[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I’m about to head out for a giant plate of spaghetti, but someone mentioned Ockham’s Razor a while ago and I thought of something that needs a word or two said about it. Observationally, this phenomenon of introducing the refined carbohydrate and its effects on a previously naive population is everywhere in the past. Missionary physicians (including Albert Scweitzer) all over the world in the 18th and 19th centuries saw and wrote about first hand experiences with the native populations being nearly free of “western diseases” ( I wonder why they call them that?) upon first arriving in naive native populations. There were virtually no incidence of cancer, heart disease, or obesity among these populations. Only after trade was established between a western country and the native country do you see the diseases. What were they trading to the natives? Primarily refined carbohydrate. After only a few years of consumption, the western diseases exploded in the native populations. Sure this is anecdotal evidence and doesn’t establish causation, but Schweitzer and many of the other physicians were absolutely convinced that refined carbohydrate was to blame. There are also studies where populations were divided, half relocated to western countries, half left in native primitive culture. What happened? The same thing. An explosion of western diseases in the relocated group, nothing significant in the control group. Then there are the Inuit, who experienced the same thing. All of this goes back to Ockham’s Razor- sure you can come up with some convuluted theories about why this happened to these diverse populations scattered over many years of observation. But the simplest explanation- that the introduction of refined carbohydrate led to these problems, is probably the correct one if you are following Ockham’s Razor.[/quote]
Actually, most of the trade into Africa involved guns, ammunition, and factory goods. Europe had no reason to send agricultural goods to Africa, as that is what they needed most from trade. African tribes had been cultivating and consuming starches for hundreds of years before colonialism. There are issues with assuming zero incidence of disease in a population before any contact with western culture, especially when the arrival of westerners resulted in an increase in life expectancy in that population. It’s entirely possible that 1) natives were still getting sick before but it was never reported and that 2) natives simply lived long enough to succumb to “Western Disease” more frequently after the introduction of western medicine, guns, etc.[/quote]
Come on, Strong. You can’t be serious with this? Now you are saying that Britain, France, and the Netherlands DIDN’T trade flour and sugar with native populations all over the world? I can only assume you are trying to make a joke. This is EXTREMELY well documented phenomenon and accepted by mainstream medicine for over 100 years. Just look into the work of Schweitzer, British physician Samuel Hutton (working with the Nan indian tribe in Labrador), French physician Stanislas Tanchou, Ales Hrdlicka (sp?), Henry Goodrich and scores of other physicians doing extended field work with native populations wrote about this phenomenon ad nauseum in the early 20th century. No one is assuming anything in regards to western diseases. This was field observation over many years by some incredibly smart people. Schweitzer was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in part for the work that he did with these tribes. We introduced refined carbohydrate to these various populations they consumed ever increasing amounts of them. Its documented what the ships dropped off and picked up. Its a fact and end of story. After it was introduced, over a period of the next 30-50 years these physicians documented a direct relationship between the consumption of refined carbohydrates and the new diagnoses of cancer, heart disease, and obesity. Its a very strong relationship. Check out the Tokelau Island Migration Study if you want to see for yourself.
You are grasping at straws, my friend. Ockham’s Razor.
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I’m not saying that no refined carbohydrates entered Africa during the colonial age, but to imply that flour and sugar were flowing into Africa from Europe is entirely ignorant of the nature of the triangular trade routes running between Europe, the new world, and Africa. Manufactured goods to Africa, slaves to the new world, sugar, rum, and tropical crops to Europe. I’ve just offered a possible explanation for what you’re insisting is the result of increased carbohydrate consumption. I’m sure those doctors were able to establish clear causality? Right now, all I’m seeing is fuzzily documented correlation.
You’re also making the implication that Africans didn’t cultivate, process, and consume cereal grains and other starches before European exploration, which is entirely false. This is documented fact and it throws MAJOR wrenches into your argument, end of story.
The study you mentioned is a case study of native populations migrating to an urban setting and involves far more variables than the simple addition of refined carbohydrate, as you are implying. From that study:
"The factors most likely contributing to this difference, are changes to a higher calorie, high protein diet, higher alcohol consumption, a greater weight gain and altered levels of physical activity in the migrants.
That doesn’t really contradict anything I’ve said in this thread.[/quote]
Where in the fucking hell did Africans, Eskimos, and Polynesians get refined carbohydrate before we brought it to them? I guess the Africans built processing facilities to make the refined sugar and white flour, etc that we are actually discussing in this thread. No one is talking about “cultivating some carbohydrate” (Although those Eskimos did NOT). No body gives a damn if they ate some tubers or unprocessed carbs. We’re not even talking about that. As a matter of fact, we’re not really even talking about the same subject anymore. I’m talking about Taubes and his original thought in his book about western diseases and their link to increased consumption of refined carbohydrate throughout modern and past civilizations. You sound like you are on a jihad against VLCD or something. Its bizarre. Its incredible to hear you imply that all of this did not happen. Its incredibly well documented, and your description of the triangle trade comes right out of a 5th grade history text. Flour, sugar, and MANY other fucking things that weren’t explicitly mentioned in your history book were flowing from Europe to uncivilized countries like crazy. They traded EVERYTHING each other wanted. For example, sugar consumption among the Masai went from < 5 lbs of sugar per person per year in 1923 to 50 lbs per person per year in 1945. Its documented. Thats how much sugar the cargo ships dropped off at their villages in trade. Its also documented in many other places that I’m speaking of. I just don’t see how you can imply this didn’t fundamentally change their diet? Its just a bizarre argument you are making in the face of all this evidence. But believe what you want to believe; its a free country and there are many folks who think that we didn’t land on the moon either in the face of overwhelming evidence.
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But I saw a show on the television that said the flag was moving even though theres no air to blow it. Did the television lie to me? And the shadowz. The moon shadowzzz
