[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sociologists and Psychologists have shown us that when we want something we will create reasons, or rationalize our actions in order to affirm it ourselves.[/quote]
Exactly.
We all want to live forever. We all want to see our loved ones again after they die.
So we create religion, which is the ultimate example of wishful thinking.
-Jake
[quote]jwillow wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sociologists and Psychologists have shown us that when we want something we will create reasons, or rationalize our actions in order to affirm it ourselves.[/quote]
Exactly.
We all want to live forever. We all want to see our loved ones again after they die.
So we create religion, which is the ultimate example of wishful thinking.
-Jake
[/quote]
…and when someone WANTS to have sex with another male, as forlife does, he in fact runs away from a religion that said he could not do it. Not complicated, not at all. And it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t actually believe his new found “religion”.
What I love about atheists is their pure arrogance in attempting to separate themselves from other human beings who are JUST LIKE THEM.
“I’m soooo smart you see I’m an atheist I’ve figured out this religion business as it never really suited my needs. I have rationalized everything for you- You little peon you are so beneath me…here let me educate you while I spill my hate of religion all over the place.”
You really are obsessed with this gay sex-thing, aren’t you Zeb?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pookie wrote:
Just thought I’d say hi while I’m here.
[/quote]
Hey! Are you staying?[/quote]
I dunno. Probably not.
Read a few of the threads, and I can’t seem to find a single one that really interests me. Maybe I’m jaded. Lots (most?) of the interesting regulars from “the other side” (right-wing/religious) of many arguments seem to have disappeared.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
You can crow all you want about my biases,[/quote]
I will because those biases dictated your eventual path. And I think you even admitted this to me (and others) in one of our many threads.
I certainly will and bias leads to sin (I know you know that much). I acknowledge that I am a sinner and unworthy of entering the kingdom of heaven if not for accepting Jesus Christ as my savior because of his great sacrifice on the cross.
Funny you would use that terminology as the spiritually blind will never see the kingdom of heaven.
[quote]If you want to show some integrity,
[/quote]
This is strange talk coming from a man who left his wife and two young children.[/quote]
It is quite clear when reading forlife’s posts that he’s highly intelligent, and that his sexual orientation doesn’t have anything to do with his disbelief.[/quote]
What you’re saying flies in the face of everything that science has shown us. Sociologists and Psychologists have shown us that when we want something we will create reasons, or rationalize our actions in order to affirm it ourselves. In other words, “I am right, it’s religion that’s wrong”. So forlife can say whatever he likes, science must prevail - right?
Or did he? Do you have proof of this? As far as I know there is no SCIENCE to back up this assertion.
Good question, “choosing to be gay” is just another lie from the politically correct left. No one chooses to be gay however there may be circumstances which create this same sex attraction. Clearly there is no hard science which clearly demonstrates that it is genetic. SO you tell me, your guess is as good as mine.
[/quote]
Do you remember the day that you decide to become heterosexual? Or did you sort of … always know? What circumstances might create same sex attraction? Also, do you think there’s anything wrong with same sex attraction?
Guys, don’t let him divert the thread further by feeding his homophobic agenda. I sometimes wonder if Zeb is a closeted gay himself, with his obsession on the subject no matter what else is being talked about at the time. Zeb, feel free to create another gay hating thread if you want, but please leave this one alone.
So…Tiribulus. If you believe that there is no free will, and god ultimately decides who to save and who to damn, why would your god even create people to be damned? I don’t get it. Why not either save everyone, or at least only create people that you know in advance you are going to save?
On confirmatory bias, I agree that every single one of us is subject to it. The best you can do is educate yourself on it, earnestly try to see it in your own processing, and most importantly use scienctific tools to independently and reliably confirm whether or not your beliefs really are true.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
You really are obsessed with this gay sex-thing, aren’t you Zeb?[/quote]
Not at all, but that happens to be forlife’s driving psychological motivator for his belief system. The church did not accept it so he bolted. His is more obvious than the rest of us. With someone else it might be that they have a family and are faithful to their wife, hence they check in with the family values as it fits their perception of the world around them and how it should be. You and I are no different than forlife who is no different than every other living breathing human being.
I think this thread I II and now III has been a cluster of nonsense. Posters pontificating endlessly about this theory and that theory. It’s really all for nothing. Show me how a man likes to spend his time and his lifestyle and I’ll guess about 90% of the time if he believes in God if he attends church etc.
Most on this thread made claim that they act a certain way because they believe in certain things and they have that exactly opposite. They believe in certain things BECAUSE they act in a certain way.
If this is too much for your delicate psyche to handle let me know.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Do you remember the day that you decide to become heterosexual? Or did you sort of … always know? What circumstances might create same sex attraction? Also, do you think there’s anything wrong with same sex attraction?[/quote]
You are doing no more than singing the same old politically correct liberal mantra. It goes something like this “We don’t CHOOSE to be this way, we just are.” And then onto your other nonsense. “Do you remember the day you chose to be a heterosexual.” LOL this is classic stuff.
I’ll ask you once more and don’t post back on this topic unless you can answer me as I’ve asked you now twice. Where is the conclusive proof that homosexuality is genetic?
There is evidence to demonstrate that homosexuality is more nurture than nature. There have been many studies which conclude that there is a set of circumstances, the perfect storm if you will, which when it takes place a male is more apt to become a homosexual. With that said they still don’t CHOOSE to become homosexual, it’s more like circumstances have chosen them.
But let’s get back to the important part of the thread. All of this has been studied and discussed. But you actually have to speak to the non politically correct and go outside the typical university system to actually keep up with it. I don’t fault you anymore than I’d fault a child who has been raised on a horrible diet. But at some point you have to refuse to eat the lousy food (in this case poor information) and actually search outside the politically correct box. And then when you find the truth you have to be ready to be derided for your response to questions such as what you’ve asked me.
With all of this said I do not think that homosexual’s deserve to be discriminated against in any way. As for the most part like the rest of us they grew up in a certain environment, and they’re a product of that environment.
Now let’s move on with the thread, unless you want to continue to beat a dead horse. If you do you can PM me as I have plenty of data to back up my position.
Thanks.
Zeb
[quote]forlife wrote:
Guys, don’t let him divert the thread further by feeding his homophobic agenda.[/quote]
Better we feed your Godophobic agenda. Whenever someone has a theory that runs opposite to the politically correct think tank they’re labeld “homophobe”. Funny I don’t ever recall being afraid of a homosexual, but that’s not important. What is important is that I become isolated for my position. And it teaches others who may want to think for themselves that it is not a good idea — get back in line!
More accusations and attempted punishment for stepping out and having an opinion that runs contrary to the politically correct view point. Well, at least you’re always predictable forlife. I’ve debated you for hundreds of pages on this topic and I fully understand the politically correct play book. And you my friend have it memorized.
Zeb,
just out of curiosity,
do you think the same about bisexuality or is there some differences in your opinion ?
[quote]kamui wrote:
Zeb,
just out of curiosity,
do you think the same about bisexuality or is there some differences in your opinion ?
[/quote]
Here is one you’re probably not aware of: Over 80% of so called homosexual men have had or continue to have sex with women.
Now why don’t you explain that one to me as we further drift off course.
Again, Zeb…if my true motivation for leaving my faith had been my sexual orientation, I easily could have found another faith that accepts gays. I don’t deny that some people do leave their faith for that reason. I know some of them, and they are now perfectly happy in another church that embraces who they are. I’m just not one of them. As I’ve said over and over again, even if my former church were to accept gays, I could never in good conscience return to it.
You admit to being subject to confirmatory bias yourself, but I don’t think you really believe it. You are 100% convinced that your god is real, and nobody will ever change your mind. The difference between you and me is that I understand science is an objective method for independently confirming the truth of a hypothesis, and as such is a more reliable gauge than one’s personal beliefs.
[quote]Here is one you’re probably not aware of: Over 80% of so called homosexual men have had or continue to have sex with women.
i’m perfectly aware of that.
but to have had sex with women and to continue to have sex with women are two different things.
and… that doesn’t answer my question.
also, you don’t need to be so defensive.
don’t forget that i rarely agree with my fellow atheists on most topics.
this one is not an exception.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You don’t pay attention when I speak because you think I’m a lobotomized religious zombie. [/quote]
Nah, not a zombie. At most he thinks you’re biologically predisposed to religious faith. An orienation, rather. Of course not every religion has the same theology and answers, so Christianity (or, specifically, Calvinism?) is what actually suits your behavior, characteristics, phenotype, whatever, the best.
Now, of course that would make him a Christianphobe. A closeted Christian in self-denial. Or is it a true biologically predisposed rejection of Christian/religious belief? Of faith in general? But then, I have to wonder if aversion to [fill in blank]phobia is seen as another predisposition. Or, or, it could be [fill in blank]phobe-phobia. You know, where a person is phobic of [fill in blank]phobes.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Again, Zeb…if my true motivation for leaving my faith had been my sexual orientation, I easily could have found another faith that accepts gays. I don’t deny that some people do leave their faith for that reason. I know some of them, and they are now perfectly happy in another church that embraces who they are. I’m just not one of them. As I’ve said over and over again, even if my former church were to accept gays, I could never in good conscience return to it.[/quote]
This is not necessarily true. You did a complete 100% turn, someone else might not feel as strongly and move to a church that accepts homosexuals. It’s still the same motivation. Also, I don’t want you to think that I’m questioning your sincerity in this matter, I’m not. We are all sincerely searching out the truth as we know it. You feel that you’ve found it. What I’m saying is that we all act in a way that will ultimately affirm our own likes and dislikes, and we really believe what we are telling ourselves. That doesn’t discount ultimate truth, but I hope it allows for a better understanding of why we do what we do.
That’s what affirmation is all about. And I want to add that I’m shocked that you don’t understand this. You believe that there is no God just as I believe that there is a God. Tell me the difference? You think the difference is that I cannot conclusively prove that there is a God? That’s funny and you know why. The very essence of Christianity is a word called “faith”. It has been stated and restated in the Bible that faith is the ultimate conquest for those of us who call ourselves Christians.
And the really funny part about you (and a few others on this thread) is that you have the exact same faith that there is no God. And you go about these threads like street corner preachers who turn people away from Christianity just as you do atheism.
No, the difference between you and me (one of them anyway) is that you don’t really understand how human beings think and I do.
[quote]kamui wrote:
Here is one you’re probably not aware of: Over 80% of so called homosexual men have had or continue to have sex with women.
i’m perfectly aware of that.
but to have had sex with women and to continue to have sex with women are two different things.
and… that doesn’t answer my question.
also, you don’t need to be so defensive.
don’t forget that i rarely agree with my fellow atheists on most topics.
this one is not an exception.
[/quote]
The written word does not communicate emotions very well. I’m not being the least bit defensive. To your point, how many heterosexual men have sex with other men on a semi-regular basis? And don’t use the prison example as “homosexual” men who have sex with women are not in prison.
There are many problems with the homosexual model as depicted in politically correct literature this is only one.
Better we spend out time on the topic of the thread. Please PM me if you want to carry this onward, as I’d be glad to but not here.
Zeb
[quote]ZEB wrote:
No, the difference between you and me (one of them anyway) is that you don’t really understand how human beings think and I do.[/quote]
Since you really understand how thinking works, any plans on doing some of it yourself eventually?
indeed.
sound reasonable.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Again, Zeb…if my true motivation for leaving my faith had been my sexual orientation, I easily could have found another faith that accepts gays. I don’t deny that some people do leave their faith for that reason. I know some of them, and they are now perfectly happy in another church that embraces who they are. I’m just not one of them. As I’ve said over and over again, even if my former church were to accept gays, I could never in good conscience return to it.[/quote]
This is not necessarily true. You did a complete 100% turn, someone else might not feel as strongly and move to a church that accepts homosexuals. It’s still the same motivation. Also, I don’t want you to think that I’m questioning your sincerity in this matter, I’m not. We are all sincerely searching out the truth as we know it. You feel that you’ve found it. What I’m saying is that we all act in a way that will ultimately affirm our own likes and dislikes, and we really believe what we are telling ourselves. That doesn’t discount ultimate truth, but I hope it allows for a better understanding of why we do what we do.
That’s what affirmation is all about. And I want to add that I’m shocked that you don’t understand this. You believe that there is no God just as I believe that there is a God. Tell me the difference? You think the difference is that I cannot conclusively prove that there is a God? That’s funny and you know why. The very essence of Christianity is a word called “faith”. It has been stated and restated in the Bible that faith is the ultimate conquest for those of us who call ourselves Christians.
And the really funny part about you (and a few others on this thread) is that you have the exact same faith that there is no God. And you go about these threads like street corner preachers who turn people away from Christianity just as you do atheism.
No, the difference between you and me (one of them anyway) is that you don’t really understand how human beings think and I do.[/quote]
Wrong on all 3 counts:
There’s no reason to leave god behind entirely if your only motivation is to find acceptance for your sexual orientation. Obviously, had that been my motivation, I would have retained my belief in god and found a faith that accepted gays as equals. Many do just that, I’m just not one of them. Here’s something you don’t know about me. After doing my research on both sides of the argument, I decided there might be others out there who are similarly seeking the truth, and published my research with citations on a website. I say nothing about my sexual orientation on the site, and only offer the strongest arguments both for and against my faith. I leave it to the reader to draw his own conclusions. To date, I’ve had over 50,000 hits just on the main page and have received hundreds of emails, most of them expressing appreciation for my fairness in presenting both sides. I doubt any of that will convince you, and frankly I don’t care what you think about my motivations. I’m only responding in defense of my reputation, because there are others on this board whose opinions I do respect. Feel free to continue attacking my character, but that’s all I’m going to say on this.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said I know there is no god. It’s impossible to prove a negative, which is why I’m an agnostic rather than an atheist. The difference between us is that I choose to withhold judgment, instead of claiming things are true without reliable evidence to support my claims. Faith is nothing more than an excuse for believing in something for which there is no actual evidence, which is why so many people of faith directly contradict one another in their beliefs, despite being equally convinced that their faith is the true one.
I got a chuckle out of your claim to know so much more about how human beings think than I do. I guess you didn’t realize my Ph.D. is in psychology? In a sense you’re right though…the best lesson of my Ph.D. was realizing how little I really know. Maybe you could go back to grad school and join me in ignorance? 
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
“religion nor atheism will in itself lead to monstrous acts, but they can both be used as an legitimation by people who commit horrible acts, but that thus not say anything about the supposedly evil within religion or atheism.”
Well I agree with that for sure.
I am comfortable enough knowing that God exists through my emotions, my mind, my inner being and I do not need concrete evidence to find this truth. Again I don’t have any disrespect to someone with a disagreeing opinion, I just have my faith and it will always be with me. And what’s nice is that science and God go together more often than not.[/quote]
Might I ask if you believe in an interfering god, or one that exists but doesn’t particularly care if you go via christ or mohammed or any of the other religions that have come and gone?
In other words, are you a god-but-not-religion type of guy? Or do you sign the dotted line of a particular belief system?[/quote]
What is you definition of religious?
Do I attend church and read the bible on a regular basis? No
Do I believe in God and Jesus Christ? Yes
Why? Because of the miracles I see everyday in a world full of much distraction and hate. It’s not the big things that reaffirm my belief in God, it’s the little bit of goodness I see in people including myself, the beauty nature brings, and the intellect I have come to possess. There have been a few times in my life where I have truly felt God’s presence, and he has been with me through some difficult times. Life is just a test, there will always be outside influences that will make you question your way of life and those influences can either be used to reinforce you beliefs or break them.
Things are as they are, you just need to be.