weird post
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
Also- what is the Jewish view on adam and eves ejection from eden
Also, also - do you have any thoughts on why G-d has changed his method of ‘dealing’ with humans over the millennia? I have heard some very intriguing thoughts on it, I was just wondering what your view on it may be.
Thanks!
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
Also- what is the Jewish view on adam and eves ejection from eden
[/quote]
I am not JB, but try Genesis 4:5-7.
[quote]
Also, also - do you have any thoughts on why G-d has changed his method of ‘dealing’ with humans over the millennia? I have heard some very intriguing thoughts on it, I was just wondering what your view on it may be.
Thanks![/quote]
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I will be happy to answer questions about Judaism. Answers will be Orthodox to the best of my ability. I don’t pretend to be a religious scholar.
I am not a Rabbi, although I am what is called a “Kohanim.”
I am a soldier turned engineer turned lawyer and businessman who happens to have been born and raised in Israel and was born in (what would be called in the USA) a “Modern Orthodox” family, went to Yeshiva in Israel, and have been a member of various Hasidic shuls for decades, which I joined because my first wife (and second wife) were Hasidic.
Note, in order to keep this thread on topic:
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I won’t answer questions about Christianity, or why Jewish folk don’t think Yeshua from Nazareth is the Mosiach.
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Ditto re: the teachings of the Ishmaelite.
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Let’s not make this a discussion about Zionism, the modern political state of Israel, the arabs in Judea/Sumeria or the like, except as it may relatet to religion.[/quote]
Is the true name of God even pronounceable? And is it 108 letters long (in Hebrew) or is it 216 letters long? Does the High Priest still say the name on Yom Kippur?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Exactly how restrictive is the Sabbath? I’ve heard quite a few different “off-limits” activities [/quote]
Restrictive? Try “liberating.”
I encourage non-Jewish people to have what I call a Reform Sabbath ---- have a fmily dinner Friday night, drink some wine, all the next day, don’t go to stores, don’t get on the computer, don’t watch TV, don’t answer the phone; don’t text; don’t go to work. Hang out with your family. Eat waffles. Take a nap. Lay in bed and have sex (excuse the children for that one).
[/quote]
I have to say I’d bet you’re right about this. I have a fair to middling addictive attraction to all manner of technology, and I don’t take breaks like this, but I KNOW that I should and I have no illusions that the outcome will be extremely positive and beneficial for both me and my family. I’d actually LOVE to take advantage of the nap and sex aspect, but my wife is not always cool with my doing either one of those on our only day off, lol.
[quote]
Not all trying to be contrary here, but I think this doesn’t necessarily hold true when one or both parents do not reciprocate by treating their children with an at least equivalent amount of respect. I was raised by a pretty damned strict father. He was also unfair, egotistical, selfish and wholly lacking in empathy. His love was always conditional, and if I wanted his respect, it always came at the price of adhering to his rules, which were always, at their root, founded upon how he feared he was being viewed and judged by his peers (other cops). My mother, on the other hand, is a saint. She is as selfless and self-sacrificing a person I have ever met, who never once held me in contempt or withheld love, even in my darkest, most rebellions periods. Indeed, it was in those periods that she usually gave the greatest part of her love.
Unsurprisingly, to me, anyway, from my teen years until this day, I have never had a truly close relationship with my father, while I’d pit my relationship with my mother against anyone’s, anywhere, anytime anyhow and for any amount of money. I mean that.
Anyway it’s not a big deal and it’s a detracting sub-topic, so please forgive me for indulging in it. It’s just that, for a lot of very poignant reasons not discussed here that thirdruffian could probably tell you about, it’s a bit of a sensitive topic for me.
[quote]
[quote]
In Israel, if you forget to buy beer or milk or bbq sauce, are there plenty of options? Perhaps Arab grocers? Or is it more like in America, where there is just a large enough portion of the population that doesn’t give a damn so it doesn’t really affect much? [/quote]
Stores are supposed to be closed, but they can pay a fine and stay open. (And I think some stores can be open, like drug stores.) Probably about 50% stay open.
The bigger issue is restaraunts would lose their kosher certification if they did this, so a lot more restaurants are closed for Friday night. (Again, some stay open, especially in tourist areas.)
BTW, I believe Israel is the only place in the world where you can get a Chik-fil-A on Sunday.[/quote]
Lol, that’s actually pretty funny. Thanks for explaining, I guess it is even more “liberating” than I had first suspected. 
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
[/quote]
Again, this is a very Christian question. Judaism (while it cares abot destination) cares most about THIS world and healing THIS world. So this is a largely unexplored (by me, anyway) question.
I would answer (without study) that their fate is same as everyone else, then, now, or in the future. See above post in this regard.
Big question. Can you narrow it? I see Adam making a mistake by lazily directing Eve on G-d’s instruction (“don’t touch the tree, or you die”). I see Eve irrationally tempted by the forbidden fruit (a very female tendancy – look at the Dr. Pepper 10 ads). I see the lie being about 90% of the truth, and twisting of G-d’s words, which serves as the first warning to keep the Torah EXACTLY correct.
I am unaware he’s changed. If you are talking “big miracles” from prophets, well G-d did that to give the prophets credibility, typically — evidence of Divine authority.
He may or may not do that still, or we may not recognize a miracle for what it is, until we have time and distance from the circumstance (which are generally dire).
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is the true name of God even pronounceable?
[/quote]
I presume you mean the “Tetragrammton.” Having not heard it, I don’t know. A lot of this comes from the fact that ancient Hebrew did not have vowels, so the vowels are missing, but there are what, six, possible verb/consonant combinations?
Neither. That’s Shiva, or some Indian pagan “god.”
No, because there is no High Priest, nor Temple in which to pronounce it.
This is what I was getting at before JB. I know DNA is not an exact science. But it is possible to tell if it is overwhelmingly likely that someone has Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. And mtDNA is exclusively female DNA - so only female Jewish ancestry is able to be detected in the mtDNA signature - through the haplogroup and specific mutations. At least that’s my understanding.
Not an exact science but if someone’s maternal line shows only Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrachi matches from a global database it’s pretty clear they have Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. My point, doesn’t this have profound implications? Many people in parts of Spain, Portugal, the Rhineland, Eastern Europe in specific etc. who are actually Jewish? If I am raising something controversial just skip.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
This is what I was getting at before JB. I know DNA is not an exact science. But it is possible to tell if it is overwhelmingly likely that someone has Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. And mtDNA is exclusively female DNA - so only female Jewish ancestry is able to be detected in the mtDNA signature - through the haplogroup and specific mutations. At least that’s my understanding.
Not an exact science but if someone’s maternal line shows only Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrachi matches from a global database it’s pretty clear they have Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. My point, doesn’t this have profound implications? Many people in parts of Spain, Portugal, the Rhineland, Eastern Europe in specific etc. who are actually Jewish? If I am raising something controversial just skip.[/quote]
The paper reports on populations wherein a single “founder-mother” is likely.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Many people in parts of Spain, Portugal, the Rhineland, Eastern Europe in specific etc. who are actually Jewish? [/quote]
Undoubtedly true. Indeed, there is a good reason Italians play Jewish folk and vice-versa in Hollywood movies ---- 1/4 Italians is Jewish by birth, whether they know it or now.
It has profound implications to me, in that I long for them to rejoin their people.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
[/quote]
Again, this is a very Christian question. Judaism (while it cares abot destination) cares most about THIS world and healing THIS world. So this is a largely unexplored (by me, anyway) question.
I would answer (without study) that their fate is same as everyone else, then, now, or in the future. See above post in this regard.
[/quote]
Guilty as charged, I am a Christian. I thought that may be your answer, but didnt know if there may be other considerations that may again thoroughly surprise me and be amazingly interesting.
originally I was just thinking the significance of ‘sin’ and the ‘punishment.’ I was just curious to know if the sin of eating from the tree was seen as anything other than a sin that just happened to be the first chronologically or if it had greater significance. The same for the ejection, is it considered just a demonstration of G-d’s power and will, or is it something much more severe/significant?
BUT, now you have some other questions churning. I may bother you later about it.
[quote]
I am unaware he’s changed. If you are talking “big miracles” from prophets, well G-d did that to give the prophets credibility, typically — evidence of Divine authority.
He may or may not do that still, or we may not recognize a miracle for what it is, until we have time and distance from the circumstance (which are generally dire).[/quote]
On this topic I was thinking along the lines of G-d’s interaction with us. In Genesis He communicates with us and He is very active with smiting and turning people in to pillars of salt. With Moses He still communicated with us, but was slightly more hands off, but still had the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea. Nowadays, He (seemingly) is completely hands off.
one very interesting idea on the topic compared human species/civilization development to child development and parents. In the beginning you are involved in every single thing a baby does, always there. As they grow, they must learn right from wrong and that takes demonstration consequences and punishments. then you let try to guide them lightly as they grow older. as young adults/adults, they move away and you are there when they need you.
I dont know, just a thought.
I do like your take on the matter, as well.
Thanks, JB!
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
Also- what is the Jewish view on adam and eves ejection from eden
[/quote]
I am not JB, but try Genesis 4:5-7.
[quote]
Also, also - do you have any thoughts on why G-d has changed his method of ‘dealing’ with humans over the millennia? I have heard some very intriguing thoughts on it, I was just wondering what your view on it may be.
Thanks![/quote]
No takers?
Ok, I will explain.
Gen 4:5-7 is the first conversation GOd has with a human after he expulsion from Eden. The conversation is with Cain, who perhaps was not as particular, or sincere, with his sacrifice as was his brother Abel. God admonishes him:
- But to Cain and to his offering He did not turn, and it annoyed Cain exceedingly, and his countenance fell.
- And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?
- Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."
Note that God says clearly that the fall from favor is not permanent, that it can be improved by human action.
Second, a man is responsible for the consequences of his actions, and that he can overcome evil.
(Some translations indicate “door” for “ptch” and this is an error. The word is the same as for the entrance to Noah’s ark, or to the entrance to the Tabernacle: “opening, entrance, aperture.” It is also the term for the entrance to the grave! Is God speaking about the entrance to Cain’s grave, or is He foreseeing the murder of Abel by Cain?)
So in 3 brief verses is contained the essence of Man’s transit and a relationship with an all-knowing, prescient God: it is up to Man to improve himself, and abjure sin, and Man has free will to do so!
Da Man: In your latest post to Jewbacca, you allude to a question which, for many readers, constitutes a major story arc of The Five Books through the pre-exile Prophets: God’s progressive withdrawal from material affairs of men. That was my reason for the reference to the Richard Elliot Friedman book on the same subject.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
This is what I was getting at before JB. I know DNA is not an exact science. But it is possible to tell if it is overwhelmingly likely that someone has Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. And mtDNA is exclusively female DNA - so only female Jewish ancestry is able to be detected in the mtDNA signature - through the haplogroup and specific mutations. At least that’s my understanding.
Not an exact science but if someone’s maternal line shows only Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrachi matches from a global database it’s pretty clear they have Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. My point, doesn’t this have profound implications? Many people in parts of Spain, Portugal, the Rhineland, Eastern Europe in specific etc. who are actually Jewish? If I am raising something controversial just skip.[/quote]
The paper reports on populations wherein a single “founder-mother” is likely.[/quote]
Very interesting. BTW, one of the authors of that study(Doron M. Behar) is also one of the geneticists who works at the largest DNA testing company:
“We compare your results with the data from the landmark study published by Dr. Doron Behar, our Chief mtDNA Scientist, and quoted by NY Times, CNN, BBC, and other major media outlets.”
Cash or Credit? Which is better, spending wise.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cash or Credit? Which is better, spending wise.[/quote]
“He who buys wholesale has no portion in the world to come.”
Consider yourself damned.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cash or Credit? Which is better, spending wise.[/quote]
I assume you posted this because of the sterotype that Jewish people are “cheap,” earned due to the fact that, during the Middle Ages, your church forbid Jewish people from earning a living at many professions, but permitted Jewish people to lend money and be merchants.
The actuality is observant Jewish people in the USA (and everywhere) have the highest rate of giving than any other people (followed closely by Evangelical Christians).
This is because it is a mitzvah, a command, to give 10% to charity – at a minimum — and another commandment to work to heal the world and care for the poor. I give upwards of 20% (10% to religious and 10% to secular) and do lots of free work.
Jewish hospitals in Israel provide (for free) almost 100% of the medical care for arabs who hate us in Judea and Sumaria, while their fellow arabs in Eqypt or Jordan turn them away at gun point – not for the arabs, but for G-d.
For an American example, Haym Salomon essentially bankrolled a fair portion of the American Revolution, and was sentenced to death by the British for his efforts (he escaped) but died penniless.
Lots of sterotypes about Jewish people are sadly true — argumentative, annoying, opinionated, hard business traders — but stingy is not valid, and a hang on from 500 years ago.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Da Man reloaded wrote:
JB- I had never even considered the Israelites goyem before Mt Sinai, that is very new to me. Is there any indication of what their ultimate fate was? I mean the fate of their soul.
Also- what is the Jewish view on adam and eves ejection from eden
[/quote]
I am not JB, but try Genesis 4:5-7.
Doc,
May i ask which translation that was from? I am most familiar with the NIV, unfortunately. Not having the ability to read the Bible in its original language is kind of annoying… I dont trust anyones translation, quite frankly.
the NIV reads:
5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, â??Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it. â??
As you can see, the language you detail is not there. I read it and wondered what you were getting at but never did ask. From the NIV version I glean that Cain being a good man (ruling over sin) will gain him acceptance into G-d’s heart/kingdom/world/whatever you want to call it. That is mostly from 7, 5 and 6 kind of leave me scratching my head in general.
also, I read the description of the book you linked to. It sounded almost like a diest view to me, where the creator withdrew from his creation, which again left me scratching my head. I will look more closely at it.
My apologies for not responding, I was more confused than anything. I absolutely appreciate your thoughts.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cash or Credit? Which is better, spending wise.[/quote]
I assume you posted this because of the sterotype that Jewish people are “cheap,” earned due to the fact that, during the Middle Ages, your church forbid Jewish people from earning a living at many professions, but permitted Jewish people to lend money and be merchants.
[/quote]
No, I was curious which you thought was more financially responsible/biblically sound/good steward/&c. Referring to the don’t become a slave/owing people money thing. Wasn’t sure if that was a big thing in Judaism.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cash or Credit? Which is better, spending wise.[/quote]
I assume you posted this because of the sterotype that Jewish people are “cheap,” earned due to the fact that, during the Middle Ages, your church forbid Jewish people from earning a living at many professions, but permitted Jewish people to lend money and be merchants.
[/quote]
Not only that, but in those days the church considered charging of interest to be usury (at the time any form of interest was considered usury), and good Christians did not not practice it. So the Jews were a perfect solution to the problem. Since of course Europe required money lending services, and most people dislike paying it back or the lending party. So it fueled the anti Jewish feelings as well…
There’s probably no good answer to this question, but the conversation has shifted toward it and I’ve always wondered about it so I’ll just go ahead and let loose with it.
The first real inkling I got that there even was such a thing as antisemitism outside of Nazi Germany was, strangely, the movie School Ties, with Brendan Frasier. I’m certainly not recommending the movie, but upon watching it in high school, I was positively floored by the idea that there were large swaths of society, much less my own society, that harbored this surreal hatred of someone who in most cases was indistinguishable from any other member of their in-group. This opened up my mind, and I started seeing how bad the problem really was, in Europe, of course in the Middle East, and yes, in America, where the internet opened up a whole lot of ugly doors I later wished I hadn’t peeked behind. And then I began to learn of the historical aspect of antisemitism, which I naively had thought was limited to Hitler’s just choosing a minority group at a crisis point in German history. Wow, was I ever ignorant.
Anyway, my question, if it can be called that, for you and the Doc, or any other Jews who happen to be here, is this: WTF?
Seriously, though, why? Do you think there is a particular reason that the Jews seem ALWAYS, throughout their entire history, to be caricatured and demonized and scapegoated. Whence this weird “need” to create this grand evil foe which must be dehumanized and eradicated from every corner of the earth? Seriously. WTF?