Article: 'How Would Jesus Vote?'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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As for “render unto Caesar”, Mohandas, take it away:

Jesus evaded the direct question put to him because it was a trap. He was in no way bound to answer it. He therefore asked to see the coin for taxes. And then said with withering scorn, “How can you who traffic in Caesar’s coins and thus receive what to you are benefits of Caesar’s rule refuse to pay taxes?” Jesus’ whole preaching and practice point unmistakably to noncooperation, which necessarily includes nonpayment of taxes.

Mohandas K. Gandhi

Not necessarily the only opinion, but as valid as yours.

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CHAPTER XXIII.
Of the Civil Magistrate.

I. God, the Supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him over the people, for his own glory and the public good; and to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evil-doers.

II. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate when called thereunto; in the managing whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each commonwealth, so, for that end, they may lawfully, now under the New Testament, wage war upon just and necessary occasions.

III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.

IV. It is the duty of the people to pray for magistrates, to honor their persons, to pay them tribute and other dues, to obey their lawful commands, and to be subject to their authority, for conscience’ sake. Infidelity, or difference in religion, doth not make void the magistrate’s just and legal authority, nor free the people from their obedience to him: from which ecclesiastical persons are not exempted; much less hath the Pope any power or jurisdiction over them in their dominions, or over any of their people; and least of all to deprive them of their dominions or lives, if he shall judge them to be heretics, or upon any other pretense whatsoever. [/quote]

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

Then you haven’t thought this out at all.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

Then you haven’t thought this out at all. [/quote]

Let me help you though. What happens to you because you’re not giving money, food, clothes, and time to my religious charities? What would happen to me if I stopped? Now, what would happen to me if I held back, in some way, my portion of entitlement ‘donations?’

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

Then you haven’t thought this out at all. [/quote]

Let me help you though. What happens to you because you’re not giving money, food, clothes, and time to my religious charities? What would happen to me if I stopped? Now, what would happen to me if I held back, in some way, my portion of entitlement ‘donations?’
[/quote]Pictures please. That may not be enough.

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Too bad our leaders in government don’t hold the vision of Divine Providence like they used to — not PC, ya know. [/quote] There exists a great revisionist account of history among conservatives that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Divine Providence is very Deistic language as many of our founding fathers were Deists or Christian Deist at best. (Admiring the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth but not believing he was more than a man) Hell, Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible divorcing Christ from the supernatural happenings in the Christian New Testament. This nation was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Biblical teachings.

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[quote]Legionary wrote:
Too bad our leaders in government don’t hold the vision of Divine Providence like they used to — not PC, ya know. There exists a great revisionist account of history among conservatives that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Divine Providence is very Deistic language as many of our founding fathers were Deists or Christian Deist at best. (Admiring the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth but not believing he was more than a man) Hell, Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible divorcing Christ from the supernatural happenings in the Christian New Testament. This nation was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Biblical teachings.[/quote] I jist can’t. Not again. Please read “Of Providence” on this page http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html#chap5 for a proper view of what “divine providence” was understood to be in the colonies. Your welcome. The shattering of any further of your delusions would be my honor. Feel free. There are people here who hate my guts and will remain silent, but who also know that THIS was what was meant even by that anti Christian pagan Thomas Jefferson. Your teachers are not helping you. Check here http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyworddesc=Providence&keyword=providence for a few dozen (or hundred) teaching sermons on providence and related theology.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Legionary wrote:
Too bad our leaders in government don’t hold the vision of Divine Providence like they used to — not PC, ya know. There exists a great revisionist account of history among conservatives that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Divine Providence is very Deistic language as many of our founding fathers were Deists or Christian Deist at best. (Admiring the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth but not believing he was more than a man) Hell, Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible divorcing Christ from the supernatural happenings in the Christian New Testament. This nation was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Biblical teachings.[/quote] I jist can’t. Not again. Please read “Of Providence” on this page THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646) for a proper view of what divine providence" was understood to be in the colonies. Your welcome. The shattering of any further of your delusions would be my honor. Feel free. There are people here who hate my guts and will remain silent, but who also know that THIS was what was meant even by that anti Christian pagan Thomas Jefferson. Your teachers are not helping you.
[/quote]

Tirib, Would it be accurate to say that you believe God has abandoned the US because the nation has turned its back on him? And that this is the cause of the current malaise , for lack of a better word?

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

Then you haven’t thought this out at all. [/quote]

Let me help you though. What happens to you because you’re not giving money, food, clothes, and time to my religious charities? What would happen to me if I stopped? Now, what would happen to me if I held back, in some way, my portion of entitlement ‘donations?’
[/quote]

What if I decided I no longer wanted to support people’s right to own property?

What if I no longer wanted to obey traffic laws and wanted to drive wherever I wanted?

What would happen to me if I stopped supporting these lawss?

If your point boils down to following the law is the equivalent to having a gun pointed to your head then we constantly have guns pointed to our head.

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

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[quote]Neuromancer wrote:Tirib, Would it be accurate to say that you believe God has abandoned the US because the nation has turned its back on him? And that this is the cause of the current malaise , for lack of a better word?
[/quote]I haven’t given up hope yet, but that is embarrassingly obvious to anyone who actually believes the bible interpreted in it’s historical contexts. In other words, actually believes what it actually says. In further other words, relatively few left in this nation. “Christian” has been redefined to include anybody who says “Jesus” just like “American” has been redefined to include anybody who emerged from the birth canal inside her borders. Both have specific historical definitions that are rapidly being buried under the stinking ideological mass grave of modernist revision. As evinced most recently by our new Legionary friend here.

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Please, a link to a Christian website does not prove anything. Is it so disconcerting to think that people, more specifically the founders of this nation, can believe something outside your narrow minded codex? “…the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…” This is from the Declaration of Independence and is plain to anyone with half a brain that Nature’s God is referring to the God of Deism, not Yahweh. The man wasn’t a polytheist that can be agreed upon hopefully. Does it bother you that Christianity borrowed heavily from ancient religions and pagan traditions?

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

Then you haven’t thought this out at all. [/quote]

Let me help you though. What happens to you because you’re not giving money, food, clothes, and time to my religious charities? What would happen to me if I stopped? Now, what would happen to me if I held back, in some way, my portion of entitlement ‘donations?’
[/quote]

What if I decided I no longer wanted to support people’s right to own property?

What if I no longer wanted to obey traffic laws and wanted to drive wherever I wanted?

What would happen to me if I stopped supporting these lawss?

If your point boils down to following the law is the equivalent to having a gun pointed to your head then we constantly have guns pointed to our head.

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

[/quote]

Because there is nothing compassionate about me kicking your ass when you want to steal from me or are heading for a head on collision because you felt that driving on the wrong lane would be just swell.

If cops kick your ass in my name, still no compassion to be seen.

To use the very same mechanism in the name of compassion if it is nothing but blatant theft to rob Peter to pay Paul is a but much.

Also, and this idea is rather old, virtue is either voluntary or it is not at all.

Free giving = compassion.

Forced giving = compulsion.

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

[/quote]

All the wonderful verses about charity deal with actual charity. Charity doesn’t involve pointing guns at people.

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[quote]Legionary wrote:
Please, a link to a Christian website does not prove anything. Is it so disconcerting to think that people, more specifically the founders of this nation, can believe something outside your narrow minded codex? “…the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…” This is from the Declaration of Independence and is plain to anyone with half a brain that Nature’s God is referring to the God of Deism, not Yahweh. The man wasn’t a polytheist that can be agreed upon hopefully. Does it bother you that Christianity borrowed heavily from ancient religions and pagan traditions?[/quote]Listen friend. This isn’t your fault. You have 10 posts. Look around please. ALL of this has been addressed by me and others a million times. Seriously. No sarcasm, no jabs. You WILL NOT bring any new “GAAAASP” inducing information to the game here. Been done… all of it… to death. I haven’t heard an argument against Christianity new to me in well over 20 years. You won’t bring it. I promise. Please look around.

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

And yes you do. Or you wouldn’t bother to support wealth redistribution as it would be completely unenforceable. People would ignore the tax man and give (or not) to who and what they wanted. You support taxation and redistribution precisely because of the force component. Otherwise, you’d simply support private giving, viewing unenforceable entitlements as a redundant waste of time.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

[/quote]

All the wonderful verses about charity deal with actual charity. Charity doesn’t involve pointing guns at people.

[/quote]

So when the CDN gov’t gives millions of $ in aid to African nations, it would be incorrect to say Canadians are charitable since its source was taxation?

Gotcha. I disagree.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I do not consider taxation to help the disenfranchised akin to having a gun pointed at someone or oneself.

[/quote]

And yes you do. Or you wouldn’t bother to support wealth redistribution as it would be completely unenforceable. People would ignore the tax man and give (or not) to who and what they wanted. You support taxation and redistribution precisely because of the force component. Otherwise, you’d simply support private giving, viewing unenforceable entitlements as a redundant waste of time.[/quote]

Then I support many things at the barrel of a gun. And so do you.

78

Not against Christianity per se, but against a naive and arrogantly perpetuated view that God takes interest in the affairs of men and nations (Even a “Christian” one like our beloved United States) and actively takes sides in their support or opposition? We are 1 nation on 1 planet in a galaxy of 200 billion stars and a Universe of over 100 billion galaxies and you really think a Universal Creator really cares about such things so ultimately trivial to God-self? But hey, feel free not to respond to my argument and brush it aside saying its been discussed before.

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[quote]Legionary wrote:
Not against Christianity per se, but against a naive and arrogantly perpetuated view that God takes interest in the affairs of men and nations (Even a “Christian” one like our beloved United States) and actively takes sides in their support or opposition? We are 1 nation on 1 planet in a galaxy of 200 billion stars and a Universe of over 100 billion galaxies and you really think a Universal Creator really cares about such things so ultimately trivial to God-self? But hey, feel free not to respond to my argument and brush it aside saying its been discussed before.[/quote]

But God knows like, everything Dude…

Anyhow, I am against the naive and arrogant view that God does not care.

Kind of works both ways.

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

[/quote]

All the wonderful verses about charity deal with actual charity. Charity doesn’t involve pointing guns at people.

[/quote]

So when the CDN gov’t gives millions of $ in aid to African nations, it would be incorrect to say Canadians are charitable since its source was taxation?

Gotcha. I disagree.[/quote]

Yeah take that up with Aristotle.

Hint: He is right, you are not.