Article: Is Sugar Toxic?

Nutrition
101

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
MODOK,

Would you say glycemic load has a significant impact on the storage properties of insulin?

To rephrase, would a carb source of GI 70-80 be more beneficial than one of GI 30-40, assuming gram total and GL are the same?

I ask because I prefer solid food sources for the carbs (rice, pasta) over a sugary drink or even one with maltodextrin/dextrose.

What do you think? Does it really matter for muscle building if you spike Insulin “x high” with source A versus source B, if total carb intake is the same between the two options?

Hope that made sense. I’m tired as fuck.[/quote]

Get some damn sleep! lol

Yes, all those things do matter it certain contexts. First, remember the AUC of insulin for a given amount of carbohydrate (x) is always going to be the same (y), whether or not the glycemic index is high or not. So if you eat 500 g of carbs (glucose) its not going to matter so much about the insulin- the same amount will be released whether its grape juice of pasta (excluding fructose portion).

However, the AD is set up so that you eat high GI foods immediately upon conclusion of the low carb phase, then gradually switch over to complex carbs over the next 8-12 hours and end the load with complex carbs. It is my theory that this works well due to the rapid up-regulation and translocation of the GLUT4 receptor when you have a sudden insulin spike (since its an insulin-regulated glucose transporter).

Once they have been upregulated to their maximum capacity by the insulin spike you can switch over to more complex carbs and still reap the benefits. Whereas if you don’t get the initial large insulin spike, you will not up-regulate GLUT4 to its maximum capacity.
[/quote]

I don’t know how much you know about intermittent fasting. But for most its a 16 hour fast followed by a 8 hr feed. Do you think that the same effect is created? The large insulin spike (from a large carb meal to break the fast and after a workout) would upregulated the GLUT4 transporters and then the next carb meal in the 8hr window would be able to benifit from this? Your thoughts?[/quote]

Well first, I am continually amazed at people who are making themselves rich by marketing concepts which I have used for years and thought pretty much everyone either used or knew about. First it was the “Paleo” people getting rich by adding vegetables to the Atkins Diet now its Mark Berkhan with this “Lean Gains” stuff. I’m happy that they are making money off of it and spreading the concepts further.

I’ve used the 16/8 fast protocol during my diets for about 15 years. The rationale is a longer period of a catecholamine-dominated physiological state. I usually eat my first meal around 2 pm on a fast, and the last at 10 or 11 pm. All the benefits that he claims, I have found to be true. Stretching that “fast” period as far as possible is tremendously effective for fat loss. I have never tried the concept for maintenance/bulking. But the science is solid. Yes I do believe that, if the insulin spike is large enough on that first meal post-fast, that it would carry over somewhat to the next meal in the scenario you mentioned.
[/quote]

I have a question/hypothesis that I would like your opinion. (and of course anyone else who would like to throw in there thoughts)

A couple of days ago I had a blood glucose test done (I didn’t know that was one of the tests being run so an hour earlier I had eaten my first meal of the day which consisted of 160g of carbs all from oatmeal and an apple, 120g of protein and trace fat from the meat.) My blood glucose came back at 36 which is hypoglycemic. The reference range is 74-100 for that lab. I felt no symptoms of hypoglycemia.

My hypothesis is that my body was so primed from the 16 hr fast plus a long weight session and a 30min slow cardio session that it sucked up the glucose too fast and my blood glucose levels dropped to far. At this meal I also took 2 1.5g fish oil capsules and a large amount of cinnamon in my oatmeal (I was thinking these might exaggerate the effect because they make your cells more sensative to insulin). Do you think this is possible?

Sorry that this is slightly off the topic of the thread but I feel where the conversation is it fits. Thank you for the thoughts and input.

102

[quote]Jakabol wrote:
I am no super intelligent science but it seems to me that Taubes whole insulin and sugar is evil argument is flawed on such a basic level its almost silly. Maybe someone can clarify. As I understand it, Taubes believes insulin is major fat storage hormone. Taubes believes that sugar jacks up insulin and therefore all this excess insulin being generated by evil sugar consumption is responsible for excess fat storage. I could buy into this idea if both protein and fat did not cause an insulin response. However as I believe most here know, protein can generate a huge insulin response, with some proteins and aminos causing a similar response to those evil sugars. So what gives.[/quote]

protein causes a monophasic insulin response where only stored insulin is released…this is more of a spiking motion…

carbs cause a biphasic insulin response where the carbs also initiate the production of more insulin by the beta cells…this leads to a sustained secretion of insulin…

The protein induced insulin response also appears to uptake more glucose into the muscle cells than a carb induced insulin response…

the insulin responses are quite different…

103

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
MODOK,

Would you say glycemic load has a significant impact on the storage properties of insulin?

To rephrase, would a carb source of GI 70-80 be more beneficial than one of GI 30-40, assuming gram total and GL are the same?

I ask because I prefer solid food sources for the carbs (rice, pasta) over a sugary drink or even one with maltodextrin/dextrose.

What do you think? Does it really matter for muscle building if you spike Insulin “x high” with source A versus source B, if total carb intake is the same between the two options?

Hope that made sense. I’m tired as fuck.[/quote]

Get some damn sleep! lol

Yes, all those things do matter it certain contexts. First, remember the AUC of insulin for a given amount of carbohydrate (x) is always going to be the same (y), whether or not the glycemic index is high or not. So if you eat 500 g of carbs (glucose) its not going to matter so much about the insulin- the same amount will be released whether its grape juice of pasta (excluding fructose portion).

However, the AD is set up so that you eat high GI foods immediately upon conclusion of the low carb phase, then gradually switch over to complex carbs over the next 8-12 hours and end the load with complex carbs. It is my theory that this works well due to the rapid up-regulation and translocation of the GLUT4 receptor when you have a sudden insulin spike (since its an insulin-regulated glucose transporter).

Once they have been upregulated to their maximum capacity by the insulin spike you can switch over to more complex carbs and still reap the benefits. Whereas if you don’t get the initial large insulin spike, you will not up-regulate GLUT4 to its maximum capacity.
[/quote]

I don’t know how much you know about intermittent fasting. But for most its a 16 hour fast followed by a 8 hr feed. Do you think that the same effect is created? The large insulin spike (from a large carb meal to break the fast and after a workout) would upregulated the GLUT4 transporters and then the next carb meal in the 8hr window would be able to benifit from this? Your thoughts?[/quote]

Well first, I am continually amazed at people who are making themselves rich by marketing concepts which I have used for years and thought pretty much everyone either used or knew about. First it was the “Paleo” people getting rich by adding vegetables to the Atkins Diet now its Mark Berkhan with this “Lean Gains” stuff. I’m happy that they are making money off of it and spreading the concepts further.

I’ve used the 16/8 fast protocol during my diets for about 15 years. The rationale is a longer period of a catecholamine-dominated physiological state. I usually eat my first meal around 2 pm on a fast, and the last at 10 or 11 pm. All the benefits that he claims, I have found to be true. Stretching that “fast” period as far as possible is tremendously effective for fat loss. I have never tried the concept for maintenance/bulking. But the science is solid. Yes I do believe that, if the insulin spike is large enough on that first meal post-fast, that it would carry over somewhat to the next meal in the scenario you mentioned.
[/quote]

I have a question/hypothesis that I would like your opinion. (and of course anyone else who would like to throw in there thoughts)

A couple of days ago I had a blood glucose test done (I didn’t know that was one of the tests being run so an hour earlier I had eaten my first meal of the day which consisted of 160g of carbs all from oatmeal and an apple, 120g of protein and trace fat from the meat.) My blood glucose came back at 36 which is hypoglycemic. The reference range is 74-100 for that lab. I felt no symptoms of hypoglycemia.

My hypothesis is that my body was so primed from the 16 hr fast plus a long weight session and a 30min slow cardio session that it sucked up the glucose too fast and my blood glucose levels dropped to far. At this meal I also took 2 1.5g fish oil capsules and a large amount of cinnamon in my oatmeal (I was thinking these might exaggerate the effect because they make your cells more sensative to insulin). Do you think this is possible?

Sorry that this is slightly off the topic of the thread but I feel where the conversation is it fits. Thank you for the thoughts and input. [/quote]

That is extremely bizarre and I honestly couldn’t even give you an educated guess as to what was going on. I glucose that low is never really seen in a healthy, non-diabetic person. It could be a combination of those things you listed, but I would have expected a glucose in the 100’s being post-prandial with 160 g of carbs.
[/quote]

Yes it is very confusing. I just had a fasting glucose test and I was right in the middle of normal range. So I have no idea what was going on, especially since I felt fine. I am very curious what could cause this.

104

[quote]D Public wrote:

[quote]Jakabol wrote:
I am no super intelligent science but it seems to me that Taubes whole insulin and sugar is evil argument is flawed on such a basic level its almost silly. Maybe someone can clarify. As I understand it, Taubes believes insulin is major fat storage hormone. Taubes believes that sugar jacks up insulin and therefore all this excess insulin being generated by evil sugar consumption is responsible for excess fat storage. I could buy into this idea if both protein and fat did not cause an insulin response. However as I believe most here know, protein can generate a huge insulin response, with some proteins and aminos causing a similar response to those evil sugars. So what gives.[/quote]

protein causes a monophasic insulin response where only stored insulin is released…this is more of a spiking motion…

carbs cause a biphasic insulin response where the carbs also initiate the production of more insulin by the beta cells…this leads to a sustained secretion of insulin…

The protein induced insulin response also appears to uptake more glucose into the muscle cells than a carb induced insulin response…

the insulin responses are quite different…
[/quote]
Fair enough thanks for clarifying.

105

so the 16/8 has benefits really for dieting, but not so much for bulking?

106

Well, I would assume that the term “lean gains” implies it can be used for gaining/bulking and not just dieting. I have no experience with it for that purpose, though.