue with Trypho. In fact, in some places he claims that the pagan religions were ‘imitations’, here’s a bit from the dialogue (Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)):

"CHAPTER LXX – SO ALSO THE MYSTERIES OF MITHRAS ARE DISTORTED FROM THE PROPHECIES OF DANIEL AND ISAIAH.

“And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah’s words? For they contrived that the words of righteousness be quoted also by them. But I must repeat to you the words of Isaiah referred to, in order that from them you may know that these things are so. They are these: ‘Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; those that are near shall know my might. The sinners in Zion are removed; trembling shall seize the impious. Who shall announce to you the everlasting place? The man who walks in righteousness, speaks in the right way, hates sin and unrighteousness, and keeps his hands pure from bribes, stops the ears from hearing the unjust judgment of blood closes the eyes from seeing unrighteousness: he shall dwell in the lofty cave of the strong rock. Bread shall be given to him, and his water[shall be] sure. Ye shall see the King with glory, and your eyes shall look far off. Your soul shall pursue diligently the fear of the Lord. Where is the scribe? where are the counsellors? where is he that numbers those who are nourished,–the small and great people? with whom they did not take counsel, nor knew the depth of the voices, so that they heard not. The people who are become depreciated, and there is no understanding in him who hears.’ Now it is evident, that in this prophecy[allusion is made] to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks. And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord. Moreover, these Scriptures are equally explicit in saying, that those who are reputed to know the writings of the Scriptures, and who hear the prophecies, have no understanding. And when I hear, Trypho,” said I, "that Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited also this. "

Paraphrase: The serpent (satan) copied Jesus’s birth via Perseus.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
“When Acrisius inquired of the oracle how he should get male children, the god said that his daughter would give birth to a son who would kill him.49 Fearing that, Acrisius built a brazen chamber under ground and there guarded Danae.50 However, she was seduced, as some say, by Proetus, whence arose the quarrel between them51; but some say that Zeus had intercourse with her in the shape of a stream of gold which poured through the roof into Danae’s lap. When Acrisius afterwards learned that she had got a child Perseus, he would not believe that she had been seduced by Zeus, and putting his daughter with the child in a chest, he cast it into the sea.”
http://www.theoi.com/...lodorus2.html#4
[/quote]

I have no idea why you quoted this. I was speaking specifically of Justin Martyr. Can you tell me the relevance of this passage?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
No, no way. That just can’t be! Christianity ‘cribbed’ from the hebrew faith?! This I would’ve never known!
[/quote]

:slight_smile:

'Tis true, in fact, I bet you didn’t know this, but the Christians themselves would suggest that “Jesus” was mentioned all throughout the Old Testament.

980

Here’s some more interesting passages from Justin Martyr’s Dialogue:

“Then I repeated the passage from Isaiah which I have already written, adding that, by means of those words, those who presided over the mysteries of Mithras were stirred up by the devil to say that in a place, called among them a cave, they were initiated by him.”