Atheism-o-Phobia Part 3

fath? = belief without evidence

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
That was quick!

This one’s for Tiribulus:

Lines like these. Has anyone ever taken the bait? I realise that sounds unkind, but that’s how it comes across to me.[/quote]Now there you go again =] You don’t pay attention when I speak because you think I’m a lobotomized religious zombie. Or you don’t believe that I really believe what I’m saying or maybe a bit of both.

Nobody can be baited into new life in Christ. It was an honest observation. You’re not the first guy I’ve encountered who was tripping over the most high God in their efforts to deny Him.
[/quote]

[quote]paulo673 wrote:
fath? = belief without evidence >>>[/quote]This is your first post here? A real warrior huh?
Hebrews 11:1,

[quote]Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. >>>[/quote]Anything of ultimate import will forever remain for finite man in the category of “things not seen”. Those so constituted in their creation by God to purposely seek ultimate answers, which does not include everybody, are constrained by definition to faith alone for such answers. Christians have it in the triune God of the bible. Everyone one else has it in themselves. If you actually care what I mean by that. Please look around.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.
[/quote]

And this is a god worthy of my devotion?

No thanks.

lol

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.
[/quote]

And this is a god worthy of my devotion?

No thanks.

lol
[/quote]Indeed he is. Your righteousness, like mine, IS sin and death. That’s the whole point Ephrem. Only Christ can stand in purity before the throne of the Father because He IS God and hence has no sin. I stand before God guiltless clothed in the righteousness of Christ or I would be consumed by His holiness. I live in a constant quest for more perfect obedience because He has freed me to do so and I love Him for it.

His absolute righteousness that I have been given as a free gift in the new birth produces in me thought, word and deed pleasing to Him that I am utterly incapable of in myself.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
From your dawn of consciousness to this very moment your foundational beliefs have not changed one bit. You’re living in the same grave (how’s that for a paradox) and have simply changed suits and caskets a few times.
[/quote]

This is simply not true. Of course, when you hold contradictory beliefs as you do, you can rationalize anything.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What I have explained is that the moment I propound an epistemology reasonably explicable to the finite and sinful intellect of fallen man it will have at that moment become an idol, a false god created in my own image. It would not simply terminate upon the worship of a false god, but one that is itself full of sin AND it would be worshiping myself. An unholy trinity of sin upon sin. >>>
[/quote]

This is you rationalizing away the problem with your epistemology. If this was really your stance - then why do you participate in these threads? It makes no sense since anyone can point out the holes in your worldview.

What’s REALLY odd is that you seem to feel as though you can comment on other people’s worldviews. Plank, speck, eyes and all that.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Now you have to know I’m gonna say “of course you think that”. There are people here claiming the name of Jesus, belonging to a religion that will remain nameless except to say that it’s headquartered in Rome… in the vatican, who will gladly bend over backwards in their attempts to find common ground with you. I will never be one of them.

Until you understand that I am talking about genuine absolute spiritual death and genuine resurrection, whereby men are truly raised and transformed to the uttermost, you will continue to view what I say with cross eyed scorn. This will be as close as I will likely ever get to playing on your field. Assume just for the sake of illustration that the story of Lazarus is true. A days dead rotting corpse was called forth from death to life. He could not hear what anybody said here. He could not see, smell, touch or taste anything of this world until Jesus called him from that grave and told them to unwrap him and let him go.
[/quote]

Condescension and high horse from you aside, the reality is that I do know exactly what you are talking about. You pretend otherwise in an effort of cognitive dissonance.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That is what happens in salvation, being born again from true rotting spiritual death to eternal divine life. There is no common paradigm in which we can mutually discuss logic and evidence despite what so many even true Christians believe. It is not an intellectual exercise won or lost by strength of persuasion. It is a supernatural resurrection from death to life.

There is at least one man here who I think I consider a brother who is telling me that I am not only wasting God’s time, but possibly dishonoring His name by continuing discourse with you guys especially in this thread. I hope he is not correct, but that is my responsibility, not yours.
[/quote]

Are you trying to convince me of this or yourself?

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
Pangloss,

I don’t mean to state that the fundamental difference in the workings of the mind of an atheist and the mind of a believer fall within some sort of antiquated scale like IQ. My position is that the science of understanding and/or categorizing intelligence is not even past the birthing stage, and that we cannot honestly draw serious conclusions about what regulates it.

It could be largely the result of the traditional, deterministic, genetic model… it could be largely epigenetic. It could be a varying combination of the two. I’m not sure that anyone has a firm handle on this.

[/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This all applies to me too. [/quote]

See, this is what I don’t get - how you can actually feel confident in claiming to know any of this. Seems to me that it’s monumentally arrogant. You first claim that we are all pig-ignorant - that we are all blinded by sin. Then you claim because of some stroke of luck, that you (and your fellow believers) are able to discern the truth.

I say luck because you haven’t accounted for it.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.
[/quote]

And this is a god worthy of my devotion?

No thanks.

lol
[/quote]

Actually the position that it’s worthless to an omnipotent and omniscient being who created everything in accordance to his plan…um…needs a bit of justification, IMO.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.
[/quote]

And this is a god worthy of my devotion?

No thanks.

lol
[/quote]Indeed he is. Your righteousness, like mine, IS sin and death. That’s the whole point Ephrem. Only Christ can stand in purity before the throne of the Father because He IS God and hence has no sin. I stand before God guiltless clothed in the righteousness of Christ or I would be consumed by His holiness. I live in a constant quest for more perfect obedience because He has freed me to do so and I love Him for it.

His absolute righteousness that I have been given as a free gift in the new birth produces in me thought, word and deed pleasing to Him that I am utterly incapable of in myself.
[/quote]

Good for you.

If i die tomorrow, and all the crap you’re spouting turns out to be true i’ll tell him [before he throws me in the pit obviously] about you and that you did your best.

Your god made me a too big a cynic i guess. No doubt he’ll hold that against me (:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Everything i do and everything i say, no matter how sincere or how much good it does, is worthless to you. >>>[/quote]No, it’s worthless to God. That’s what matters.
[/quote]

And this is a god worthy of my devotion?

No thanks.

lol
[/quote]

Actually the position that it’s worthless to an omnipotent and omniscient being who created everything in accordance to his plan…um…needs a bit of justification, IMO.[/quote]

It’s pretty convoluted: there’s omniscience but also free will, and a divine plan but we can deviate from that plan somehow, but thenagain: he does work in mysterious ways.

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This all applies to me too. [/quote]

See, this is what I don’t get - how you can actually feel confident in claiming to know any of this. Seems to me that it’s monumentally arrogant. You first claim that we are all pig-ignorant - that we are all blinded by sin. Then you claim because of some stroke of luck, that you (and your fellow believers) are able to discern the truth.

I say luck because you haven’t accounted for it.[/quote]Ephesians 1:3-9 NASB:

[quote]<<< 3-Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4-just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5-He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6-to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7-In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8-which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9-He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him >>>[/quote]I was dead. He raised me. Blind. Now I see. Deaf. Now I hear. Though surrounded with and created as His revelation, and plainly knowing it everywhere, I lived in stiffnecked rebellion against Him and for myself.

HE raised ME. HE freed ME. I wasn’t seeking Him. I did not ask to be saved from anything before that night in Phoenix 26 years ago. Though my life had been a disaster, I thought I had myself on a much improved path. He came to ME. HE sent that man TO ME. NOW, having been raised purely and entirely by the sovereign grace of an unspeakably merciful and loving God, that accounts for everything I say. New and eternal life. I am commanded to tell you. How you respond is outta my hands. I promise you I intend no arrogance and believe myself superior to no one. If you only knew.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< It’s pretty convoluted: there’s omniscience but also free will, and a divine plan but we can deviate from that plan somehow, but then again: he does work in mysterious ways.
[/quote]Oh no. You cannot deviate from His divine decrees by the firing of even one synapse or contraction of even one muscle fiber. (fast or slow twitch =] )

You and I will freely choose exactly what He has decreed. All dead. He will raise some. His choice of who and by what means. Bar or dumbbells from all eternity. No idea of the exact mechanism by which that is accomplished and I don’t really care. I just know that it IS and that my every victory is already won.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ephesians 1:3-9 NASB:
[/quote]

Humorous - I believe Van Til would consider this viciously circular. I mean, how do you justify the idea that Ephesian’s is truly a revelation from God?

Remember, you can’t use reason to justify it - since we are all blinded by sin.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I was dead. He raised me. Blind. Now I see. Deaf. Now I hear. Though surrounded with and created as His revelation, and plainly knowing it everywhere, I lived in stiffnecked rebellion against Him and for myself.
[/quote]

How do you know what you are ‘seeing’, ‘hearing’, ‘etc’ are actually genuine?

After all, Mormon’s could claim the exact same thing. By your standards, they are rationally justified to do so.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
HE raised ME. HE freed ME. I wasn’t seeking Him. I did not ask to be saved from anything before that night in Phoenix 26 years ago. Though my life had been a disaster, I thought I had myself on a much improved path. He came to ME. HE sent that man TO ME. NOW, having been raised purely and entirely by the sovereign grace of an unspeakably merciful and loving God, that accounts for everything I say. New and eternal life. I am commanded to tell you. How you respond is outta my hands. I promise you I intend no arrogance and believe myself superior to no one. If you only knew.
[/quote]

You say this, but you can’t really know this any better then the person who claims that Krishna has shown them the path to enlightenment. Your claims are no better then theirs - in fact, they are a bit worse, since your worldview contains a contradiction, making it incoherent.

At the end of the day, you can claim you aren’t being arrogant or superior, but that’s exactly what you are doing. You should just say that you believe Christianity because it’s absurd. I’d respect that. Right now this ‘inner witness’ of God is coming off like the lady who drowned her children because God told her their souls were possessed by Satan.

She has the exact same justification for her beliefs as you do. What boggles my mind is that this doesn’t frighten you at all. In fact, from all appearances, it doesn’t even BOTHER you.

I believe you have misunderstood Van Til, myself and the Word of God. Not only does my faith not bother me, it’s the most beautiful, meaningful, awe inspiring, plainly self evident fact there is and the reason I open my eyes in the morning. Here’s a Christmas message for ya from this morning.

http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Brooks_Immanuel.mp3

Ephrem loves this guy.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This all applies to me too. [/quote]

See, this is what I don’t get - how you can actually feel confident in claiming to know any of this. Seems to me that it’s monumentally arrogant. You first claim that we are all pig-ignorant - that we are all blinded by sin. Then you claim because of some stroke of luck, that you (and your fellow believers) are able to discern the truth.

I say luck because you haven’t accounted for it.[/quote]Ephesians 1:3-9 NASB:

[quote]<<< 3-Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4-just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5-He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6-to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7-In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8-which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9-He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him >>>[/quote]I was dead. He raised me. Blind. Now I see. Deaf. Now I hear. Though surrounded with and created as His revelation, and plainly knowing it everywhere, I lived in stiffnecked rebellion against Him and for myself.

HE raised ME. HE freed ME. I wasn’t seeking Him. I did not ask to be saved from anything before that night in Phoenix 26 years ago. Though my life had been a disaster, I thought I had myself on a much improved path. He came to ME. HE sent that man TO ME. NOW, having been raised purely and entirely by the sovereign grace of an unspeakably merciful and loving God, that accounts for everything I say. New and eternal life. I am commanded to tell you. How you respond is outta my hands. I promise you I intend no arrogance and believe myself superior to no one. If you only knew.
[/quote]

Arrogance.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I believe you have misunderstood Van Til, myself and the Word of God. Not only does my faith not bother me, it’s the most beautiful, meaningful, awe inspiring, plainly self evident fact there is and the reason I open my eyes in the morning. Here’s a Christmas message for ya from this morning.

http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Brooks_Immanuel.mp3

Ephrem loves this guy.[/quote]

I don’t think I’ve misunderstood at all. You truly believe. Just like that lady who drowned her kids. Just like Mormons who believe they have an inner witness of God.

The trouble is, none of those beliefs (including yours) are rational in the slightest. In fairness to those other crazy beliefs, I can’t just throw away my ability to reason because you are convinced. I would say that you shouldn’t either, but it’s apparent that you have.

I’m not sure what benefit there is to continuing this conversation.

I’m am still kind of curious how you can disagree with other Christians with their position. It seems like you have no rational basis to do so.

[quote]Pangloss wrote:
<<< I’m not sure what benefit there is to continuing this conversation. >>>[/quote]Me either, but that’s ok. I’ll still like you and maybe we can talk at a later time.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
This all applies to me too. [/quote]

See, this is what I don’t get - how you can actually feel confident in claiming to know any of this. Seems to me that it’s monumentally arrogant. You first claim that we are all pig-ignorant - that we are all blinded by sin. Then you claim because of some stroke of luck, that you (and your fellow believers) are able to discern the truth.

I say luck because you haven’t accounted for it.[/quote]Ephesians 1:3-9 NASB:

[quote]<<< 3-Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4-just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5-He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6-to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7-In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8-which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9-He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him >>>[/quote]I was dead. He raised me. Blind. Now I see. Deaf. Now I hear. Though surrounded with and created as His revelation, and plainly knowing it everywhere, I lived in stiffnecked rebellion against Him and for myself.

HE raised ME. HE freed ME. I wasn’t seeking Him. I did not ask to be saved from anything before that night in Phoenix 26 years ago. Though my life had been a disaster, I thought I had myself on a much improved path. He came to ME. HE sent that man TO ME. NOW, having been raised purely and entirely by the sovereign grace of an unspeakably merciful and loving God, that accounts for everything I say. New and eternal life. I am commanded to tell you. How you respond is outta my hands. I promise you I intend no arrogance and believe myself superior to no one. If you only knew.
[/quote]

Arrogance.[/quote]

You are the epitome of arrogance you little punk. Posting all over the place that there’s no God. If that isn’t arrogance then I don’t know what is. You can’t even figure out your own life and you’re pontificating that there’s no God (shakes head) what a little intellectual runt you are.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You are the epitome of arrogance you little punk. Posting all over the place that there’s no God. If that isn’t arrogance then I don’t know what is. You can’t even figure out your own life and you’re pontificating that there’s no God (shakes head) what a little intellectual runt you are.[/quote]

I’ve figured my own life out just fine thanks. I also say I don’t know if there is a God. I know that if there is one like your fairy tale books describe, then He is not worthy of worship or recognition.

But if that makes you mad old man, that’s just icing on the cake.