Ask Moshe

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
521

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
There is an old Greek saying that with God the impossible becomes possible. Yet, after visiting Rome and seeing its immense military and political power Josephus unsuccessfully attempted to dissuade the Jews from engaging in rebellion and war against them seeing it as futile and likely to lead to disaster. Having failed in this he reluctantly led the Jewish forces against Vespasian and his son Titus leading to the annihilation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple. Was Josephus privy to some knowledge his kinsmen lacked? Is the Greek saying literally true? What do orthodox Jews today think of Josephus and in particular his extra-biblical history that covers the events related in the Septuagint(The History of the Jews)? Sorry for all the questions.[/quote]

Josephus was a fairly good historian, but edited and had his biases like any person. He’s certainly one of the better records of the times.

No idea if he had any secret knoweldge. Doubtful.

The revolts against Rome were ill-timed, for many reasons. Man should not try to force the timetable of G-d. This is actually one of the major arguments against the re-creation of Israel as a modern state — answered by the fact that it does not pretend to be anything more than it is — just another Medeterranean state — at this time.[/quote]

Thanks. I had some suspicion that Josephus may be considered some kind of heretic for basically rewriting the bible. Israel may be just another Mediterranean state right now, but its people and their history are an inspiration for me and I’m sure many others too.
[/quote]

No, what Josephus wrote down was really not “in” the Tanakh, but rather 1 century CE matters, which are historically significant, but really not that religiously significant.

Now, he did write some books that were for gentile audiences explaining Judaism and the history of the Jewish people, which are pretty good, but they are not “cannonical” and don’t pretend to be. They’re just solid scholarly works of the time, with the flaws and strengths of anything written by a smart guy.

522

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Well, I asked Mrs. Jewbacca. Apparently, in some Mizrahim communities, that is, in fact, the tradition. It’s cultural, and not religious — something they picked up while living in arab countries.[/quote]

That reminds me of a funny story.

Evidently during the Crusades, the Franks sampled the local women, who were of course Muslim. The brave knights got a taste, shall we say, for “aggressively groomed” lady parts. Upon their return to their own lands, they “encouraged” their wives and girlfriends to do likewise. Well, the women complied, as women supposedly did in that long-past time, but they were none too happy about it. In order to avoid embarrassment, they endeavored to conceal the now-denuded state of their Venusian mounds, and a cottage industry sprang up to provide them with hairpieces to replace the purloined pubes.

That’s right, pussy wigs.

What I like best about these wondrous bits of fluff is their name. They are called “merkins”.

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile.

523

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

524

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?

525

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?[/quote]

Fuck it.

Ill marry you.

526

“D’rum ist der Oesterreicher froh und frank, // Trägt seinen Fehl, trägt offen seine Freuden, // Beneidet nicht, läßt lieber sich beneiden! // Und was er thut, ist frohen Muths gethan. // 'S ist möglich, daß in Sachsen und beim Rhein // Es Leute gibt, die mehr in Büchern lasen; // Allein, was Noth thut und was Gott gefällt, // Der klare Blick, der offne, richt’ge Sinn, // Da tritt der Oesterreicher hin vor Jeden, // Denkt sich sein Theil, und läßt die Andern reden!” - König Ottokar’s Glück und Ende,

527

which is, btw, not written without irony, and written by an Austrian civil servant who knew that he was one and what he had written…

528

Es ist ein gutes Land, wohl wert, dass sich ein Fuerst sein unterwinde!

529

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?[/quote]

Fuck it.

Ill marry you. [/quote]

Give me a rifle and I’ll think about it.

530

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?[/quote]

Fuck it.

Ill marry you. [/quote]

Give me a rifle and I’ll think about it.
[/quote]

Trying to leech of me already !?!

531

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?[/quote]

Fuck it.

Ill marry you. [/quote]

Give me a rifle and I’ll think about it.
[/quote]

Trying to leech of me already !?![/quote]

Not at all. I think it was established, however, on TheBeth’s thread, that a firearm is a legitimate engagement present.

532

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

So whenever somebody loud and ignorant bellows about how much better he is than everyone else because he’s “a merkin”, I just think “pussy wig” silently to myself, and smile. [/quote]

You would have made such a solid Austrian.

[/quote]

There’s still time. What’s your naturalization policy like?[/quote]

Fuck it.

Ill marry you. [/quote]

Give me a rifle and I’ll think about it.
[/quote]

Trying to leech of me already !?![/quote]

Not at all. I think it was established, however, on TheBeth’s thread, that a firearm is a legitimate engagement present.
[/quote]

Good point.

533

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
What I ask sometimes is: when did God ever tell anyone to COMPILE a Bible (as defined by a man made collection of Scripture into one volume) anyway? When did G-d put Himself into a 66 book box?
He didn’t, ‘‘Man’’ did under the rule of Constantine…But wasn’t Constantine about as Pagan as they came?
Is that correct?
[/quote]

As noted, you are talking about the Christian Bible, which (according to Judaism) imperfectly adopts the Tanakh and adds what it adds.

In Judaism, the core documents consist of the Tanakh (the Torah – five books given to Moshe, Nevi’im (the prophets) and Ketuvim together with the oral law (Talmud) which was also given to Moshe and later written down, with admitted and known issues regarding omissions and mis-incusions.

There are existing copies of the Tanakh (or more accurately various books of the Tanakh from different and varied sources) that strongly suggest that what we have today is a letter-for-letter copy of the original writings.[/quote]

What is added by the Christian Bible (other than the New Testament)? I know the Catholic and Protestant Bibles have different “Old Testament” books which Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. Is that what you are referring to?

On another note, I have been thinking for about a decade to go sit down with a Rabbi. Not for him to convert me and me not to convert him, but to sit down and just discuss the heritage behind the Tanakh. Do you think a Rabbi at a local Synagogue would be willing to sit down and discuss things with me every month for an hour?

534

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

What is added by the Christian Bible (other than the New Testament)? I know the Catholic and Protestant Bibles have different “Old Testament” books which Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. Is that what you are referring to?

[/quote]

I am out of my depth talking about Christian books; I defer to others, preferably on some other thread. I just know stuff was added and there is or was a fight about what is cannonical.

[quote]
On another note, I have been thinking for about a decade to go sit down with a Rabbi. Not for him to convert me and me not to convert him, but to sit down and just discuss the heritage behind the Tanakh. Do you think a Rabbi at a local Synagogue would be willing to sit down and discuss things with me every month for an hour?[/quote]

That’s a pretty big “ask” as they say in the transactional lawyer business.

I suspect a better choice would be to call your local synagogue and ask them if they have a Wednesday night class (or whatever, just not Shabbos – Saturday) on basics of Judaism. There is usually a very nominal fee for course materials.

A local JCC probably has the same concept.

535

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
What I ask sometimes is: when did God ever tell anyone to COMPILE a Bible (as defined by a man made collection of Scripture into one volume) anyway? When did G-d put Himself into a 66 book box?
He didn’t, ‘‘Man’’ did under the rule of Constantine…But wasn’t Constantine about as Pagan as they came?
Is that correct?
[/quote]

As noted, you are talking about the Christian Bible, which (according to Judaism) imperfectly adopts the Tanakh and adds what it adds.

In Judaism, the core documents consist of the Tanakh (the Torah – five books given to Moshe, Nevi’im (the prophets) and Ketuvim together with the oral law (Talmud) which was also given to Moshe and later written down, with admitted and known issues regarding omissions and mis-incusions.

There are existing copies of the Tanakh (or more accurately various books of the Tanakh from different and varied sources) that strongly suggest that what we have today is a letter-for-letter copy of the original writings.[/quote]

What is added by the Christian Bible (other than the New Testament)? I know the Catholic and Protestant Bibles have different “Old Testament” books which Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. Is that what you are referring to?

On another note, I have been thinking for about a decade to go sit down with a Rabbi. Not for him to convert me and me not to convert him, but to sit down and just discuss the heritage behind the Tanakh. Do you think a Rabbi at a local Synagogue would be willing to sit down and discuss things with me every month for an hour?[/quote]

It’s a god time of the year to have such thoughts: the Torah is started again this week in its annual cycle.
JCC is a choice, but if you are truly committed, find a Conservative synagogue and see if they have a study group (typically Sunday or Tuesday)in which the week’s portion may be discussed. (Where in Texas are you? If you are an Aggie…you are in luck.) Typically all levels of inquiry are welcomed, but don’t be surprised by the argument that ensues.

536

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
There is an old Greek saying that with God the impossible becomes possible. Yet, after visiting Rome and seeing its immense military and political power Josephus unsuccessfully attempted to dissuade the Jews from engaging in rebellion and war against them seeing it as futile and likely to lead to disaster. Having failed in this he reluctantly led the Jewish forces against Vespasian and his son Titus leading to the annihilation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple. Was Josephus privy to some knowledge his kinsmen lacked? Is the Greek saying literally true? What do orthodox Jews today think of Josephus and in particular his extra-biblical history that covers the events related in the Septuagint(The History of the Jews)? Sorry for all the questions.[/quote]

Josephus was a fairly good historian, but edited and had his biases like any person. He’s certainly one of the better records of the times.

No idea if he had any secret knoweldge. Doubtful.

The revolts against Rome were ill-timed, for many reasons. Man should not try to force the timetable of G-d. This is actually one of the major arguments against the re-creation of Israel as a modern state — answered by the fact that it does not pretend to be anything more than it is — just another Medeterranean state — at this time.[/quote]

Thanks. I had some suspicion that Josephus may be considered some kind of heretic for basically rewriting the bible. Israel may be just another Mediterranean state right now, but its people and their history are an inspiration for me and I’m sure many others too.
[/quote]

No, what Josephus wrote down was really not “in” the Tanakh, but rather 1 century CE matters, which are historically significant, but really not that religiously significant.

Now, he did write some books that were for gentile audiences explaining Judaism and the history of the Jewish people, which are pretty good, but they are not “cannonical” and don’t pretend to be. They’re just solid scholarly works of the time, with the flaws and strengths of anything written by a smart guy.[/quote]

Josephus rewrote Torah - the creation story, death of Isaac and the Exodus, the rejection of that generation and the death of Moses, Eli, Saul, David, Ahab, the captivity of the ten tribes, the first year of Cyrus, the death of Alexander the Great, the death of Judas Maccabeus etc. etc. etc.

With significant differences but clearly based on the Greek Septuagint(as Josephus wrote mostly in Greek for a Greek audience.) He takes pains to explain his own priestly origin and connection to the Hasmoneans through his mother(royal and priestly bloodlines.) The aim of his history is to prove to the Greeks that the Jews’ history is more ancient and worthy of study than that of the Greeks or of any other people.

537

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
What I ask sometimes is: when did God ever tell anyone to COMPILE a Bible (as defined by a man made collection of Scripture into one volume) anyway? When did G-d put Himself into a 66 book box?
He didn’t, ‘‘Man’’ did under the rule of Constantine…But wasn’t Constantine about as Pagan as they came?
Is that correct?
[/quote]

As noted, you are talking about the Christian Bible, which (according to Judaism) imperfectly adopts the Tanakh and adds what it adds.

In Judaism, the core documents consist of the Tanakh (the Torah – five books given to Moshe, Nevi’im (the prophets) and Ketuvim together with the oral law (Talmud) which was also given to Moshe and later written down, with admitted and known issues regarding omissions and mis-incusions.

There are existing copies of the Tanakh (or more accurately various books of the Tanakh from different and varied sources) that strongly suggest that what we have today is a letter-for-letter copy of the original writings.[/quote]

What is added by the Christian Bible (other than the New Testament)? I know the Catholic and Protestant Bibles have different “Old Testament” books which Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. Is that what you are referring to?

On another note, I have been thinking for about a decade to go sit down with a Rabbi. Not for him to convert me and me not to convert him, but to sit down and just discuss the heritage behind the Tanakh. Do you think a Rabbi at a local Synagogue would be willing to sit down and discuss things with me every month for an hour?[/quote]

It’s a god time of the year to have such thoughts: the Torah is started again this week in its annual cycle.
JCC is a choice, but if you are truly committed, find a Conservative synagogue and see if they have a study group (typically Sunday or Tuesday)in which the week’s portion may be discussed. (Where in Texas are you? If you are an Aggie…you are in luck.) Typically all levels of inquiry are welcomed, but don’t be surprised by the argument that ensues.
[/quote]

I live near one of the largest Jewish populations in Houston (Meyerland) I know of 4 synagogues within 5 miles of my house. There is another one that is on my way to work. There are 2 JCC near my house also. I will look into it. I am not wanting to start any fights just want to learn.

538

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Josephus rewrote Torah - the creation story, death of Isaac and the Exodus, the rejection of that generation and the death of Moses, Eli, Saul, David, Ahab, the captivity of the ten tribes, the first year of Cyrus, the death of Alexander the Great, the death of Judas Maccabeus etc. etc. etc.

With significant differences but clearly based on the Greek Septuagint(as Josephus wrote mostly in Greek for a Greek audience.) He takes pains to explain his own priestly origin and connection to the Hasmoneans through his mother(royal and priestly bloodlines.) The aim of his history is to prove to the Greeks that the Jews’ history is more ancient and worthy of study than that of the Greeks or of any other people.[/quote]

I think we are talking around each other. In addition to his contemporary historical account of 1 century CE, Josephus certainly wrote other books, notably “Antiquities of the Jews” and “Against Apion,” one or both of which I think you are referring to.

I do agree they are a summary of Jewish history and theology, but he didn’t pretend to “rewrite the Torah,” any more than any commentator of any book or any apologetic is “rewriting” something. They are commentaries and summaries to make known the history of the Jewish people to a non-Jewish audience. They are not, and do not pretend to be, a replacement of the Torah.

As commentaries go, they are OK. They have flaws and ommissions and some really great points.

539

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Josephus rewrote Torah - the creation story, death of Isaac and the Exodus, the rejection of that generation and the death of Moses, Eli, Saul, David, Ahab, the captivity of the ten tribes, the first year of Cyrus, the death of Alexander the Great, the death of Judas Maccabeus etc. etc. etc.

With significant differences but clearly based on the Greek Septuagint(as Josephus wrote mostly in Greek for a Greek audience.) He takes pains to explain his own priestly origin and connection to the Hasmoneans through his mother(royal and priestly bloodlines.) The aim of his history is to prove to the Greeks that the Jews’ history is more ancient and worthy of study than that of the Greeks or of any other people.[/quote]

I think we are talking around each other. In addition to his contemporary historical account of 1 century CE, Josephus certainly wrote other books, notably “Antiquities of the Jews” and “Against Apion,” one or both of which I think you are referring to.

I do agree they are a summary of Jewish history and theology, but he didn’t pretend to “rewrite the Torah,” any more than any commentator of any book or any apologetic is “rewriting” something. They are commentaries and summaries to make known the history of the Jewish people to a non-Jewish audience. They are not, and do not pretend to be, a replacement of the Torah.

As commentaries go, they are OK. They have flaws and ommissions and some really great points.[/quote]

Yes I was referring to the Antiquities of the Jews. But I see your point.

540

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
What I ask sometimes is: when did God ever tell anyone to COMPILE a Bible (as defined by a man made collection of Scripture into one volume) anyway? When did G-d put Himself into a 66 book box?
He didn’t, ‘‘Man’’ did under the rule of Constantine…But wasn’t Constantine about as Pagan as they came?
Is that correct?
[/quote]

As noted, you are talking about the Christian Bible, which (according to Judaism) imperfectly adopts the Tanakh and adds what it adds.

In Judaism, the core documents consist of the Tanakh (the Torah – five books given to Moshe, Nevi’im (the prophets) and Ketuvim together with the oral law (Talmud) which was also given to Moshe and later written down, with admitted and known issues regarding omissions and mis-incusions.

There are existing copies of the Tanakh (or more accurately various books of the Tanakh from different and varied sources) that strongly suggest that what we have today is a letter-for-letter copy of the original writings.[/quote]

What is added by the Christian Bible (other than the New Testament)? I know the Catholic and Protestant Bibles have different “Old Testament” books which Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. Is that what you are referring to?

On another note, I have been thinking for about a decade to go sit down with a Rabbi. Not for him to convert me and me not to convert him, but to sit down and just discuss the heritage behind the Tanakh. Do you think a Rabbi at a local Synagogue would be willing to sit down and discuss things with me every month for an hour?[/quote]

It’s a god time of the year to have such thoughts: the Torah is started again this week in its annual cycle.
JCC is a choice, but if you are truly committed, find a Conservative synagogue and see if they have a study group (typically Sunday or Tuesday)in which the week’s portion may be discussed. (Where in Texas are you? If you are an Aggie…you are in luck.) Typically all levels of inquiry are welcomed, but don’t be surprised by the argument that ensues.
[/quote]

I live near one of the largest Jewish populations in Houston (Meyerland) I know of 4 synagogues within 5 miles of my house. There is another one that is on my way to work. There are 2 JCC near my house also. I will look into it. I am not wanting to start any fights just want to learn.
[/quote]

Oh, no, I did not mean to imply that you might start an argument. On the contrary, the nature of study is dispute. You have used the word “heritage” in proximity to Tanakh, and it is discussion–to the point of respected disagreement–that is at the heart of the heritage.

At the risk of offending some, I found this website, which offers a religious debate on the Documentary Hypothesis, and it just so happens that RIchard Elliott Friedman (of brief personal acquaintance) has written an essay on the end of the yearly cycle: