Atheism-o-Phobia Part 3

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
541

[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife,

You’ve made the same error on this thread as you have in past threads. On past threads you told me it was impossible for you to remain a heterosexual. I then pointed out study after study loaded with personal experiences which prove that reparative therapy has worked for many people. Remember what you said? someting on the order that your personal experience has showed you that it was impossible. And that every other person who did claim conversion was a LIAR!

It looks like you’re doing the same thing regarding faith on this thread - If your personal experience doesn’t prove to you (emotionally) that there is a God, then in your opinion there is no God. What a classic case of projection.

You’re a walking case study of someone who sees the world through blinders and a very narrow mind.
[/quote]

More misrepresentations of my position? Actually, what I said was that most people cannot change their sexual orientation, but that people who are moderate on the Kinsey scale can show more variation. More importantly, I provided definitive quotes from every major medical and mental health organization confirming my position, rather than asking people to rely on my personal experience.

In contrast, you blindly ignore the conclusions of every major health organization, because they don’t conform with your religious beliefs about homosexuality.

I’m not going to discuss sexual orientation further in this thread…feel free to create another thread on it if you want. I’ll be happy to provide the quotes for you from the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of Social Workers, the Surgeon General, etc. I know they’re all ignorant and biased because they disagree with your personal interpretation of your holy book, but hey, maybe somebody out there might care about the actual facts.

The same is true in religious discussions. You are so convinced that you are right that you feel empowered to pass judgment on everyone else, to the point of arrogantly insisting that you know the intimate details of a person’s life better than they do themselves.

Step right up, folks…the Amazing Zeb Show is about to begin! :slight_smile:

542

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Take some consolation in knowing that at least you are wise enough to recognize how little you actually know. Zeb hasn’t reached that point yet, and by all indications he never will. [/quote]

Look in the mirror you’ve just described yourself. You go from spiritual thread to spiritual thread denouncing the existence of God…as if YOU know! You are as lost and pathetic today as the first day you wondered on to the forum bragging about being gay.

Go away man.

[/quote]

I’ve never denounced the existence of a god. I’ve denounced believing in gods for which there is no evidence.

You’re the one insisting that you know the truth, and everyone else is a fool because they don’t share your belief, despite having no evidence for that belief.

Maybe some day you’ll have Fletch’s wisdom to recognize how little we actually know. Until then, you might want to tone down trumpeting your own horn, based on being so much older and “wiser” than him.[/quote]

You don’t get it forlife. You are the one who is trumpeting your own experience as being relevant to others. As I explained in the above post. If YOU don’t have the experience then YOU chastise others for actually having that experience. In other words if it didn’t happen to you then it cannot happen to anyone else. If that is not a good definition for narrow mindedness I don’t know what is.
[/quote]

To the contrary, I’ve said that I don’t judge anyone for having a deep personal belief in god, because I’ve been there myself. I understand how meaningful it can be. I’m just sharing the thought process that caused me to take a step back from it all…if people don’t understand or relate to it, that’s ok. They are probably where they should be, at least for now. Some never will step back, and as long as they’re happy and don’t project their beliefs onto the rights of others, I’m ok with that too.

543

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

Because I could experience and scrutinize my own.[/quote]

And you think you’re immune to the same deep subconscious desires that drive the beliefs of others…why?

544

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

i know this answer won’t satisfy you but anyway :

people don’t believe in a God because he is “real”, but because he is God.
then and only then, he is real because he is God.

your limited definition of “reality” make you ask wrong questions, and prevent you to understand the answers.
[/quote]

You’re right, it doesn’t satisfy me :slight_smile:

Either god is an actual supernatural being, or he/she/it is fictional. A fictional idea can still motivate, inspire, and direct people who claim it is real rather than fictional, but this is a dangerous path. I don’t believe it is desirable or necessary for people to lie to themselves in order to contribute to the welfare of mankind. To the contrary, lies obfuscate and sometimes directly interfere with that mission.

This is where actual facts become important, and where faith falls short.

Either a person’s god actually created the universe or he didn’t.

Either their god actually watches over and protects believers or he doesn’t.

Either their god will judge and bless/condemn men, or he won’t.

Either our identities continue after death, or they don’t.

All of these are questions of FACT that don’t depend in the slightest on faith. The universe doesn’t care what people believe; either these things are real, or they are stories people tell themselves to feel better about their lives. And without evidence, claiming these things are true based on faith alone means absolutely nothing. [/quote]

How do you determine what that mission is and how do you find meaning and purpose behind it without some kind of faith?

545

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
you refuse to acknowledge that all these other people are getting revelations?[/quote]

Didn’t realize you believed in revelations.[/quote]

I don’t. [/quote]

Then[/quote]

Ah, I see.

546

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

Because I could experience and scrutinize my own.[/quote]

And you think you’re immune to the same deep subconscious desires that drive the beliefs of others…why?[/quote]

Have you experienced others’ revelations?

547

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

and[/quote]

Ah, fascinating. Do go on.

548

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

and[/quote]

Ah, fascinating. Do go on.[/quote]

Go back to WoW, troll!

549

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

and[/quote]

Ah, fascinating. Do go on.[/quote]

to[/quote]

Exactly.

550

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

i know this answer won’t satisfy you but anyway :

people don’t believe in a God because he is “real”, but because he is God.
then and only then, he is real because he is God.

your limited definition of “reality” make you ask wrong questions, and prevent you to understand the answers.
[/quote]

You’re right, it doesn’t satisfy me :slight_smile:

Either god is an actual supernatural being, or he/she/it is fictional. A fictional idea can still motivate, inspire, and direct people who claim it is real rather than fictional, but this is a dangerous path. I don’t believe it is desirable or necessary for people to lie to themselves in order to contribute to the welfare of mankind. To the contrary, lies obfuscate and sometimes directly interfere with that mission.

This is where actual facts become important, and where faith falls short.

Either a person’s god actually created the universe or he didn’t.

Either their god actually watches over and protects believers or he doesn’t.

Either their god will judge and bless/condemn men, or he won’t.

Either our identities continue after death, or they don’t.

All of these are questions of FACT that don’t depend in the slightest on faith. The universe doesn’t care what people believe; either these things are real, or they are stories people tell themselves to feel better about their lives. And without evidence, claiming these things are true based on faith alone means absolutely nothing. [/quote]

How do you determine what that mission is and how do you find meaning and purpose behind it without some kind of faith?[/quote]

Meaning and purpose aren’t about FACTS, they are about VALUES. Values should be informed by facts where facts are available, but they can never be reduced to facts. Science can help us determine what is actually true, but science has nothing to say on what our values should be.

Fortunately, you don’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to value love, integrity, and courage. There are many atheists/agnostics who demonstrate these values more fervently and more consistently than many believers. Of course, there are many believers who also demonstrate these values. The point is that the values themselves are independent of a person’s belief/disbelief in a supernatural being.

551

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
How do you know you aren’t misled yourself?[/quote]

Because I could experience and scrutinize my own.[/quote]

And you think you’re immune to the same deep subconscious desires that drive the beliefs of others…why?[/quote]

Have you experienced others’ revelations?[/quote]

No, I’m just encouraging you to be consistent. If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you, even if they contradict your own beliefs.

As a psychologist, I do understand the powerful and insidious influence the subconscious mind can have on our beliefs and experiences, which is why I question everything. It proved to be true with my own spiritual experiences, and since all of us are human beings, it can prove to be true for you too.

Insisting that you KNOW that there is a god who created the universe, that we live on after death, etc. is a sure sign that these subconscious influences are at work. Admitting your ignorance is a good first step toward protecting yourself.

552

[quote]forlife wrote:
Meaning and purpose aren’t about FACTS, they are about VALUES…science has nothing to say on what our values should be.
[/quote]

Then, in the materialistic view, nothing can say what our values SHOULD be, as all values are equally valid.

553

[quote]forlife wrote:
If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you…[/quote]

But I haven’t tried to…

554

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you…[/quote]

But I haven’t tried to…[/quote]

Then how do you explain that their divine communication directly contradicts your own? Burying your head in the sand doesn’t make the logical conflict go away.

How about addressing my point on the powerful influence of the subconscious mind on how we view the world? Do you acknowledge this, rather than a divine source, could be the reason for your experiences?

At the time, I answered a resounding NO to that question. I’m guessing you probably will too.

555

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

i know this answer won’t satisfy you but anyway :

people don’t believe in a God because he is “real”, but because he is God.
then and only then, he is real because he is God.

your limited definition of “reality” make you ask wrong questions, and prevent you to understand the answers.
[/quote]

You’re right, it doesn’t satisfy me :slight_smile:

Either god is an actual supernatural being, or he/she/it is fictional. A fictional idea can still motivate, inspire, and direct people who claim it is real rather than fictional, but this is a dangerous path. I don’t believe it is desirable or necessary for people to lie to themselves in order to contribute to the welfare of mankind. To the contrary, lies obfuscate and sometimes directly interfere with that mission.

This is where actual facts become important, and where faith falls short.

Either a person’s god actually created the universe or he didn’t.

Either their god actually watches over and protects believers or he doesn’t.

Either their god will judge and bless/condemn men, or he won’t.

Either our identities continue after death, or they don’t.

All of these are questions of FACT that don’t depend in the slightest on faith. The universe doesn’t care what people believe; either these things are real, or they are stories people tell themselves to feel better about their lives. And without evidence, claiming these things are true based on faith alone means absolutely nothing. [/quote]

How do you determine what that mission is and how do you find meaning and purpose behind it without some kind of faith?[/quote]

Meaning and purpose aren’t about FACTS, they are about VALUES. Values should be informed by facts where facts are available, but they can never be reduced to facts. Science can help us determine what is actually true, but science has nothing to say on what our values should be.

Fortunately, you don’t need to believe in a supernatural being in order to value love, integrity, and courage. There are many atheists/agnostics who demonstrate these values more fervently and more consistently than many believers. Of course, there are many believers who also demonstrate these values. The point is that the values themselves are independent of a person’s belief/disbelief in a supernatural being.[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong. So you’re saying you believe certain values are ‘good’ in and of themselves. How do you determine what good values are and what bad values are? Are they determined by mankind in your view? Is the knowledge of this innate in each person? Or is it something else?

556

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you…[/quote]

But I haven’t tried to…[/quote]

Then how do you explain that their divine communication directly contradicts your own? Burying your head in the sand doesn’t make the logical conflict go away.

[/quote]

I don’t know that they had a ‘divine communication’ or if they chose to rebel from it. I know mine. You’re projecting YOUR experience and drawing conclusions as to what has happened with every single other person. I’m not.

557

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Meaning and purpose aren’t about FACTS, they are about VALUES…science has nothing to say on what our values should be.
[/quote]

Then, in[/quote]

No, I disagree with this.

558

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you…[/quote]

to…[/quote]

Perhaps. But not quite.

559

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
So you’re saying you believe certain values are ‘good’ in and of themselves[/quote]

No, he can’t be.

560

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If I can’t disprove the divinity of their revelations, neither can you…[/quote]

But I haven’t tried to…[/quote]

Then how do you explain that their divine communication directly contradicts your own? Burying your head in the sand doesn’t make the logical conflict go away.

[/quote]

experience[/quote]

Potentially.